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Old 06-25-2009, 09:28 PM   #16  
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Ms Niecy, the term "starvation mode" was coined in the mid 1940s with the release of the Minnesota Study -- a study designed to test the psychological and physiological effects of calorie restriction. |The participants were objectors to the war who decided to participate in the study. Wikipedia covers the study quite nicely:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneso...ion_Experiment
and this is a really interesting article that interviews the participants, too:
http://americanradioworks.publicradi...s/wwii/a1.html

Really interesting stuff!

Kira
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Old 06-25-2009, 09:31 PM   #17  
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http://www.healthscience.org/index.p...log&Itemid=267

Just a little article I came across on the topic of "starvation mode".

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Old 06-25-2009, 09:44 PM   #18  
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Hi there! I've seen this too. It is important to note, too, that the Minnesota Study was in reality a "mild to moderate" calorie restrictive diet, not a 200 calorie a day type of diet. And perhaps the most interesting results were behavioural rather than physiological. If I'm not mistaken, the behavioural results of the Minnesota study form some of the foundation for anorexia and bulemia disease studies and treatments today.

I still sure would love to know why my weight loss stopped for 6 weeks on 452 calories a day while exercising!!! And at that time, I still had 40 pounds of fat on me!!! And believe me, I was 100% on plan -- it was costing me $250 a WEEK for the diet plan (none of it was pre-packaged food; it was all homemade and fresh which I made from scratch after buying the groceries -- yup, meals NOT included in THIS plan...) and needles of B12 in the butt daily...And I was in a constant ketogenic state throughout!!! NEVER again...I learned my lesson...

Kira

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Old 06-25-2009, 10:43 PM   #19  
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Robin, that pretty much sums it up. No exercise for me, lol. I won't lie about it or try to over-estimate it. I didn't move. I couldn't move. I was in pure agony.

I do have one teeny tiny problem with the article:

Quote:
Now, it is possible that a medical condition, like hypothyroid could contribute to a slowed metabolism. However, if someone was to have a thyroid problem, it is easy to diagnose and can be easily treated. But, then we are right back to my points above and dealing with an energy balance issue.
Okay, I agree that it is easy to diagnose AND that it is more an issue of energy balance. A diagnosis can come from VERY simple tests. However, it is not easy to GET the diagnosis, nor the testing at times. There is so much controversy over the lab ranges, controlled study participants, meds, etc. I won't say I am even remotely well-versed with the nutrition/fitness area (trying though! lol), but I have been told by more than a couple of docs that I knew far more than them about the process of thyroid disease, go see a specialist. Ok, I did that. What I found was that most specialists (endocrinologists) do not recommend nor prescribe one of the two meds that I am on that contains the biologically active form of thyroid hormone (T3, long story). It takes most patients A LOT of doctor-shopping to find one who hasn't been brain-washed or courted by certain pharmaceutical companies and sometimes even the university in which they graduated. I got the meds I needed and some of the weight came off. Not all. The exercise and healthy eating has to take care of the rest.

But as Jay stated and the article you cited convey, "starvation mode" (or whatever you want to call it) literally has to have a component of no exercise.

Kira, I have no idea or at least anything I can logically come up with as to why your weight stalled. I never want to take the route that Jeff (the probably well-meaning, nice guy who wrote the article that Robin cited) by saying "hey, you are either lying about your intake or lying about your output" even though it does happen. As in my case (of course the thyroid could have been the only cause, but I doubt it) I am not sure why I am now eating more than I did before yet losing weight. Maybe we can say the exercise has a lot to do with it. But: I was eating 1200 calories or lower a day, give or take with no exercise yet not losing weight. I am now eating on average 1450-1480 (something like that) calories a day and burning maybe 500 if you go by my bike and treadmill read-out. But it is probably more like around 350. So if you subtract the 350 from 1450, that leaves about 1100. Right around back to where I started???? It is not making sense, very confusing, but it sure is interesting!
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Old 06-25-2009, 10:59 PM   #20  
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I'll tell you, at $1000 a MONTH for the diet plan, I couldn't afford to NOT succeed. And my experience was actually quite common at the clinic, which was surprising to me. So, for whatever reason, and regardless of the contradictory research and multitudes of articles out there, I personally believe that unless I get adequate calories while exercising, my weight loss will slow drastically.

