If you want to badly enough, you can grow feathers and wings
You don't have feathers or wings
Therefore, you must not want it badly enough
______________

the argument about fat is logically the same. Does that mean that motivation doesn't play a role in weight loss? Certainly, not, but it isn't the ONLY role, and how much of a role it plays varies tremendously from person to person and even situation to situation.

I do not "want it" more than I did when I was younger. I can convince myself that I do, but I would be very wrong. I remember the desperation and the willingness to do "anything." I am much more selective in what I am willing to do, and no longer willing to do "anything."

It was only accidental, not a result of my intense searching and efforts, that I found out the hormonal and carbohydrate link to my ravenous, freakish, appetite. If I had not discovered either, I would still be at least 35 lbs heavier. I say it has taken me three years to lose 50 lbs, but I recently descovered that it was less than a year ago that I saw the doctor who helped me discover both of these factors. So it didn't take me 3 years to lose 50 lbs. It took me two years to lose maybe 12 - 15, and I lost 35 or more in less than a year. It was only the accidental loss of a few pounds (off work because of disability, not sitting next to the vending machine, less stress, more sleep - no effort whatsoever to lose those pounds. No effort whatsoever) that inspired me to suspect I might be able to lose more, and inspired me to consult with the weight loss clinic, even though I knew I couldn't afford it. I didn't have much hope (or even desire) because I was so SURE that I couldn't lose weight, but figured "what the heck." I had no idea it would change my life.

I had asked doctors about the birth control stacking since my early 20's when I first heard you could skip periods. I'd always been told it wasn't something I should mess with (all male doctors), so I didn't try. It wasn't lack of motivation or desire that kept me from doing so, it was respect for my doctors' professional opinions.

It wasn't lack of desire that kept me from trying a low carb diet, it was the "common wisdom," and my doctors' professional opinions that kept me away from such a food plan. That and a couple of VERY bad experiences with very low carb diets (Atkins induction, for example) on those few occasions I was desperate enough to "risk my health" - because that's what I thought I was doing.

It was pure coincidence that I found a doctor I respected highly, because of my contact with her when she was doing walk-in clinic duty (in our hospital, all of the doctors have to periodically do clinic duty), and because she herself had lost almost 100 lbs (and her husband too) on a modified Atkins. It was she who advised me that bc stacking was perfectly safe, and that induction was not necessary to low-carb dieting. That she was the second doctor to suggest to me that I might try low-carb, inspired me to give it a try, even though I didn't have much hope of it working.

My LACK of motivation and desire IS a factor in why I haven't lost more in the last year. Quite frankly, I didn't expect it to work. Despite respecting the doctors who advised it, NOTHING had worked in the past, so I really didn't have much confidence in it.

If anything, the last year HAS been an attempt to prove these doctors wrong, to prove that I COULDN'T lose weight like this, or that I COULD lose weight the way "most" people can. It's almost been against all my efforts to the contrary that I still have lost 50 lbs. Because I keep trying (despite my now knowing that I shouldn't) to return to a calorie counting high carbohydrate diet.

I've only FINALLY completely surrendered. And, I expect my weight loss will speed up, as a result. Yes, desire and motivation play a role, but not the only role, and it is far from fair to say "if you want it badly enough, it is yours." Because for me, that has been so untrue. The more I wanted it, the crazier things I was willing to do - and it still didn't work. Because I had the information all wrong, and I wasn't allowing myself to "think outside" the societal box. I believed that low carb diets were bad. I believed that modifying my menstrual cycle was bad. Why? Because people I respected and "society" as a whole said so.

Did I finally want it badly enough to say "screw society?" NO - it was just an accidental meeting with one doctor? If I had not had that meeting, would I have lose the weight? I'm afraid to say, but I firmly believe, absolutely NOT.

I think the biggest problem with telling people that they "could lose it" if they want it badly enough, is that it says "you just don't want it." "It's all your fault." "You're an idiot." "And Insane as well."

Oh, that's not the way that the people saying it, necessarily "mean" it (though sometimes they do), but that's how it is interpreted. That's how I interpreted it, when people said it to me in the days I couldn't lose weight. And generally, it was far from motivating.

Now, if someone had told me I could lose weight without barely trying, I would have laughed. In a sense, I still laugh because I have had to try, even to lose the 35+ pounds this year, but the amount of effort (and yes, even the amount of desire) is a fraction of the desire in my 20's, and even my 30's. I have an amazing husband, so I am not dieting out of fear of being alone. I have learned to embrace "freakitude" so I'm not dieting to fit in.

It does depress me, if I dwell on it, because I KNOW that if I had discovered the hormone/carbohydrate connection at age 9 or 10 (when I first started menstruating and my weight EXPLODED), I would have escaped obesity, or at least the greater part of it. What would it have been like to have a normal life?

