A couple of comments in recent posts have got me thinking about the issues of hunger and metabolism and calories , so I thought I’d throw this out and get your thoughts.

• Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry?
• On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal?
• Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else?
• How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)?
• Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining?
• Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)?
• Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners?

Ok, as for me, I've been struggling with the whole hunger issue lately. I think I finally understand the difference between appetite and hunger, which is I think what JC was talking about with hormonal vs. normal hunger (correct me if I’m wrong!) and I’m dealing with true hunger. I’ve lost the 125 or so pounds but would like to take it a bit lower (128.5 #, which is “half of me”) and get my body fat back to where it was pre-surgery (around 12.5%). So I’ve been cutting calories and carbs, which has always worked for me in the past. But I’m hungrier than I ever remember being before and having a hard time sticking to my plan and feeling like a failure (and the gosh-darned scale is not budging).

To answer my own questions:
Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry? In my experience, no. I was certainly hungry some, but not all of the time I was losing. But it was manageable.

On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal? Right now, yes, and I try to wait it out until the next meal.

Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else? I greatly fear that my hunger is simply my body trying to get me to regain the lost weight. I know that there are biochemical and hormonal responses to “massive weight loss” that stimulate your appetite — perhaps a reason why so many regain their lost weight. I will fight this forever but I do not think my hunger is a good sign at all.

How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)? Right now I am shooting for 1200-1300. Sometimes it ends up around 1400.

Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining? For weight loss. I think I could eat 1800 or so without gaining, but only if it was clean food and not too high carb.

Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)? Only a little. I think that LOSING a significant amount of weight lowered my body’s caloric needs.

Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners? I think cardio is better at burning off calories but that the weights are necessary, of course, to build muscle. I know I do more cardio than many but I did succeed in gaining 10 pounds of muscle while losing 135 pounds of fat, for a net loss of 125#. So it didn’t burn off all my muscle.

Please jump in and share your thoughts and experiences!

Meg

Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry? Yes. While doing BodyRX, I was never hungry; if I started to feel hungry, I ate "green carbs" or protein.

On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal? If I'm hungry I eat. I have to say I have never had emotional eating issues (well, if I am severely stressed, I just *don't* eat but that hasn't happened in many years) so I know when I am truly hungry.

Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else? Yes, and I think of that as a good thing.

How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)? Around 1900-2200. I maintain on this plus noncounted free meals thrown in.

Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining? See above.

Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)? OMG BIGTIME!!!!

Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners? Weights. I went from 23-24 % BF to 12% BF without doing a bit of cardio.

Laura

PS Meg- I think you should eat *more*. I stalled out eating as low as you are and we are about the same size aren't we?

I really want to jump in on this thread. I have noticed in the last couple of weeks that I want to eat more food. EEEk!!



Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry?

( I have to say yes, because when I eat the right combination of Protein, Carbs, and fat at each meal then I'm not hungry. I also eat every 3 hours.)

On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal?

( If I don't eat the way I should then I'm hungry sooner. Also, If I eat sugar or bread then I'm hungry sooner. I usually wait until my next scheduled meal. In the last few weeks I have raised my calories to almost 400 per meal.)


Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else?

( I think my hunger is related to increase in metabolism. I am doing heavier weights then I was 3 weeks ago.)

How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)?

( I track my calories and I have been eating 3 days at 1700 with 2 days at 2200. I am working on a plan to keep my calories closer to 1700 all the time. )

Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining?

( This is for weight loss. I went for two months with my calories at 1400 and lost less weight then when I was eating 1600 calories. I had a Body Gem fat analysis done a month ago and was told that my Metabolic rate at rest was 1740 calories. The doctor told me not to go below that or my metabolic rate would go down to compensate. So I have raised my intake to at least that amount.)

Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)?

( Oh My Yes!! Weight training has increased my metabolism.)

Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners?

( I think that you have to do them together, weights with cardio to get the best results. The weights build muscle which in turn burns more calories. Cardio raises your endurance and I have been told is the best way to metabolize fat.)