What is really interesting to me is that I was on Medifast for a while. That program SPECIFICALLY states that you need to LIMIT your exercise while on its very low calorie meal plan, or else your weight loss will SLOW (45 minutes a day, moderate activity). Now, I know it is a commercial plan and I know that plans will tell you anything, but I just find it interesting that this is their recommendation and they make it based on their experience and feedback from their clients. And on their online forum boards, there are TONS of posts about people who exercise beyond the intensity and duration recommended by the plan and whose weight loss slows drastically. Go figure! I never slowed down on that plan but I made sure I DIDN'T exercise at all!!! Which meant I was on a diet, not changing my lifestyle. Which is why I regained all the weight


So NOW, I am changing my lifestyle. For me, my path chosen involves making sure I have enough calories IN to continue to lose weight while incorporating exercise. And if my weight loss slows, I tend to ease up on the exercise or up my intake. I know. Completely based on superstition. Not based in science. Not based in logic. Kind of nutty, actually. And the maintainers who have been successful with a different path have every right to confront this anecdotal evidence based on their experience and knowledge base. But it seems to work for me. And this time around, I'm down 71 pounds as of today during my time on WW without a plateau!
And if you do the math, I eat 25 WW points a day on average (well within my limits, which is approximately 1400 calories a day including my Flex points) and I do Hot Yoga for 90 minutes each and every day. And I lose on average just over 1 pound a week (I'm steady at 5 lbs a month. I've never lost more than that.). Seriously. I would have expected 3 pounds a week based on the numbers, but weight loss just isn't mathematical.

I guess it is like those hockey playoff rituals the players have -- you know, they don't shave during the playoffs so their luck isn't broken! No science involved but they all do it!!!

Whatever works for you is the best.



Kira

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Old 06-25-2009, 11:12 PM   #21  
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Quote:
I personally believe that unless I get adequate calories while exercising, my weight loss will slow drastically.
I believe without a shadow of a doubt that the same holds true for me. But I have to do both. No low cal/no exercise, no high cal/exercise. Apparently, it has to be low to moderate cal/exercise for me.
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Old 06-26-2009, 02:32 AM   #22  
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Wow, Kira, that's almost scary to hear! I can't imagine living on 452 calories, much less doing it and NOT losing weight.
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Old 06-26-2009, 05:57 AM   #23  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurasky View Post
Wow, Kira, that's almost scary to hear! I can't imagine living on 452 calories, much less doing it and NOT losing weight.
Never mind arguing starvation mode/no starvation mode, I must be totally naive, because I never even knew that any one out there could charge so much money for providing so little - in every sense of the word.

Kira my love - what were you thinking ? I'm glad that little *experiment* only lasted 6 weeks. And if that is what propelled you to do it "right" this time - well then I guess it was there for a reason.

I can't help myself - those folks at the clinic - should be shot or put in jail. Or both. Or something. Anything. Lots of thing in fact. Someone - do something to them.
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Old 06-26-2009, 06:11 AM   #24  
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Yeah... Some doctor that was... Needs to have his license yanked...

Just curious, Kira--was the 7-mile walk to and from the clinic part of the program?

I'm just an experiment of one, but I can tell you that from my experience, 1100 net calories when physically fit works differently from 1100 net calories when sedentary and obese.

The main thing is patience. Trying to create too big a deficit, not eating enough, exercising too much--most people tend to do these things in an effort to lose fast. It is better by far to make these changes slowly and in a healthy way.

