But that's the thing - there is a fine balance between the freedom of the parents to raise the children as they see fit and society's obligation to help those who cannot help themselves. Given that obesity and nutrition are both complex and hotly contested issues, in terms of what the best recommendations are (and the MyPlate campaign ain't it! Awful stuff...) stepping in 'on behalf of the children' stands to do a great deal more damage to the parents AND children than anything it may or may not help. Support groups are all well and good, except that until someone comes to them of their own volition, with their own desire to succeed, they do very little good.

The best course of action is to speak with the adult in charge about the issue, and then, if the children are receptive, open a dialog with each of them about some changes to their choices or lifestyle they might be able to enact. Figure out what THEIR goals for themselves are, what they like doing, and work with those to figure out a plan that healthfully, enjoyably adjusts small things in their lives to bring about better outcomes than the path they are currently on.

And if the kids don't have those goals or aren't on board? Leave it alone! So much emotional damage can be done by 'well meaning' family members butting into the lives of family 'for their best interests' that don't take into account what the people they claim to want to help actually think or where they want to be. And weight, food, exercise... These things are very personal! If the children or adults aren't receptive and the situation is not immediately life threatening (we're talking drug consumption, CO output into the house, mold cause air quality issues, etc) the best idea is to make yourself available with information, *should they want it* and then back off.

This is not something that you can save someone else from - if you are not the actual parent or individual in question then the choice has to be firmly one of the person with the issue - otherwise it won't stick.


As a kid who got fat as I grew older (and lived in a caring, affluent house with lots of good food choices) and now being a mother - I value and protect the freedom to raise my family as I choose, without nosiness from the government, family members, well meaning friends, etc. I feed my kids in a way that Dr. Ornish would say is criminal. I use food practices that the government health inspectors would flag (heaven forbid one ferments dairy at room temperature and without an autoclave to sterilize every utensil). My current diet is something the FDA would certainly ban if they could, and yet it is healing my body in remarkable ways.

Who is right? Which one of those agencies and experts gets to come into my house with 'their' doctrine and 'correct' my 'erroneous' notions? Not a single damn one, thank you very much. It is MY family, and MY kitchen. Unless someone is in clear, distinct, criminally-qualified danger, outsiders should tread lightly and respectfully. Charlaine09, don't let your zealousness for wanting to do what you believe is right in these situations cloud your understanding of the true complexity of issues of personal sovereignty, nutritional wisdom, or even compassionate intervention. There is far more gray than black and white.

I think the original poster has taken a wise path - she has spoken with her mother and probably should do so again. She can talk with and encourage her siblings. She can even work with a counselor or health worker to improve the home situation. But there is nothing about the situation described that should indicate removal of the children from the house, financial citations, or bursting into their lives and forcibly feeding them whatever the expert of the day says is 'healthy'.

Clearly tons of fast food and habitual overeating are bad habits to get into. And yet, they are NOT criminal behaviors or negligent parenting. So given that they are both not healthy and not illegal, the courses of action that are left that do the least damage and the most help are the ones to take. With a family, that is often working with their lives and making small changes, not bringing in the dietary flamethrowers.


Compassion requires both discretion and wisdom. Without it, the only person being served and helped is the self righteous crusader leading the charge.

i never said force anyone into anything, i said help and education should be available to anyone and everyone that wants it. but if a child is say 250 at 8 yrs old, its no longer about the parents personal choice on how to raise their child, they are killing their child, just like smoking around the kid or giving him alcohol. the childs rights to be protected from a toxic enviroment and have a good quality of life have to come into play at some point. being that heavy at that age can have lasting effects on the childs life. until you see a child that is so big that the can no longer walk and even if they lost the weight their bones and organs have been damaged so severely that they have to take medication for the rest of their lives and will never be normal and never have the life other ppl their age will grow up to have, you just cant understand, all because no one wanted to get between a mother and its child.