Bodypumpgirl

Oh gosh - I rarely think of my eating in terms of calories anymore - I just strive to eat 'clean' moderate portions and let the calories take care of themselves

I'm going to assume that by "hunger" you mean "Stomach" hunger rather than "mind hunger" or what you call appetite or 'hormonal hunger' (you know when you want to eat 'because it's there' not because you happen to be hungry!)

Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry?

Oh my yes. If I let myself get really hungry, I'm setting myself up for a big binge!

On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal?

Nope - my stomach clock's pretty well set by now. I'm really weird - if I get hungry (stomach hungry that is) I start sneezing uncontrollably. Dunno why!

Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else?

Could be - bottom line it's telling me that my body needs food.

How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)?

I don't track them. Sorry Meg!

Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)? Oh most definitely! That's just ONE of the benefits of bodybuilding!

Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners? I'd have to side with Laura on this one...I was a cardio bunny for years with very few changes - then when I started weight training in earnest two years ago WHAMMO - changes aplenty!

I believe that you burn calories while doing cardio - but only at that time - while muscle chews through fat 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - so greater muscle mass = higher fat burning.

Here's a great article on the subject of cardio... http://www.stumptuous.com/cardio.html

If I *had* to choose one or the other, I'd go with weight training. However cardio does have its benefits and its place in my routine - besides, I enjoy it too!

Meg - I'd say - if you're hungry - that's your body telling you to EAT. Just increase your portions a tiny bit and see what happens...Like Laura, I think your calories are a bit low - especially for as much work as you do!

I don't have time to post ... but I will be back later....

I am soooooooo hungry lately.... Today I have eaten 1851 cals, (so far) and yesterday over 2100... I've come to the deduction it's gotta be speeded up metabolism... I'm also NOT eating junk...

I agree with Karen, if you're hungry eat... but I think I have a tape worm!!

I'll come back later and answer the other questions...

Grea idea for discussoin Meg... and I'm also happy to see I'm not the only one HUNGRY lately...

Do you think it's because of the nice weather? Sure hope so!!

Toodles

* Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry?

I'm almost always hungry, and have never lost weight without being hungry. I manage it 99% of the time, the 1% when I fail is ugly.

* On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal?

I always wait- sometimes too long. I do get hungry, but have upped my carbs and calories in the past 4 days on a new plan, and it is better. Since this is a progressive cutting plan, I expect to be really hungry during the last few weeks.

* Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else?

I don't think my metabolism has increased; probably decreased if anything. I think my hunger is just the natural state for my body, if I'm not actually gaining weight. I think that some people secrete too much of whatever the hormone is that says " SEND FOOD NOW " or not enough liptin (?) which is the "OK, ENOUGH FOOD" hormone. Whether that is genetically determined or just messed up by years and years of dieting, binging, anorexia, bulemia, or both, I don't know.

* How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)?

I was eating about 1300, with a free meal or two. Now I'm eating 1600 with no free meals. That # will drop ever two weeks on this plan.

* Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining?

Weightloss, I hope! I don't know how much I could eat without gaining, because I've never been in a maintenance mode on purpose. I suspect around 1700-1800 with current activity levels.

* Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)?

I'd like to hope so, and it is the current thinking, but I've also seen some studies done at the University of MD. saying that this is not true for wormen.
God, is that ever depressing.

* Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners?

I think a combination. And don't forget really clean eating! I think the older you are, the more cardio you need. I think weights are vital for shaping the body and not looking like a flabby chick in small clothes. Particularly a middle-aged flabby chick in small clothes. I have plenty of friends my age who do loads of cardio, eat low cal but not clean, and have widening middles and butts. I may not be the smallest in the room, but I've got the tightest buns and legs, and I'm not getting the menopausal doughnut gut that they are.

mel

Thanks for the quick responses!

No question that this is real hunger but my biggest fear is that this is “false hunger” — that it is not my body telling me that it legitimately needs more food to maintain the status quo, but that it is my body desperately trying to get me to pack back on 125 pounds. I just don’t know if there is an answer to this question. I honestly don’t think that eating more is the answer. I know in what calorie range I will lose and in which one I will maintain. It may be that my metabolism is simply different due to the large amount of weight that I lost and that it needs to re-set itself. I know that you also lost a lot of weight, Karen, but perhaps your body has been able to adapt to your new weight over the years that you have maintained your weight loss.