Jay
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:45 AM   #25  
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Hey all! The clinic in question actually has an ad on this site

What was I thinking? Well, I'd been to WW and got down from 212 lbs to 158 lbs, but "took a break" and gained right up to 244 lbs. I went back to WW and got down to 221 lbs but it took FOREVER. I was desperate. I wanted to lose the weight once and for all and FAST. I'd been on WW before and thought that 1/2 to 1 1/2 lbs per week (which is historically my pattern) was too slow. I fooled myself to think that I could lose the weight and THEN focus on healthy eating. An MD ran this program, so I thought it had credibility. I followed a pattern that I had followed for pretty much my whole life prior, from the Stillman Diet at age 12 (!) to the Grapefruit Diet to, well, pretty much every plan out there. I was looking for the quick fix that would work forever.

As for the walk, it actually WASN'T part of the diet plan at first. The diet plan was a very low calorie diet that had some carbs but mostly proteins and water. We had long, LONG lists of OK foods and forbidden foods. We had to write down what we ate and have it checked every day at the clinic. We had to bring in pee samples EVERY DAY and have them checked for ketosis levels. And if you weren't in ketosis at a moderate to high level, food groups would be eliminated.
My typical day was:
6 egg whites, 2 tbsps diced tomatos , mushrooms, onions
1 apple, 1 slice bread, 1 tsp fat free cream cheese
salad with mushrooms onions and 2 sprays fat-free dressing
3 oz chicken breast, 1 cup green beans or broccoli or caulliflour

That's it. That's all. At the end, I wasn't allowed the fruit anymore because I wasn't losing weight fast enough. They also eliminated the bread and the cream cheese. And tomatoes. And the green beans. And the fat-free dressing.

At that point, I stopped losing weight. And there were NO more food groups to eliminate. I discussed this with the MD in charge, and she said to up the exercise. I decided to walk to and from the clinic, 3.5 miles each way. It just about killed me. Because I was upping the exercise, she allowed me one apple a day. I was so HAPPY!! I'd eat this apple on my walk home because I was feeling really, really faint after just a mile. So, at this point, my typical day was:

6 egg whites, mushrooms, onions
green salad with mushrooms, onions, no dressing
1 apple
3 oz tuna packed in water, 1 cup boiled broccoli

At that point I thought THIS IS CRAZY!! How many calories am I REALLY eating? When I did the actual calorie count, it came to a whopping 452 calories per day averaged over 14 days. I brought this point up to the nurse and said that the program claims 900 calories a day, so where were my missing 448 calories? And she said that the needle of vitamin B12 gave me the rest of the calories!!! Which was ridiculous. After THAT I was summoned to a conference between the MD in charge, the nurse and myself, and was told that my attitude sucked and that my compliance was poor!!! I held it together until the meeting was over, but I cried the entire way home (between bites of my apple! ) because DARN IT, I WAS compliant! I HAD DONE EVERYTHING that was asked! I was in ketosis EVERY SINGLE VISIT -- I never had a non-positive urine test for ketone bodies! I was paying $50 a visit without results!!! And clearly it was ALL MY FAULT. It was CRAZY!!! And crazy-MAKING. And my A$$ hurt from all the needles.

So, at that point, I left the diet, at 171 lbs. The clinic has a no-refund policy for pre-paid plans. I didn't even have the energy to fight for the $500 left on my program. I lost that too. And without the skills to manage food, I regained 30 of the 50 lbs I lost to 201 lbs, back up to just slightly lower than where I was when I started, in a matter of WEEKS.

So I got desperate again! I didn't want to regain it ALL!! I had to do SOMETHING FAST, RIGHT NOW!! I paniced. I then went to Medifast!!! I lost the same 30 lbs quite quickly, but again, couldn't sustain the diet. I didn't exercise AT ALL on that program, and didn't plateau. But I made darn sure that I was completely sedentary. I got down to 171 lbs, went on vacation, and kept with the vacation all the way back UP , but this time, again to my pre-Medifast weight plus 1 pound. PANIC!!! I had to reassess WHAT THE HECK I WAS DOING. Do I EVER learn??? And this cycling between severe dieting and essentially binging clearly wasn't productive, nor healthy, nor effective in the long run. I decided that I had to address my LIFESTYLE, and not just the numbers on the scale. These quick plans taught me NOTHING about how to manage food for the rest of my life, and I sure wasn't in any great shakes cardiovascularly.