when i said i wished every parent had to provide healthy food to their kid i wasnt saying if their isnt lettuce in your fridge take the kid away. i just think parents should have to provide better for their kids then 21 fastfood meals a week. im not saying banish all junk or all fastfood, everything in moderation. i would think if you loved your kid you'd want to give them better nutrition than mcdonalds can provide, that you'd want to set a good example for them. im not saying the government should monitor everyones kitchens or weight, dont put on your tinfoil hat, but just has bruises on a childs arm raises an eyebrow so should a kid thats so fat they can't breathe or who has type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure, cholesterol, etc. it seems we can judge parents who smoke or drink around their kids but if we see a kid that can't even walk around their house or has breathing problems we can't say anything because than we are getting too personal and too involved in a parents choice. what about the kids choice? they didnt chose those parents or that lifestyle, what about their rights? they cant fight for themselves. being young and obese can cause just as many health issues for the kid as a parent smoking around them.

im also not saying penalize or take the kid away or anything like youre saying. im saying if a kid is presenting obvious health problems related to their extreme obesity that they see a doctor, rule out whatever else could be wrong, and see if anything can be done to help the child become healthier before it becomes a lifelong fight for them, talk with the parents see whats going on that is leading to this child being so sick, not blame but educate on whats going on with their kid and the kids poor health. break the cycle of obesity through education, not saying force an 8 yr old into a diet, diets dont work, diets are punishment, education and nutrition are the goals, not force anyone into anything, don't blow my ideas out of proportion

Are you sure the parent is killing them? How are you evaluating that? What is the line where the legal behavior crosses over into child abuse? Who decides?

It is NOT that simple. Not even a 250 pound eight year old with sleep apnea.

i think when the kid can't breathe or walk on their own it becomes an issue. if a child has visable health issues has i said a doctor can evaluate that, a medical professional. i never said anything about it being illegal, you put words into my mouth. i think it is child abuse if youre feeding your kid nothing but fastfood and junk and you KNOW THE DIFFERENCE and i wont apologize for my views. its malnutrition. it is actually that simple. you can die from being overweight. you can die from being 200lbs or 300lbs overweight especially if you're a child. obviously if you cant breathe or walk right theres some serious health issues going on there that can probably lead to death, how you can look at someone struggling to breathe and think oh yea they are so fit! i have no idea. smoking near a child doesnt always lead to death yet many people consider that child abuse. a childs health is the parents responsibility and by making resources and education AVAILABLE NOT FORCED you can help them. no ones judging or no ones blaming no ones forcing. alot of people are just uneducated about how much it can hurt you and your child by eating that way, its not abuse if you dont know the difference, but if you do know the difference, if you honestly know you are doing nothing but hurting your child and continue to do it, yea its child abuse. i wont apologise, these are my views, you can disagree with them if you want, youre free to do so just as im free to have my views.

The "danger" of obesity is not as immediate as many other "dangers" we find perfectly acceptable for parents to foist upon their children without society getting involved: parents who involve their children in dangerous hobbies and lifestyles, taking their children into dangerous environments, safari, sky diving, circus families who let their children work with dangerous animals.... we accept all sorts of risky behavior as beyond the domain of social services... unless they're fat.

If the children were of healthy weight, no one would be questioning the children's diet or lifestyle - and this is where we have a very big disconnect. If we can "see" what we believe to be the results of poor diet and exercise - we want to "do something," but if the children look ok, everyone turns a blind eye. This happens in abuse cases as well. Teachers are more apt to ignore or deny the evidence of abuse when the children appear well-fed, clean, and well-dressed. If it doesn't "look crazy" it's generally accepted as ok.

There's some rather compelling research that suggest that extra weight itself is not the risk we believe it to be -rather poor diet and sedentary lifestyles are the most salient variables. So by only focusing on the children with obvious weight issues, we're essentially saying "we don't care if you're unhealthy as long as you're not fat too."


