I think part of the problem with the zero point fruit is that not everyone fully understands how the fruit works within the program and they overeat it. When building your daily points, WW recommends 5 servings of fruits and veggies (like the little boxes you tick off under GHG). After that, you ARE supposed to count fruit.

Serving sizes is also a big issue as 1 serving of fruit is not an actual piece but 1/2 cup: 1 banana is 2 servings. So with that list you gave, that's, like, 18 servings of fruit.

Just because it's zero points doesn't mean it's a free-for-all, but I don't think WW does a good enough job of emphasizing that and really helping people understand that there are limitations to the zero fruit.

The ActiveLink does have a baseline that has to be met everyday before you earn activity points. I think it'll be a lot more accurate. It also puts an emphasis on moving throughout the day, not doing a workout and then being relatively inactive the rest of the day.

People don't read their materials or follow the Good Health Guidelines and then they are quick to blame WW when they don't lose. I don't see how anyone could think 18 servings of fruit in one day is something WW advocated.

I know this isn't really a thread about fruits, but I have to chime in on that piece....

So far, so good for me in terms of losing pounds (although I'm only 4 weeks in). I LOVE the notion of free fruits and vegetables! I am not "counting" these, and am freely munching away, roasting vegetables, making banana "ice cream", eating apples, etc.

I find that this really creates a mental switch for me toward whole foods and nutrition rather than processed crap (even if it is low cal/fat).

Also, i am confidant that noshing on yummy fruits and veggies prevents me from craving unhealthy foods, so my menu doesn't look like "deep fried salted sugar" with a million servings of fruit on the side.

Finally, I am quite sure that different things work better for different folks - what is sustainable, what works in your schedule, etc. I personally am geeked for the swing toward better nutrition even more than toward lower points.

Because fruit has calories. Some fruit has lots of calories. Veggies to me are less of an issue because many of them in normal servings would actually round to zero point. But, fruits have more calories. I think that zero point encourages people to eat fruit rather than junk. However, it does nothing to encourage staying within a proper balance of calories per day. Yes, I know WW suggests 5 fruit/veggie servings a day but there is no requirement to count extra servings as points. I've seen way too many people get tripped up on this and it hasn't helped their weight loss.

Exactly my point. The ActiveLink does have a baseline. Also, the pedometer has one if you are using it in all day mode.

However, for the people who don't have the pedometer or the ActiveLink (which I would think is the majority of members), they look at their materials which let you earn activity points without meeting any baseline.

Yesterday, using my ActiveLink I did a 30 minute workout on my rowing machine. The rest of that day was fairly sedentary. I was home all day, mostly using the computer. I did some laundry and a few other household tasks but didn't do a lot of walking. In the pre-ActiveLink days I would have looked at my WW materials and given myself an activity point. Both the paper materials and the online materials would have said I earned a point (in fact, almost 2 points).

But, using ActiveLink, I earned no activity points for that workout. In fact, I didn't meet baseline for the day.

I think the way ActiveLink (and the pedometer in all day mode) does it is far, far more accurate. However, I have a real issue with WW continuing to let people who don't have those devices earn activity points when they wouldn't be earning them if they were using the ActiveLink (or would be earning fewer points).

I think there are some interesting discussions here.

I've been on-and-off again with WW since losing 50lbs on it over 10 years ago. Right now I'm debating whether to do WW Online or just count calories with something like My Fitness Pal (which I'm also familar with). I like to think that the WW points system points me towards healthier food choices but I'm not sure that it does. I also like to think that free (zero point) fruits and vegetables would get me to eat more of them like I should. I don't think I'm one that would ever really over do it on fruits but even if I did, it would likely mean I'm eating fruit and not something less healthy.

I do remember a WW leader explaining that we should count points on fruit after meeting our recommended servings of fruits and veggies. So, I think it is something many are told but maybe they conveniently forget.

Well, unless it changes in the 2013 plan, there is nothing in the program that says to count fruits after getting the recommended servings. The program talks more about limiting how much you eat instead. Under the program rules, though, you don't have to count the excess (I do think it is a good idea though).

As far as WW or not WW versus calorie counting, I would say it depends. For over a year I counted both points and calories (I used MyPlate at livestrong). Currently I'm counting just WW points. Accurately counting calories particularly if you eat out a lot and eat a wide variety of foods is just more difficult than counting points. And, in the end, that is why WW has people count points and not calories. They have said that it is easier for people to work with 1 and 2 digit numbers (points) versus 3 and 4 digit numbers (calories). At Myplate (or My Fitness Pal which I also tried) I was constantly having to look up foods that were fairly obscure and having the constantly add foods to the database. It gets really tedious after awhile.

That said, I find calorie counting more accurate than Points.

For me the things that cause me to follow WW are the things you don't get with the Online program. That is, I do better with the structured weekly weigh in. When I did the Online program it was just all too easy to follow the program for for 4 or 5 days, have a bad day, then just sort of skip my weigh in that week. Do it once and that is fine. Do it for a month and not so fine.

I find that I need to have that external weigh to give me a weekly goal (show a loss). I also do get higher motivation from going to meetings. I've been a member a long time (regained lifetime member) so I really don't ever really hear anything that I don't already know (well, rarely). What I do find it is that going to the meetings keeps in the right frame of mind where I prioritize weight loss.

