It isn't an issue of being "anti-buff", guys. It is an issue of making a goal of something most people are unable to attain and which in this case is clearly in line with the fantasy comic-book industry and which is unhealthy! If you have been seeing Tosca Reno's show, it becomes pretty clear that the bodies photographed in the Oxygen-like magazines are at the peak of their physique usually after at least 12 weeks of egg white and chicken/low to no carb diets followed by dangerous levels of dehydration to get that "shredded look". The photos are taken, the models come off their diets and the abs and ripped look disappears. But the plastic bosoms stay. And then we see the air-brushed cover of the magazine and think "I SHOULD look like that!!!". And then we place value-judgments on our food (is my diet CLEAN? or DIRTY? and ALL that this implies follows), hit the gym, maybe see a hint of abs, and wonder why we just can't look like Barbarella with implants on 'roids. After all, this is what they look like on the cover of my fitness magazine...

My point is this: we can all be fit. We can all eat healthily, we can all live a life, we can all aspire to be as fit as we can be. But to suggest that you can see abs under an off-season 15%+ bodyfat in the manner that the airbrushed models display is plain old wrong.

Here is a link to an article from MsFit, written my Kim Sessions (bodybuilder, in the fitness industry since 1988) that explains WHY one can't look like a fitness model all the time:

http://forums.isteroids.com/womens-a...model-yet.html

The salient point includes:

The Truth
The finely-tuned physiques you see displayed in the fitness magazines are ladies in “peak” condition. Peaking is a temporary condition in which the body fat is reduced to very low levels, often times dangerous levels, so the muscle detail is predominantly visible. Most ladies in peaked condition are anywhere from 8-10% body fat, sometimes lower. The peaking process involves specific training and dieting methods, and is usually done for physique shows and photo shoots. In addition, a peaked physique is a severely dehydrated physique, posing health risks.

Classification Female Male
Competition Condition 6-12% 3-7%
Athletic 12-18% 8-13%
Normal 19-24% 14-14%
Borderline 25-31% 18-25%
Overweight 32% + 26% +

This conditioned look is not something that is usually preserved year around. Granted, many ladies will have a good athletic and lean look all year, but it is difficult and unwise to keep such a low degree of body fat year around.

Fitness competitors put a LOT of work into their physiques. They train all year for muscle size and density, and then diet for months on end to lower their body fat and to get cut. It’s difficult to keep such a low body fat and muscle detail all the time. It's really not a glamorous lifestyle, unless you like continual detailed diet and training. I've competed for 7 years, and it is an exhausting chore to get cut, much less stay that way year around. Low body fat wears on you, puts a strain on your immune system, and leads to metabolic downgrade.

This IS the reality of the fitness industry -- just watch what Ms Reno is going through -- her hubby Robert Kennedy said on last week's show that he STRIPS HER DOWN and PHOTOGRAPHS her every single day to show her where her flaws are and where she has to improve to be competitive. Every. Single. Day. Then, when she is in peak condition, after the diet, she does a whole bunch of photo shoots and the photos are released over a long period of time. The photos are published in magazines, and we all think this is how she looks all the time. And we strive to emulate it! Crazy!!! Our ideal is to be unhealthy?? I can do THAT at 244lbs..

So, IF this is your goal, more power to you. But I find it sad that this "ideal" is such an extreme and is unattainable by the average person with kids and a job outside of the fitness industry, and is idolized (dictated?) by those who can only draw their fantasies (and we strive to fulfil it!). And that most, if not all, of these ladies who work so HARD in the industry and put their health at risk do so in order to look like cartoon characters.

And it is no different than working hard to attain the other extreme--wanting to look like a runway model whose BMI is 16. What have we ALL said about the "herion chic" Calvin Klein models of the 90s? And what would we say to someone on this forum who says "I am working hard to look JUST like Calista Flockhart when she was at her tiniest"? Or "I really admire the way the model below looks. She is working in Paris on the runways! I'm going to diet and exercise and get there too..."?

So to me, the pursuit of the fitness model extreme is no different. Both are unhealthy extremes that are held up by their industries as an ideal that women should pursue.

JMHO

Kira

I just want a flat stomach. Like Gwen Stefani. Not hard, but soft and flat....

Can I ask if you have ever been in a fitness competition or do you know friends that enter fitness competitions? Do you eat very healthy and lift heavy weights (ie. with an Olympic bar) 4-5x per week?

I suspect the answer is no because the things you are saying are not the reality of the fitness lifestyle.

I know of many women with well-defined abs at 15+% bodyfat and trust me, they all have jobs and kids too. Myself included. You can quote whatever random things you want to support your argument, but you forgot all the parts where women do this because they ENJOY fitness and eating very healthy.

I don't have an issue with people living a healthy lifestyle. I believe I made that point, but I will say it again:

My point is this: we can all be fit. We can all eat healthily, we can all live a life, we can all aspire to be as fit as we can be.

I think we are comparing apples and oranges. At 15% body fat, you are at an athletic body fat percentage, not at a competition body fat level. Which is great. Your healthy body fat and lifestyle is working for you. You are clearly a proponent of a healthy lifestyle. As am I.

What I AM saying is that to idealize a body type which exists for only a matter of moments is just, well, plain old wrong. And sad. IMHO. And that the physical appearance of the fitness industry model in the magazines is cartoonish and not obtainable without becoming unhealthy (I'll take Ms Session's word for it. And Tosca Reno's, too). And usually through surgery. That's all. And we would say the same thing about those striving for the ideal at the other end of the spectrum.