The thin children and adults who eating junk and living sendentary lives may actually be at greater risk than the obese folk, ecause everyone (even doctors) may assume that because they look normal, they must be perfectly healthy.

For many people, weight management is extremely difficult, even when you do everything "right." And that's one of the things we don't teach anyone. We all talk about how easy weight loss is, "just eat less and move more," and yet it's rarely that simple.

My parents didn't have perfect habits, but they consulted the experts and they tried their best to get my weight under control, and I only ballooned, because no one addressed the possibility that there might be physiological reasons that I was fat. I was the only person in the family to have been overweight as a child, and I suspect that genetic factors played a significant role (I was adopted, so I'm not genetically related to anyone in my family).

And yet, because my mother was fat, she was blamed for my obesity, even though she and my father took me to doctors, and followed their advice. They never took me to a dietitian, because we didn't have a lot of money, and that wasn't covered by insurance. I was a veteran dieter by the time I was 8 (and joined my first Weight Watchers meeting).

Most of what we think we know about weight loss is bullcrap. I followed the "common wisdom" all of my life, and just kept getting fatter and fatter until I accidentally discovered that the right birth control drastically decreased the insane TOM hunger I always experienced. Then I discovered low-carb eating and found that I could make hunger virtually disappear.

And yet, both of these remedies are still quite controversial.

We dont hate unhealthy habits in this country - we just hate obesity. If we did, we wouldn't allow schools to cut P.E. programs or let them serve the high-fat, high-carb, high-calorie fast foods.

I think it's riduculous to harshly judge parents for feeding their kids the same junk that the kids are getting in the public schools.

This isn't just a family problem, it's a societal one. "Adult" lifestyle diseases are showing up in younger and younger children - diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure... and it's not just showing up in the fat kids (and yet it's only the fat kids and their parents who are being scrutinized).


We have a weird social view that thin people "can afford to eat junk" and they probably can't. We need to address the habits themselves, not just the potential results of those habits. Unfortunately, we've proven with our actions, that are society doesn't care whether you're healthy or not, as long as you look as if you are.

Even the way we diet proves we don't care. Dangerous and even deadly methods are used for weight loss every day. As a whole, our culture doesn't give a crap about health, and it's blowing up in our faces - and not just the fat ones.

well the reason i said visable signs of illness is because we cant go into ppls homes and see what type of lives their kids are living, that would be too much personal invasion, way to much. im sure there are plenty of thin kids that are sick too as well as overweight healthy kids, hence why i said such things as walking and breathing problems, diabetes etc, and of course there are other reasons for being fat, why i talked about seeing a doctor and figuring out whats causing the kid to be so sick, we're not gonna be like ok the kids 200lbs overweight its the parents fault! no has i said, get down to the reasons for the issue and provide any help that is wanted, i think most parents will want help if their kids are sick. if a thin kid passes out in class thats obviously cause for concern too, everyone can be unhealthy but no one can say being 200lbs overweight is the key to health and as for the ppl saying whats considered healthy changes all the time-sorry but taco bell is never gonna be considered healthy, dream on lol

i think one issue of ppl misunderstanding me stems from the fact we are in diff countries and cultures, alot of the things you said raise my eyebrows because they are not true here. in highschool we had many types of p.e classes including archery! and there were unhealthy and healthy options in our schools, and if you were underweight the school nurse was just as likely to ask you whats up than if you were overweight, and social services here definetly pay attention to kids beyond whether or not they look well fed and clean.

for example in 4th grade i went from getting 90s to 70s and teachers told my parents it was my eyesight and my parents couldnt afford eyeglasses so social services stepped in and paid for my eyetest and eyeglasses, they didnt judge or blame my parents, they helped my parents and my parents and myself were very grateful. is the american social services system more mean or evil or something?

you wouldn't think there would be such differences from the states versus nfld but i can see from what the americans are saying there are many differences society and culture wise.

Thanks for all of the replies. I'm going to try to address some common questions and concerns.