Don’t get me wrong on the importance of muscle — I wholeheartedly subscribe to the muscle-building philosophy of weight loss. But at the end of the day, you have to use more calories than you take in to lose weight — in other words, you have to burn enough energy in a day so that you utilize some of the calories that your body has stored as fat. And cardio is simply another way to burn calories. We burn some through just maintaining our bodies, some more through our daily activities, more through working out with weights, and even more with cardio. That’s the reason why I do it.

Keep on talking — I learn so much!

Meg

Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry?

- No - personally I think especially at the beginning (where I am now), it is important to feel actual real hunger, and I don't mean starve here. I used to eat at the smallest pang so I'm learning control.

On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal?

- I'm generally always feeling like I could 'something' but not starving. Eating 5 small meals a day has really really helped me because if I'm hungry, I can wait to my next meal since it's not too far off. I can HAPPILY report that I haven't eaten any crap since I started this program. I know this won't be true forever but right now I have a very powerful tool in my hands and intend to use it!

Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else?

- Oprah said (I think) that when you feel that hunger it is a sign of your body feeding off your fat stores, could be full of it but hey, I'm willing to try.

How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)?

- I'm riding around 1100-1300. I know that BFL says I should eat more but I just can't bring myself to. I will if I stall or, if I'm really really hungry, I'll increase a meal size but will stay put for now. I can also happily report that I have increased my protein and really lowered my fat and carb intake. I'm still struggling to get in the protein but I get better every day!

Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining?

- Weight loss. I want to be either 140lbs or fitting in my size ten jeans, whichever comes first.

Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)?

- Too soon to tell, but I DO love it!

Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners?

- I think for me personally it has to be combination of both.

I learn so much here, thanks to you all!
adena

Here goes....

The jury is still out on this one for me as I still have quite a lot of weight to lose. Though lately my mind and stomach seem to be working together and I start to get hungry about 10-15 minutes before my next meal is due.

I am currently following the bfl eating plan. As I stated above my hunger rears its ugly head about 10-15 minutes before my next scheduled meal. I usually have a glass of cold water and eat at the scheduled time.


My hunger increases on weight lifting days, so I am assuming my metabolism has increased. It also happens on days when I am extremely stressed out,I try to take a water break and breathe deeply. I have to be honest though, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.

I don't track calories. Though I am thinking of using some kind of dietary software to track protein and carb grams.

Quite honestly, I would love to find out. Maybe I'll do that a little later in the game.

I believe so. But so far the scale aint agreeing with me. I am down only two lbs. in three and half months.

Here's my two cents – It is my belief that cardio burns more fat than weightlifting. Lifting weights will over time help you to increase your lean muscle mass, which in turn enables your body to burn more fat. However it takes a good few months of consistent weightlifting to increase one’s muscle mass; especially when the lifter is over a certain age or female. Imo, while your body is building this lean muscle mass it is cardio/aerobic exercise that revs up your metabolism into high gear to burn fat. The fitter you are aerobically the quicker your body turns to your fat stores for fuel. See link to an article from the John Parillo Performance website. www.parrillo.com/articles/149.pdf

Sel

Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry?
Yes, providing you eat the right foods.

On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal?
I'm following BFL, so no. I usually don't get the last meal in. But I do find that if I don't always have a starchy carb, I don't last as long in between meals.

Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else?
Could be, but I also found that if my meals were mostly carbs and/or sugar, I would be hungry again very quickly.

How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)?
I don't count them right now, but when I was, I was trying to stay around 1200.

Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining?
Meg, this link may answer your question.

Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)?
Definitely.

Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners?
Both--Doing mostly cardio didn't work for me.

I want to come back to this too when I have more time but in brief, muscle is my key to fat loss. Even in my periomenopause state, since I started seriously weight training, my muscle mass has increased immensely and while my scale weight has only reduced 27lbs, my body size is slowly but surely, decreasing.

Initially when I started Body Rx I did no cardio..that's when I made my fastest gains, strength-wise and fat loss. Since then I've added a couple days of taebo in and while I love it very much, I fear its hindering me. Too much stress on my body.