Can't dwell on that, because I woudn't have had MY life, and as painful as it has been, I'm rather attached to it.

Oh, I beg to differ - big time. It is most certainly NOT the same arguement.

I'm sorry, but your analogy makes zero sense to me. Zero.

The fact that others have done something, that is proof that it can indeed be done. That it can happen. Many people have lost weight. So therefore, losing weight is indeed a doable thing. I mean it's been proven.

Ummm, growing feathers and wings - not so much. I can't recall ever hearing of anyone doing this. As far as we know, it's something that can never happen. It hasn't been proven. Anyone that thinks that it can is most likely insane or an idiot. Those are your words, not mine.

I have never, ever said or even intimated that anyone is insane, or an idiot or anything remotely close to that. That would be most hurtful and more importantly, one million percent completely untrue.

I kind of have to agree with Robin here.

I don't think the feathers and wings analogy is apt. And I do believe that if you want something badly enough you can do it - not as in "miraculously make it happen" but as in "figure out a way to make it happen".

Kaplods, you obviously *wanted* it to happen or you wouldn't have kept on pursuing it - talking to various doctors, seeing the opportunity and taking advantage of it, working to figure out what worked with your body type and how you responded to different foods. You wanted it enough to continue making the effort to figure it out despite multiple past failures.

IN that sense, yes, if you want it badly enough ... you will figure out a way to make it happen.

(And if someone wanted wings and feathers badly enough, they'd find a surgeon willing to do it for them - after all, just do a google search on body modification and you'd be amazed at what's out there! :) )

.

:rofl:

Let's lighten up, folks. I don't really think we're disagreeing... It's all a matter of degree, and it's a complicated situation.

I also don't think anyone is calling anyone else anything. So, let's keep it respectful and play nice, OK? ;)

Jay

The point was not that motivation doesn't play a role. I didn't say that. But saying that a person hasn't lost weight because they just didn't want it badly enough - it can be a damaging argument. And while the person saying it may not be meaning to damage, it is within the "diet culture" for a person to take it that way. "You can do it if you really want to, and that you haven't done so proves you don't really want to," has a way of getting into a person's head in a way that says "you're not good enough, smart enough, motivated enough."

That people have lost weight, does not prove that it was motivation that was singularily or even primarily responsible. Or that if it was, that it is true for all people. Personally, because of my situation, I am actually surprised that motivation and desire had so little to do with my success or failure. If it was primarily motivation and desire, I certainly should have lost weight and maintained it much better during times in my life when my motivation and desire was at it's strongest, not when it was at it's weakest.

I lost weight despite not believing I could, or caring whether I did (at least initially). It's actually been the accidental loss of weight that reinspired me to give a rat's behind, and think it might actually be possible for me.

Of course motivation plays a role, but sometimes things (even weight gain and loss) are outside of our control. There are many times when people unintentionally and even unwillingly gain or lose weight. Sometimes, even often, motivation plays a role in overcoming the gain or loss, if desired.

I think stressing motivation and desire over other factors can be very misleading. "You can do it, if you really want it badly enough," is often accompanied by a similar, and just as misleading argument "any diet will work, if you follow it," which implies that one food plan is as good as another. A theory I have found VERY untrue for myself.

Motivation and desire are very important factors, but concluding that such a complex problem can be reduced simply to desire and motivation is misleading and potentially demotivating. Motivation and desire may be required for most people to lose weight (I would agree with that in most circumstances), but it is not sufficient to lose weight, and that is an important distinction.

I look at myself and think I have all the resources that should have made this process easier. Intelligent, well-educated, with a fair knowledge of health and nutrition (I even taught health and nutrition in a community college). Through most of highschool, I was so "motivated" that took prescription diet pills and only ate on weekends (not smart, and I even knew it at the time, but I was not only wanting to lose weight, I was desperate to lose weight).

You can get to Ireland if you want to, badly enough
You are not in Ireland
Therefore you do not want to get to Ireland badly enough

Maybe that is a better analogy. And there might even be some truth to it. But assuming it is the desire of a person in the US to get to Ireland, if they don't know that Ireland is not on the north american continent, it's going to be pretty difficult to get to Ireland purely on motivation.

Without a good deal of knowledge on my part and the assistance of other people, no amount of motivation is going to get me to Ireland or my ideal weight.

I am not looking to argue with you.

It is clear to me that our opinions on this matter are completely different. You can not convince me of yours and I can not convince you of mine. And that's okay. There's no need to. Because afterall, we're all entitled to our own opinions.

All the best. Robin :)

I'm sorry to dredge this up again. I DO have the habit of beating a dead horse from time to time, don't I? ;) But I was just rereading this post, actually it was my DD who was reading it. And your final thought struck me.