RE: My mother and the hoarding The shopping and hoarding behaviors are absolutely a sign of a mental illness. The problem is she just doesn't see it that way. She's been to counseling before, and though it may have helped a little bit. She's the perpetual victim type. The way she tells the story everything is someone else's fault.

So why can't I just get the kids out of the house? I absolutely could do this, but it wouldn't be in their best interests. Their father is worse. He's an unstable, unemployed, substance abuser. I would never want to see them under his care. Moving the two of them in with me would be an option but a very difficult one. They'd have to switch schools and move away from all of their friends which they wouldn't want. And my mother wouldn't let them go without a fight. I'd have to engage in a cost legally battle, if not with her then with their father.

There's no easy solution here. Child Protective Services has been involved before. When CPS is called she (relying heavily on them) will get the house cleaned up to a barely passable level. This probably sounds like a good thing, but as a perpetual victim type, my mother takes all of the stress of having authorities involved out on everyone around her and tells the kids that it's all their fault. (The only hoard-less areas of the house are the rooms that only the kids use.) The kids understand that she has a hoarding problem and it's not their fault. I'm really fed up with this situation, but I know that she has to want help. We could go in there and clean up, but until she gets help, it'll just keep ending up trashed again.

RE: The kid's weight I strongly believe that they're both smart enough to understand the basic principles of healthy eating. One of my mother's biggest excuses is that the kids want to eat junk. If my brother and sister both decided they were going to eat healthier and, for example, said they didn't want to eat at buffets, she wouldn't force them. Ideally both she and the kids would want to make changes, but either way the kids are going to have to want to do it. Their eating isn't supervised 24/7. Even if my mother made some miraclous turn-around with the type of food she buys them, they could still obtain junk if they wanted it.

I really want to still some motivation and confidence in their ability to make changes now because this will be so much more difficult as morbidly obese adults. And that's the direction they're heading. I don't think they're too young. I first realized I had a problem in the eight grade when a forced in-school weigh-in revealed that I weighed 135lbs and had a horrifying 40% body fat (at less than 5'2"). My freshman year I lost over 35lbs and got down to 13.5% body fat. Although I'm not in the greatest shape now, my body fat has never been that high, nor my waist that big since. I was raised in the same environment and faced many of the same challenges. I'm not expecting miracles here. I want to get all three of them to consciously acknowledge that their weight is a serious problem and start taking some steps to do something about it.

They have a gym membership that occassionally gets used. My sister is still active in sports. When I'm around I take her to the gym and coach her. Excercise alone isn't going to do it for them, although it's part of the picture. They need to make dietary changes ASAP. My brother's doctor has finally got around to broaching the topic, but it didn't make much of a difference. On some level they recognize that there's a problem. I'm just not sure the kids understand the seriousness of the issue. I don't think they see morbidly obese people and think that that could them in a few years. My brother, particularly, doesn't let on that he cares. He's sort of built a persona on being big.

I think I'm going to have to try talking to them individually. My husband might be able to help. (He majored in a related field.) We might not be the best ones to have this conversation with them though. Neither of us has ever been (BMI definition) obese. My husband has never been over-weight or even anything other than slender. Right now I'm working on losing what could largely be considered vanity weight (or preventive weight), and it's not public knowledge.

I guess I'm looking for advice on how to have that conversation. How do you cover a topic that big with young people? (In case it got lost in the big, long narrative, they're in the 7th and 10th grades.) How can I kindle any motivation they might have and use it towards positive ends? Again, I understand they don't have 100% control of the situation. I'm not expecting some big turnaround. Even if they stopped gaining that would be a huge improvement.

What does parental knowledge or intent have to do with whether something should be construed as abuse or not? The damage is done either way.

"Sorry you got burned when the meth your parents were cooking in their kitchen exploded, Little Johnny, but we can't charge them with child abuse because they didn't realize that there was anything wrong with doing that."