I'm still trying to get to the mindset that being hungry is good. Its still a scary concept after so many years of trying not to eat. But I don't go hungry, I learned a lot about food and nutrition this past 8 months, from people like Laura and from BodyRx and now the Schwarzbein Principle and I don't think its necessary to suffer hunger to lose weight.

Great topic, back later!

Hey you guys - home now and I just dug out of my bookshelf a book you might wanna check out - it's called "Intuitive Eating" by Evelyn Tribole, M.S., R.D. You might find it interesting...

In the book there is a list of hunger symptoms as follows:

* Mild gurgling or gnawing in the stomach
* Growling noises (from your stomach, not your dog!)
* Lightheadedness
* Difficulty concentrating
* Uncomfortable stomach pain
* Irritability
* Feeling faint
* Headache

(oh and for me, I guess you can add 'uncontrolled sneezing' to that list).

Do you think you can lose weight without being hungry?

Yes. I take the question to mean without having to go hungrry as opposed to getting hungry.

On your current eating plan, are you hungry? If so, what do you do -- eat or wait until the next scheduled meal?

Well, yes, I get hungry, but then I eat. It doesn't matter if it's meal time. I do not have to go without food if I'm hungry. On BRx we're allowed to eat when we're hungry.

Do you think that your hunger (if any) is an indication of an increased metabolism? Or something else?

Body Rx is a lot of food and it takes a while to start getting hungry again. I'm eating a ton of food on Cycle 3, but I do believe my metabolism has kicked in and I find myself very hungry! And so I eat! Either that or I'm just a natural lol...

How many calories do you think you eat in a day (if you track them -- I know a lot of people don't)?

I don't really count calories but since I track my protein/fiber I also get the calorie count. I usually eat about 1850-2200 calories, sometimes more. This does NOT include Udo's (2T), or coconut oil (702 calories per day). Add them in and it's a whole different story, but definitely one for conversation!

Is this number for weight loss or for maintenance? If for weight loss, how many more calories do you think you could eat without gaining?

This is for fat loss. I am losing both inches and pounds. I don't know how many calories I would maintain at. It isn't just about calories. I can maintain at less calories than I'm eating now and can loose at higher ones. It depends on the nutrition. BRx is about food partitioning.

Do you think that weight training has increased your metabolism (burn more calories every day)?

I know it has.

Do you think that weights or cardio or both are the best calorie burners?

Weights. No contest. Cardio isn't necessary. That said, since I can only do 1 day of weights per week right now because of my tendonitis, you'd better believe I'm doing cardio!

Meg, I agree with Laura. You need more calories. I stalled too, when my calories were about where yours are. Less is not always better. Too few calories and your body will hang on to every bit of fat. It will slow your metabolism down.

Deb

i'll also have to come back to this later to answer it properly.

i do have something that i want to say about the weight loss that makes a whole lot of sense to me. i read this in a few different places in the past few months and that's what got me to think about the whole *plateau* or *stalled* issues.

when we carry around a whole lot of extra weight for years and years our bodies get used to the situation. this is our *set-point*.

when the extra weight is lost there is a time period, anywhere from a few months to a year or even more, for the body to get completely used to the new set-point weight. some of it is physiological, some biological, some emotional and psychological. it's a whole mixture of things that come into play at this point.

during the time that it takes our bodies and minds to get used to the weight loss we need to really work on just maintaining. a *catch-up* period must be endured, so to say.

after this period, once the new lower weight has been maintained for a period of time, then it just becomes the new *set-point* for the mind, body and soul -- that's the point that Karen is at now where she doesn't even have to think of *how* to do things, she just does them and her body reacts in the correct way.

i truly believe that this is the reason why sooooo many people have such a hard time on those last few pounds of weight and body fat. Meg i think you're right when you said that your body probably wants all that weight back right now and is doing everything possible to get it back. your body hasn't had enough time to adjust to the set-point and now you want it to release even more fat....... it just might not do it right now, but it might be ready in a few months.

of course, this doesn't apply to every single person that has ever lost weight. we are all unique and each one of us has different results. but i DO think this is something important that should be taken into consideration at the point where the majority of the fat and weight has come off and we are looking for that *bit extra*.