Anyway, I realize that maybe we DO have the same opinion on the matter. I think we may in fact be on the same exact page.

I agree with you completely - motivation alone will absolutely without a doubt NOT get anyone to Ireland or even across the street. And motivation alone is not enough to get someone (or most) to their ideal weight.

There's a lot more required. A lot. :hug:

Yes, but without motivation AS WELL - no one would do anything.

It's obviously motivation PLUS action PLUS knowledge.

PLUS commitment. PLUS determination. PLUS hard work. PLUS perserverance. PLUS willingness. PLUS dedication. PLUS. PLUS. PLUS....... :dizzy:

I think discussing the mental aspect of weight loss is incredibly important, because when you lose weight, especially when you've been fat your whole life, were raised fat by fat parents or have gained weight and have been that way for YEARS, you're not just combatting calories in vs. calories out, carbs, fats etc.; you're combatting your whole LIFETIME of choices and habits and inclinations, trying to break these habits and form new ones. It's always hard to break old patterns, ALWAYS, and when it comes to something like eating, which one MUST do to survive, it is extremely hard.

This has been an interesting thread to read.
I do not believe that I can do anything I set my mind to. I doubt if I had been born without hands, I could have been a hear surgeon. (Just an example).
I do believe that there are many things I can do if I set my mind to them. But the trick is learning how. Without the correct knowledge I just seem to run around in circles.
Case in point.
I started smoking when I was 13 years old.
I have smoked on and off for 55 years. This is an off time now.
Every time I quit, I gained weight. At first I thought it was my fault. I was just eating too much. Then I thought it was my fault, I was eating the wrong foods. Then I thought it was my body's fault. Something went wacky when I quit smoking.
After quitting and gaining, a few years ago, I joined WW flex and followed the plan to the tee. My leader and the district manager both agreed that my journal was the most complete they had ever seen, and still I could not lose.
I started smoking again, and the weight fell off. (I'm not recommending smoking as a weight control). I stayed under goal for years following the core plan and smoking.
Almost a year ago, I quit smoking again. I thought I knew how to do so without gaining. I thought I knew how to eat, what to eat, how to exercise, etc.
I certainly had the desire to not gain weight. I was willing and able to follow the program as written. But here I am again. 30 lbs overweight.
So for me, mind over matter did not work.

Hi AJ,

A few weeks ago I attended a conference that reviewed the steps required for people to change behaviors (at least according to some theorists). I posted a synopsis in Maintainers, but I think that it might be a nice review for this thread as well.

My post copied and pasted from Maintainers:

There are five steps to behavioral change:
1) Awareness--How many of us had to have that "aha" moment, that look in the mirror, or a picture, or bad labs, high blood pressure? We cannot address our weight as a problem until we are aware of it.

2) Motivation---we talk a lot about motivation on here, how fleeting and unreliable it can be, but that initial push has to be triggered by a bit of excitement, an "I can do this! I want to do this!"

3)Skills--we all know that we have to learn about food, exercise, our bodies. That is such a barrier for so many. We can know that we need to change, and then we want to change, and then we think "Now what?" Grapefruit diets? 500 calories a day? Running 7 miles right off the bat? So not only the skills to get started, but the skills we learn along the way. How to navigate weddings, in-laws, business trips....Improving our knowledge of physical activities....triathalons, weights, running, bicycling...

4)Trial and error. Who has ever made a misstep on this journey? We all all all have of course. We try and succeed, we try and fail, we keep trying and changing and trying again. And that is the KEY. The willingness to keep going, to keep trying.

5) Maintenance! I almost jumped out of my chair. I think the concept of maintenance in any behavioral change has been overlooked for far too long (of course, maybe it is only now that I have been looking for maintenance info!) We all know what maintenance is....continued awareness and vigilance to keep to our new behaviors.

I think that these steps do indicate a progression of sorts, but I also believe that they are somewhat fluid. I think that we can bop along maintaining for awhile and then we start making some other choices, and we are struck by the awareness step again. Regular weighing, anyone? We need tools to keep each of these steps up front in our consciousness---or at least I do! And I keep moving through and developing these steps daily. With a lot of help from you guys!

One last thought from this guy (again he was discussing adolescents, but I thought--WOW---he really is talking about anyone facing changes and choices), so with credit and apologies to Ken Ginsburg, MD:

"Confidence gets it started. Shame paralyzes all efforts."
End of copy and paste.

So in my opinion there are many factors to behavior change and all are important. Some may wax and wane in importance. For my life right now, the most important factor is creating and practicing skills and tools.

Like Kaplods, I am well versed in nutrition. I've taken graduate level courses and could regurgitate common wisdom and the sacred cows of nutrition. But those sacred cows actually don't work for my life. If you had told me a few years ago that I would be following a lower carb, high protein diet, I would not have believed it.