Who gets to determine that a specific behavior is "wrong", and how is that determination made? Once you (or somebody) has decided that it's wrong, how do you determine the point at which parents can no longer plead ignorance and should instead be classified as abusers?

I'm going to disagree with both you and say that a)government agencies can serve as valuable entities for protecting children from unfit parents/guardians and dangerous households, although there are - as always - some gray areas and some cultural relativism and b)making "resources and education available," even if it were logistically and financially feasible to do so on a universal scale, would not going to be enough to effect meaningful change on a societal level. People often don't know what they don't know (esp. if they're extremely and chronically impoverished, substance abusers, or suffering from untreated or poorly-treated mental illness) and, for various reasons, they may be unwilling to seek out help even if they recognize they need it and it's easily available.

my young sister looks up to me , if yours does too, you could try influencing her by hanging out and eating healthy food with her and tell her about how good you feel and how happy you are thinner and just how awesome it is. show her all the cool clothes you can wear and the things you can do thats harder if youre bigger, if shes like my sister she will want to copy you to be 'cool' like her big sis. for your bro i have no idea, guys are harder to talk too, maybe your husband would know what to say to a guy.

my government takes a much more proactive approach but that doesn't seem doable in the states from what i was reading..? so education is all i could see but of course more dialogue on the issue does open more options doesn't it! well i mean ppl making meth i would assume know the difference and i think most people feeding their kids junk and fastfood for all 21 meals a week probably do as well but its not as extreme as a methlab blowing up, one step at a time is better than none at all on the issue. with something that isnt so immediate we can allow for more gray areas than a meth lab blowing up. but something has to be done its an endless cycle and the obesity epidemic is so large especially in the states from what i read (and saw O____O) and i dont know the perfect solution but opening a dialogue is difenetly a start, but my country is different so i don't know how people in american will react versus my own country. we can reach out to people to inform them that theres help available but we can't force grown adults. i dont want to live in that kinda system either. its a very gray area that needs to be more proactive if that makes sense?

Re: That does sound like it's a tough situation for everybody. I hope that you guys can find a solution.

1. You cannot make them be motivated to lose weight or give them confidence in their ability to lose weight. You can talk to them about your concerns, act as a cheerleader and sounding board, encourage them to make healthy choices, praise them for the things they do well, and help them learn how to think through and solve the problems that confront them in life. But unless you've got some massive emotional hooks in them or a sophisticated propaganda system, you can't make them feel something just because that's what you think they should feel.

2. They're not you. You were freaked out by your weight/body fat % stats in 8th grade and did something about it. It sounds like you expect them to be the same way. But since they're not you, have their own lives and concerns, may have different priorities than you did when you were their ages, may be at different levels of emotional and mental maturity than you were at those ages, and may be more physiologically different from you than age and gender alone would dictate, why should they have the same reaction that you did?

3. It sounds like your family has a number of "serious problems" that they aren't able/willing to deal with/fix. Why do you think weight loss will be any different? You can try to influence their behavior in a variety of ways, but you can't make them do anything.

On a side note, I found losing weight easier once I reached adulthood. I was able to find the care I needed, cook food I wanted to eat, and arrange my life in a way that worked reasonably well for me.

So talk with them about nutrition and eating healthy. Also, ask them about what they think about their weight and how it affects and will affect their lives. Even if they don't realize how detrimental this could be to their lives in the long run, well, why should they? Their mother hasn't pushed it, their physicians haven't really been dealing with it, and adolescents are not generally noted for their ability to make rational predictions about the future or understand that they're not invincible or immune from the effects of time. Why would it be at the forefront of their consciousness?

Good for you for taking your sister to the gym and coaching her.

I think that if you stay focused on their health and are not overbearing, overwhelmingly negative, condescending, or judgmental and you listen to what they need and think, you'll probably be okay. Losing a lot of weight does require a lot of effort, so perhaps reading up on the thoughts and struggles of people who have lost a lot of weight (especially younger people) might be helpful. And remember - if they're not ready or open to accepting your help, then they're just not. You can't force them.