adriana

When I sat down to read this morning (yes, with my coffee ) I was struck by the realization that no where else could I find such an amazing group of women to have this discussion with -- you are not just the Ladies Who Lift -- you are the Ladies Who Are Pretty Darned Thoughtful And Articulate too! I think that much of what we are discussing doesn't have answers and this is partially because the scientific and medical establishment doesn't put time and resources into studying such questions. You would think, given all the gloom and doom pronouncements about the rising obesity rates, that the government would be throwing money at universities to answer our questions, but no. So we are left to share our experiences, which are actually pretty helpful!

My thoughts, in no particular order:

Hunger: Karen, thanks for that list! I think it is critical to be able to distinguish between real physical hunger and psychological hunger. I still experience both, but I think that I am talking about legitimate hunger since I'm trying to keep each of my six meals to around 200 calories of mostly protein with some veggies. My personal litmus test of whether it is real is: "would you be happy eating broccoli?" (not my favorite) If the answer is yes, that I would gladly eat cat food, then it is real hunger.

I think that quite a few people were trying to make the important point that hunger before meals is natural -- it is our bodies' signal to tell us to eat. So we manage our hunger by eating small, frequent meals and it never gets out-of-control. We are never stuffed, but never starving. That's how it was for me most of the time when I was losing. Of course, I always could have gladly eaten more -- I could easily eat double the portions of food that I do. I'm frustrated now because I get hungry -- really hungry -- an hour after eating the same meal that, a year ago, would have kept me going for three hours. I also get ravenously hungry after working out and after cardio, especially the day after leg day.

Eating More To Lose: I completely agree that WHAT we eat is as critical as how much we eat -- all calories are NOT created equal. Given that I eat as clean as I know how to, the question is whether increasing the amount of clean food will somehow make me lose fat. Here's where I get stuck. To me, it's math -- the only way to lose the stored fat from your body is to get your body to burn it as fuel. To do that, you have to run a calorie deficit to make your body dip into its fat reserves. I have read that "starvation mode" is a weight loss myth; that one would have to go extremely low in calories for an extended period of time before that happened. I can't imagine being able to eat what you do, Deb, and since it is working for you, that's awesome! I truly would be afraid to try it myself, though. Many of you are far more educated on this than I am and I would appreciate your insights.

Adriana's Set Point Theory: your post made a lot of sense to me. I agree that there are many factors -- psychological and physical -- playing into this. After I reached my goal, my weight bounced up and down in a ten pound range for months for no good reason and I concluded that it was my body trying to settle in at a new, lower weight. During this time, however, my body fat dropped from 16 to 13% or thereabouts, so changes were still happening.

Mel: Geez, I think we're twins separated at birth! At least we're both 48 and menopausal/perimenopausal and I wonder how significant that is to this issue. Plus, as you said, I've never maintained a weight in my life -- it's always been gaining or losing and maybe we've totally screwed up our metabolisms. I live with a guy who I think eats "normally" -- eats when he is hungry, what he wants, in the amount that he wants, and stops when he is full (and he has always maintained a normal weight). I just think that mechanism doesn't work on me (or never existed) and that is whey I don't trust my hunger as being indicative of a true biological need for food.

Your "middle-aged flabby chick in small clothes" remark totally cracked me up because it is too true. Yeah, we will never be the smallest in the room but we may be the tightest (I hope!). I did remark yesterday to someone (I was going sleeveless at the time) that in some social situations I feel self-conscious because I no longer have "PTA mom" arms (ordinarily a good thing not to have but when you are stuck in a "ladies luncheon", you start to feel like some kind of warrior-princess who took a wrong turn somewhere).

Please keep talking about this -- I'm learning so much and I hope others will contribute their experiences.

As for me, I think what I need to do is get my BF re-done. The last time (a month ago) that I had it checked, I had 121# of lean body mass and 19# of fat. Maybe my body is just hoarding those last 19 pounds? My weight is down 6 or 7 pounds from that point, but I think it's mostly post-surgery swelling (so water, not fat) going away because it's only a pound or two lower than pre-surgery.

Meg