I did Online for awhile and it didn't work well for me because I didn't get those things. Now I know that for many people they don't need to those things and Online works great for them. And if they like the WW tracking and they prefer tracking points to counting calories then I think it is a good choice.

But, if I didn't want the meetings and weigh in of WW and I wanted to count calories instead of points then I probably wouldn't do the Online program.

I think part of it depends on the person, their commitment, and their reasons for being there. I've been an Online member for almost two years and am down 120 lbs (well, 119.8). In the past I did meetings two different times and struggled to stay motivated, even with the meetings and weigh in accountability. I'd easily skip meeting weigh-ins after a bad week, but this time around I have weighed in every single week as an Online member.

For me it was just knowing that this was my last chance and I had to do it. That being said, Online does require personal accountability and commitment that can be difficult, especially in the beginning. But the previous two times I went to meetings I was there for all the wrong reasons, which is why I think this time it's working regardless of which program I chose.

I do count calories, it just helps me get a much bigger, rounder, nutritional idea of what I'm eating. It also helps me balance my weekly points: I still sometimes have difficulty giving myself permission to eat when I am legitimately hungry, so looking at my calorie intake (especially on days I run) is a big assistance.

When I get closer to goal I am considering switching to meetings, as I can't get Lifetime status as an online member.

I, along with other people have all had problems with consuming activity points. The Active Link might make the whole activity point issue go away. It makes sense - if you are stalling when eating the activity points, it might mean that you didn't burn enough calories, which means you thought you were honestly earning the activity points but weren't. For somebody who is really out of shape, they might feel like something is moderate or high, but really is low as far as calorie burning goes.

This is me too!

I'm happy about zero fruit points because, honestly, I rarely eat fruit. Before WW it would be a miracle if I had a piece of fruit in a month! I'm not even joking, I could go months without eating fruit!

Now I'm eating 1 banana every day and strawberries and - gasp - sometimes even pineapple!

If I'm ravenous when I get home from my day I can eat a banana or half a banana and not have this crazy panic reaction and eat something bad just because I'm starving. It's more of a mental satisfaction to me knowing I could reach for a piece of fruit and have it be zero points.

But this works for me because I'm not a fruit person to begin with, so I can see the fruit consumption getting out of control.

Although it would be interesting to see how many people weren't losing weight SOLELY because they were eating too much fruit. Could it be that people were claiming it was because they were eating too much fruit but they were really consuming a bunch of other crap too and not being honest about it? Just curious, not trying to accuse anyone of anything, just honestly curious about this.

I totally can understand why Online works great for many people. But, honestly, I felt what you said above sort of implied that if Online doesn't work for you that you lack commitment and personal accountability. We are all different in what motivates us. When Online didn't work for me I had commitment and was committed to accountability (I even like tracking). But, it just didn't work as well for me as going to meetings.

Perhaps it wasn't your intent but I've run across the attitude before that if you need the weigh in or you need the WW meetings then somehow you are lesser at weight loss and have sort of failed because you can't just do it in your own.

One way I demonstrate commitment and accountability is by weighing in and going to meetings. It works for me and helps motivate me.

Well, not I (I don't love fruit at all). But it did happen to my DH. He was losing nicely until zero point fruit came out and he started eating more fruit, especially bananas. He stopped losing. He did realize this after a month or so and cut back on the fruit and started losing again.

Ohmygosh I'm so sorry if that was at all implied by my statement. That certainly wasn't my intention, although I realize I phrased it in a way that could be taken that way. In no way did I want to demean those that choose meetings over online. I know that going to meetings takes it's own level of commitment and accountability. I had success at the meetings when I went, but in the long term it wasn't for me. We are all on our own journeys and have to find which route is best for us.

No problem...just wanted to mention it. I know that online works for many and I wish it worked better for me....but it just doesn't.

WW changes up their plan abit every year around the same time, early December. Our leader said that the points system would be the same, but that they are tryiing to make the program "easier" to understand. And yes, we would all be getting new material next meeting, Dec 5th. I am not going to get stressed about it. I don't even use any points earned from Activity, so if that is changing, I don't care. I have been going this time for a month now, and do enjoy the meetings. But not necessarily the leader's talk, but the sharing from the members. Which at our meetings they are very sharing with tips and what has worked for them.

How many did he eat per day? I can see that, considering bananas WERE 2 points each before!

I'm going to two meetings next week, by two different leaders. I've noticed that the meetings and what they focus on can be vastly different, even when covering the same material, so hopefully I'll catch it all. If it even needs catching - if it's the way they make it sound, it will be very similar.

I just checked out the online version, and it's set up for WW 360. The online tracker shares space with sections called Home and Routines. It looks like they are trying very hard to help us shape our environment to one that is more conducive for weight loss. And from somebody that thought she heard all the tricks, I learned several good tips this morning!

Spaces: - Pull fruits and veggies out of the bins and make them front and center of the fridge. Hide things like potato salad and desserts in aluminum foil or plastic containers that are not see-through.
- Organize your closet and lay your entire wardrobe out for the next morning. Start the day out organized and on time, so you won't skip healthy breakfast or exercise time. Also includes packing your gym bag!

Routines - routines to implement, and check off once you've implemented them. Examples include - having a fruit or veggie with every snack. Planning your lunch ahead of time and entering it in the tracker beforehand as well. Eat all meals free of distraction, etc.

Food and point values remain the same. They are tossing all old books and products for new ones with the new logos. We do not have to buy anything.