Well, I looked at all the plans, and on January 2nd of this year, I chose to return to WW at 202 lbs, which had worked for me in the past, and decided to focus on the lifestyle COMPLETELY. The diet and exercise are PART of the lifestyle. But the scale numbers aren't the be-all and end-all of this program. I equate SUCCESS with being OP and exercising. I'm now back down to 173.5 lbs, and this has taken me 6 months. And I'm at my traditional PANIC weight!!! But this time, I intend to stay the course. To do something I've never done before, which is be PATIENT and to focus on the lifestyle, not the numbers.

And just as a side note, about 10 years ago I lost alot on WW. I went from 221 lbs to 158 lbs. I lost an average of 6 lbs a month. I stayed in my plan, and I exercised like crazy. My typical day at the end (before I thought that I "deserved to take a break" ) was 25 WW points. My exercise plan was this:
days 1-5: walk to and from work 3 miles each way (total 10 km walk) PLUS a daily run rotating between 5 km (easy day), 5 km (fartlek), 8 km (distance), 5 km (easy day), 5 km (fast) PLUS 1 hour aquafit class at the local Y in the evening.
day 6: long distance run (12-15km)
day 7: rest.

And with ALL that exercise and on 25 WW points, I averaged a 1.5 lb loss a week. And I was younger than when I was on Medifast.

On Medifast, some 8 years LATER and OLDER, on 900 calories a day, no exercise, I averaged a 3 lb per week loss.

Go figure...

Kira

ps. I have my ticker at 244 lbs because, darn it, I "earned" every single one of those pounds when I started this journey at my all-time high!!! Even though I have been on a number of plans, this HAS been a very long and frustrating path!!!

Last edited by kiramira; 06-26-2009 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:10 PM   #26  
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They had an ad on THIS site? That's just sick, that they did that to you, Kira. No one deserves that. That is NOT HEALTHY. I don't think that their clinic should be advertised on 3FC at all, because it doesn't seem like anything that 3FC stands for, so to knowingly have such an ad up is going against its very principles. To have it up in naivity is one thing, but now that the truth is known...
I just can't believe you had to go through that. I'm so glad you're doing it the right way now. And I'm glad that you're okay.
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:38 PM   #27  
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ive hadtrouble, past month, eating at all. For like a week, in the afternoon, i just felt sick after i'd eat. Just uncomfortable. I've gotten into the good habit of not grabbing things from the fridge, when i dont need to but its crossed over into when i do need to eat something. I kinda look at food and... well just dont want it, comsumed with guilt, even if i eat a salad wrap, think of the calories in that tortilla wrap, think how disgusting that lettuce is.. ah food has become an obsession, but instead of comsumig, i try to avoid it
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:45 PM   #28  
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I can't believe you went through all of that! I'm so sorry.

I know what you mean about patience. That's what I'm struggling with right now. The days just don't pass by fast enough, I have to force myself to not check the scale like twice a day (what am I expecting? to suddenly drop 50 lbs? lol).
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Old 06-26-2009, 02:38 PM   #29  
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I tend to get this thought in my head that... well, if I didn't eat as much that I would lose weight faster. I know I should be eating, but sometimes I just can't convince myself that some oatmeal, cereal, etc would make me feel better than not eating anything at all.
Sad, but true.


*Jinksie, I am right there with ya!

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Old 07-08-2009, 03:48 PM   #30  
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I am experiencing the same thing....I made the wonderful mental switch that food is no longer my best friend but now I seem to view all food as my worst enemy I KNOW this is wrong and I KNOW when I skimp on calories overall during the day I am not following my weight loss plan correctly but that doesn't make it any easier. Thankfully my partner is very good at making sure my meals are supplemented with yogurt and fruits and additional calories but personally I just can't get away from analyzing everything I put in my mouth.

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