(Moved from the "open letter" thread)

95% of people who do kickbacks (95% of whom are women who just want to "tone", but that's another issue) do them incorrectly by swinging the weight, allowing the elbow to move around, being too upright, etc.

But, even if done correctly, there are two main problems w/ kickbacks:
a) the tension on the triceps is only for a few degrees at the top of the movement
b) in order to get enough weight to be effective (for building muscle, i.e., "toning," not for getting a burn after 45 reps), you have to add so much weight that it's hard on the elbows at the lockout at the top of the movement

Note that I didn't include "because they're an isolation exercise." There's a time and a place for isolation exercises, although usually only for advanced lifters. 99% of the people doing kickbacks (95% of whom are doing them incorrectly, and 95% of these are women ) aren't at that point.

Of course, the answer to the "are they a waste of time" question also depends on the answer to the question, "compared to what?"

Compared to sitting at home on the couch and watching TV and eating Cheezy Poofs (mmm, Cheezy Poofs!), they aren't a waste of time. Well, I suppose it depends on what's on TV.

However, I think they are a waste of time (again, for most lifters) compared to any of the following exercises, all of which work triceps.

- dips (assisted, bench, bodyweight, or weighted, depending on your level)
- French press*
- triangle pushups (hands making a small triangle, fingers touching, rather than shoulder width apart)
- cable pushdowns esp. w/ the rope attachment
- skullcrushers
- close grip bench

There may be other tri exercises I'm forgetting, but this is a decent start.

//b. strong,
Kim

*Not the gadget used to make coffee. Although that kind of French press is not a waste of time, either.

What makes the french press better than a kickback?
Seems to me that it's the same motion for the tricep. ????

Different time under tension & angle of the gravitational pull. (You can also think about the French press as being an overhead version of the cable pulldown. Not surprising, since they are all intended to work the same set of muscles.)

It's also more difficult to cheat on the French press, because if you don't keep your elbows fixed, you'll probably whack yourself in the head with the weight. Not that ahem, um, erm, I've ever cough cough done that before.

//b. strong

push ups, push ups and more push ups. Use every variation of hand position. You will get a great tricep workout as well as abs, back and overall endurance.

Exactly right about the time under tension, very short. And if you are doing any kind of weight, only 1 lifter in twenty get a full extension. Overhead tri extensions are best for the long head (careful on the elbows), close grips and french press are king for overall mass.

Hey, really appreciate your starting this thread! I saw the comment about triceps kickbacks being a waste of time and was curious for more information; this post told me everything I needed to know.

"Dips" and "French press" used to have very different meanings for me when I was a sedentary couch-weeble, so some aspects of lifting still leave me at sea. It helps a ton to have veterans offering detailed insight on the forums.

Glad to have the kickback thing clarified; I rarely did 'em and prefer dips, but now I know I can drop 'em entirely and not feel guilty.

Sometimes I feel like the learning curve for fitness is really steep, and the things we learn often seem to contradict each other. But this was helpful, interesting information presented in a way that I understood.

Thanks for taking the time to share this!