Kira

ps -- YES, one of my best friends was the winner of our provincial Ms Fitness/Figure competitions a few years ago. She said when she looked her BEST, she was actually at her WEAKEST because of her egg white/chicken breast diet and severe dehydration...but the mags still took lots of photos for their future publication because they knew and she knew that the way she looked would last all of a few days...

My body fat is somewhere around 18% right now, when I took the pictures that are in the link off my signature it was at 20% I believe. I'm healthy, I eat mostly healthy but nowhere near clean, I currently have muscle definition in my arms and legs and can see ab definition. And could see it at 20%. No, they aren't the tight six pack abs of some of these women pictured, but I can definitely see the definition without the 10% body fat. Yes, I lost all of my last several pounds of weight in my boobs and bought myself new ones, but I wasn't lifting weights at the time like a crazy person or aspiring to a fitness model body. I was just losing the last few pounds. I didn't add in the strength training until after I reached goal and had already lost the boobies - at greater than 20% body fat, probably closer to 23% and they were already gone. I'll never target 10% body fat, but will continue to work on my abs and maintain my current level of muscle tone. I enjoy the fitness and the healthy eating.

I know people who compete in fitness competitions and they don't live the starved, unhealthy lifestyle that you are describing Kira. And, I don't know that most women in this thread, or the ones that post in our weight and resistance training forum, are aspiring to be the super cut, over the top fitness model look like you are using in your examples. You use a lot of absolutes in your posts in trying to hammer home your point. Well, yours isn't the only valid point of view. Sacha, Tomato, NakedMango & LandonsBaby aren't espousing a dangerous, unhealthy lifestyle. Your posts read to me like one can't work towards a fit, muscular appearing body without aspiring to the unhealthy lifestyle you describe. That is patently untrue and unfair to say to women who are reading this post and considering weight lifting. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the women pictured in this thread aren't at 10% body fat, either.

I suggest this thread as an insight into the misconceptions that people may have about this lifestyle:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=117149511

Well said, Shannon.

Sigh..

AGAIN:
My point is this: we can all be fit. We can all eat healthily, we can all live a life, we can all aspire to be as fit as we can be.

Clearly, we can all have our own opinions! And you can emulate whomever you choose. I'm not criticizing anyone nor their posts. So just to say this AGAIN: I am NOT talking about the fitness lifestyle. I never was. I am talking about the EXTREME being taken as the ideal.

I guess I just think too much. I still think it is sad to idealize an extreme, no matter what end of the spectrum. This is more of a philosophical point. I find it hard that we as women are so hard on ourselves because they don't meet what they see as the standard of "ideal". And this ideal is not. realistic.

Train however you want. Believe whatever you want. If you SERIOUSLY think that the fitness models in the magazine photos are healthy, well, that's your choice. If you SERIOUSLY believe that the fitness competitors who place in the Ms Fitness/ Ms Olympia Figure competitions got there with a healthy, balanced diet and without ANY extremes dietary-wise, then that's your choice. If you want to look like one of them, that's your choice. If you seriously, seriously want to compete and want to compete seriously and be in the running, belly on up to your chicken breasts and egg whites and dehydrate yourself FOR THE SAKE OF MEETING THE COMPETITION IDEAL. I know! Not everyone does this!!! This is the extreme. I get it.

BUT, there are VALID reasons for discussing the extreme and the idealization of the extreme and when the extreme becomes the "societal norm" of what beauty or physical "perfection" looks like. Which is what I was discussing. The extreme. Not the individual who goes out and exercises or lifts weights or is at a great body fat level. THE. EXTREME. And what it does to us, and our young daughters, and nieces, and sisters, and the little girl across the street, who think that because this is what they SEE at the grocery store checkout every freaking day, this is what they need to be. That this is what the perfect body is. That they really want to have DDs and a 22 inch waist and 10% body fat. Thinking-wise. With the magazine covers and fitness columns and the competition stats and the "10 new ways to define your calf muscle" and "lose 10 pounds in 10 days" and "blast away the fat for the summer". I'm NOT talking about the Gillians and Bobs of the world.

Honestly...

And I doubt I'd be facing such "resistance" if the extreme we were discussing were the 5'10" 108 lb runway models, or the poor Brazilian model who died of a heart attack a while back who weighed in at 88 lbs. And those who want to look just like them. And the role-models that these ultra-thin fashion models have become, with THEIR magazine covers, and articles, and high-fashion photo shoots that you ALSO see at the checkout counter every freaking day...

Sigh...

Kira

Nobody here is advocating an extreme. The "muscular" women that were originally discussed were Linda Hamilton, Hilary Swank, or Jessica Biel. Those are achievable figures through a heavy weight lifting regime and "clean" (I don't care for that term) diet. Nobody here said they want to look like Jamie Eason while on stage. Nobody who is actually into that lifestyle thinks they can look like Jamie Eason on stage or dehydrates themselves for more than 2 days once a year. They KNOW that.

There are people who are ignorant or having eating disorders in every "lifestyle", whether it be fitness, South Beach, Weight Watchers, whatever.

Seriously?

For someone who complains about extremes, you seem to really perpetuate them. I can't believe you are comparing a fitness model cover shoot to an anorexic teen model at 88lbs.