I am also surprised and delighted how much of a cornerstone weightlifting is to my new lifestyle. One of the "expert" theories floating around out there is that it is hard to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. That simply has not been true for my situation. So these tools, this way of eating that is high protein, my new found love and reliance of weightlifting---neither of these were in my graduate level nutrition courses that placed such an emphasis on moderate cardio and at least 50% carbs.

I too use my birth control in a continous fashion. That has made such a difference for me, and I am so glad it has helped Kaplods as well. There is a ton of research supporting continuous cycle birth control, and even a brief perusal of the 20-something thread sheds light on how much premenstrual hormonal fluctuations effect cravings and weight. That was a tool that Kaplods couldn't have possessed ownership of without her physician's assistance.

So, yeah, I am all about tools and skills right now.

Since we have had some fun analogies on this thread, I will throw in mine. I cannot say which of these 5 steps are the most important any more than I can say which of our 5 senses are the most important. The answer is, it depends. It depends on what a person's needs are. What I need to enjoy raspberries will differ from what I need to enjoy Beethoven, and the importance of these 5 steps will vary depending on where I am in my journey....or even in my day.

Thanks for such an interesting thread. I love all this theory stuff!

midwife,

I'm writing down those 5 steps to add to my journal (along with the 7 stages of change at the end of this post).

I can so relate to them (and of course your situation). The sensory analogy, I believe is a very good one. To some degree, a weakness in one sense can be compensated for with strength in another. Animals that have poor eyesight may have excellent hearing or sense of smell. Humans have relatively weak senses (all five), but our intelligence is our sixth sense, an important survival tool, as we can adapt the environment itself to compensate for our weaknesses.

One of the greatest human strengths is our skill in finding ways to do things more easily. In a sense, it's gotten us into this mess (the "epidemic" of obesity), but it also can be used to get us out. Because it's a multi-faceted problem, it will have to be a muti-faceted solution.

My husband (sometimes a rather cynical S.O.B.) often calls people "sheep" (blind followers), not even knowing "why" they are following the herd. My husband and I are "freaks" not only in being fat, but in being a bit on the odd side in other ways as well, so I rather interpreted this as he thinking arrogantly he was not a sheep (and maybe I as well). Then one day we were discussing my reluctance to follow a low carb diet, despite having proved to myself it's the only thing that works. It just goes against everything I was taught was the "right" way to diet, and I was having trouble doing it the "wrong" way. I told him that I was having trouble not being a "sheep," and he said again "people are sheep - we all are."

It hit me like a ton of bricks that he wasn't referring to "everyone else," but to humanity itself, including himself and me in the whole fleecy, sheepy package.

Yes, I can as easily "swayed" by all of the cultural context (media, family, social institutions, cultural norms and values...) as the next person.

Change is difficult, especially if it challenges social norms, values, and ties. The alcoholic may have a family and peer group that misuses alcohol. Some find that they can still socialize with others who are using alcohol around them, others have to break ties with family and friends and try to build a new, supportive social system.

In a real way, overeaters sometimes have to do the same. I do avoid many of the familial "food fests." A good part of the reason we didn't visit my parents at Christmastime was the insane amount of sugar that was going to be in the house (and luckily some bad weather and financial difficulties gave us a great excuse - not only an excuse for the relatives, but an excuse for myself, because it would have otherwise been difficult for me to say no, guilt and all).

I've realized for myself that a strong social support is vital. It's why I spend a good deal of time here. It's priceless to have even a few people who truly understand. It's why I joined TOPS, that weekly weigh-in, the weekly support and fellowship, it keeps me on track, in a way that I can't do alone. Sometimes, when I have no motivation or desire of my own, I can borrow bit of someone else's. When I don't care what I eat, or whether I lose, I might still care about, might still want that round of applause on Monday night. I like the attention. I like being asked "how did you do it?" Sometimes I care about those things MORE than I care about losing weight and getting healthy.

OF COURSE, it's stupid, and of course it's "sheepy," but I've got to use every trick I can to get this done.

__________________________________________________ ___________
Stages of Change

Precontemplation (Not yet acknowledging that there is a problem behavior that needs to be changed)

Contemplation (Acknowledging that there is a problem but not yet ready or sure of wanting to make a change)

Preparation/Determination (Getting ready to change)

Action/Willpower (Changing behavior)

Maintenance (Maintaining the behavior change)

Relapse (Returning to older behaviors and abandoning the new changes)

Transcendence (Eventually, if you “maintain maintenance” you will reach the stage of transcendence, not only is your bad habit no longer an integral part of your life but to return to it would seem atypical, abnormal, completely out of character for the "new" you.)

Great lists, Midwife and Kaplods!

I'm copying them too!!

You may want to do some reading there to see what's been covered in previous posts.it helps me for sure