Well, it would be a huge improvement in your opinion. What would they consider a good outcome? What are their health goals?

In case it got lost in my own lengthy post, here's my advice on talking to them:

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Why would you assume that? Have you ever met (or even just listened to) a crystal meth addict? If people truly thought something was really bad, why would they do it? What would "one step at a time" be in the meth situation? "Cook meth, just don't have children in the house while you're doing it? We'll worry about the effects of the poisonous residue that forms over everything, the incredibly shady buyers who come by at all hours, and your own drug-induced insanity later on."

Gray areas are indeed a part of life. An endless cycle of what? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

There's been a dialogue going on for years as governments, public health workers, researchers, educators, and individuals try to deal with the obesity epidemic. Education of individuals is an important part of tackling the issue, but there are lot of other pieces of the puzzle too, at least in the US. It seems to me that the entire arrangement of society works against a lot of people, although I think that's generally due more to poor planning than malice. Where are you from?

Adults can make their own decisions (within reason - we can't just decide to kill people and expect to get away with it), but children can't. Ignorance isn't an excuse for child abuse. Parental education might be a prescribed outcome, but it's not always appropriate or effective. Some people are too crazy, stupid, or selfish to care for their children.

ok i will list these points lol

first one- this was based on what id read from americans about them not wanting government intrusion and personal invasion and what not

second one-no meth isnt a big problem here but i guess i have faith that humanity isnt that dumb, maybe im wrong, one step at a time was refering to obesity not meth.

three-endless cycle of generation after generation of obese families passing on poor life skills

four- i am from newfoundland

five-i agree ignorance isnt an excuse for child abuse. when i said that i was suggesting a gray ground for the abuse from the lack of nutrition because some people on this thread were saying it would be wrong to remove the child and blame the parents right away instead of looking into the issue and working with the parents to correct the issue first, i wasnt talking about any other form of child abuse, i was suggesting that we could take steps to correct the problem first instead of just removing the kids .


sorry i know i am hard to understand sometimes.

Normally I wouldn't jump in on this one, but I have to say Nfld seems to have different standards than the rest of Canada, our PE class included a morning of bowling for a credit, that's a joke. The 'nutrition' we were taught fit into one day of learning, not enough. I did not grow up in a small town, I spent my years in some of the larger 'better off' cities this country has.

I am a single mother, I made the choice to learn more about nutrition when I had my son. When I went to Canada Services for help and direction, i was told to check the website, that was all. It wasn't a priority for them to help me learn how to properly nourish my child.
When I decided to get properly educated on the matter, I went to the Govt again to seek funding or student loans. I was denied because I "Made too much money" so what was I to give up then? Rent, groceries, daycare?
Not much help there is it?

It goes farther than that unfortunately. My cousins children and malnurished and very underweight for their height and age. I wish I was exagerating this but I'm not. They have known frozen pizza, take out chicken, soda pop, chips and candy since they were infants. Yes, infants. They had no idea how good fruit tasted until I brought some to the house, cut it up and put it in a bowl. A simple melon and pineapple.
It is not for lack of knowledge on their parents part, it is not for lack of affordable food. It is simple laziness by their parents, that is clear.
CFS has been called, by more than one person. Do you know what the result was? it was 5 months before a home visit was even conducted because as long as the children have food available it is not a concern.

I have lived in the USA and Canada, the differences you speak of are no greater between the 2 countries as they are between provinces in our own country.

Sorry - I'll get off my soap box now.

January Snow: Don't overestimate your younger siblings ability to reason and make good decisions.

They may be very bright, but they still have not fully developed their capacity to use their reason correctly or make the correct decisions. They may not be small children, but they are also not adults.

In this case, they should carry absolutely no responsibility for their weight.

They need an authority figure to implement correct eating plans for them, as they do not have the reason, discipline, or understanding to do it themselves.