Lauren,
Aren't we funny? Here you are thinking about good ole cottage cheese too much! Egads. Anyway--I bet Lin loves the advice you gave her about ants. What miserable experiences you had with them. I sat on a red ant hill in Oklahoma when I was about three years old--and I never forgot that experience either. However, I think your advice is a lot more valuable than mine which would simply be to get into a bathtub fast!
I think you are coming to terms with losing a magnificent amount of weight coupled with the Christmas season. You've been looking forward to this day and weight for a long time. Now that you've done it, what next? So how about taking a few days of good journaling about what you're feeling now, be super careful with your points, and congratulate yourself and remind yourself that you deserve to be this weight. I am so proud of you.

I weighed myself this morning and I've got to stop doing that. I keep looking forward to losing a pound and it's not happening. So, I have to keep on keepin' on and it will happen.

Lin,
Good luck with your ant traps. Not fun. We have ants in the kitchen right now, but I just sprayed them and I think they'll be gone. Our unseasonal weather is causing the problem, I think.

Mousie,
So good hearing from you.

Let's all keep on keepin' on.
Judy
234/209/199 soon

Judy, I really like your suggestion of taking some time right now and journaling how I'm feeling about being at this weight while watching my points. I think I'll do just that. Thanks.

I also hear you about needing to stay off the scales between weigh-ins. It's such an icky habit to get into -- as Dotti's husband says, impatience can really get in the way of this whole process.

I think, in fact, that part of my problem right now is just that -- focusing too much on the numbers, too much on the schedule instead of stepping back and recognizing once again that this is a lifetime process. Somehow I want to find the right balance between taking the big picture view (being a good turtle) and yet also focusing and sticking with this so that the weight does come off. I seem to swing between the two a fair amount but only occasionally really find the happy medium ground. At the turtle extreme, I don't lose weight. At the other extreme, I do -- but I can get too much back in diet mode. So I'm going to step back as you recommend and try to find a good balance again.

Lin, about the red-light foods. I think there's much to recommend your theory. Certainly, red-light foods are mostly in our minds, and we can -- theoretically -- change how we think. I think it's wonderful that you no longer have any red-light foods. Good for you.

Some of us, however, just ain't there yet. No, I don't have a list of 100 such foods (that poor woman), but I do have a few. I've learned what they are through trial and error. And, for me, I do well to recognize it and live accordingly. There have been times when I can have certain foods in the house (say, M&Ms) and not overeat them. Those times are generally when life is going calmly along with no particular bumps, when I feel very strong, when I'm the captain of my ship, etc. I'd also say that those times turn on a dime. One week, I can handle having the M&Ms around, just eating a small handful once in a while. The next week, they call my name all day and all night. When that happens, I'm better off just getting rid of them.

My "red-light" foods change over time, too. What bothered me last month might not be a problem this month. That may be because life is going more smoothly, or it might be that I'm more focused -- or it might be that I'm just tired of that particular food. Whatever the reason, I find that when I start to overeat a certain food, or when having a certain food leads me to start overeating in general, then I do better to get it out of the house for a while.

I don't see red-light foods as the same thing as forbidden foods, at least not for me. I still eat ice cream, but I make myself go out to get it. I don't keep it in the house. I do better when I treat cottage cheese that way, too -- just have it at salad bars.

Maybe I should call them "yellow-light" foods -- treat with extreme caution.

I'm probably just being too sensitive here, but I read in your post that those of us who have red-light foods are just being too weak. If we really put our minds to it, we'd be masterful enough to have any food around and be in control.

Well, maybe that's true. But for whatever reason, sometimes I'm not strong enough to do that. If I had that kind of 24/7 control of every food, I wouldn't have gotten up to 274 pounds. I don't overeat a red-light food because I *expect* to overeat it -- I overeat it because for mysterious reasons, it calls my name when I'm vulnerable and it doesn't shut up. I'm not blaming the food, as you imply; I'm recognizing that I am more likely to overeat certain things when I'm at all vulnerable, if those foods are around.

And I agree with Yoda's quotation and find it very applicable to red-light foods -- as you say, "either we do handle it or we do not. We can't 'try.'" That's exactly what I do with some foods -- I simply do not handle them. Not in the house, anyway. Because I know that trying to do so will open me up to a level of temptation that would be unwise for me. Again, good for you that you're able to master all foods and eat them in moderation.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/199.5/199 by Christmas (home scales, a.m.)

Lauren, philosophically speaking, isn't acknowledging that your best method of dealing with them is not having them in the house a WAY of handling them? I mean, it's the old "not making a decision is making a decision" thing. So, okay, you ARE dealing with them, and you're dealing with them the best way for you. Works for me.

An interesting thought, too: in My Book (yeah, I'm gonna refer to it a lot, I already have!) it says something to the effect that legalizing all foods does NOT mean you have to eat junk all day. If you want a vegetable, eat a vegetable. No foods are bad. You can chose not to have some foods because you don't like what they do to you, but that's an individual thing. No food in itself is inherently bad, it's just how it interacts with individuals. It's splitting hairs maybe, but it's a more comfortable way of looking at it. I choose not to have certain foods because of what they do to me. That doesn't mean the food itself is bad, I just don't like the results I get. Mentally, a more comfortable thought. For me at least.

I'm being very deep and introspective right now, thinking a lot about food and my relationship with it, and things that have happened in the last year. I'm being very gentle with myself, right now. Mentally saying nice things, journalling a lot, giving myself what I need when I realize I need it. I've let myself take naps instead of giving myself sugary food to stay awake. Taken a bath when I needed to be warm, instead of eating something warm/hot. Played my piano QUITE forcefully when I was angry, instead of eating the emotion away. And I've also told myself it's okay when I realize I'm munching out of emotional pain/stress, or that it's okay if that's the only way I can come up with to help myself.

You know what? It's working! I feel like I can trust myself a bit more--weird idea, but true--and I feel much less ashamed and desperate. Now, I'm faaaaaaaaaaar from okay, and this is faaaaaaaar from being all the answer, but I'm feeling like I'm coming out of hiding, emotionally speaking. I've been hurting a lot, this year, and acknowledging it and telling myself it's okay to be hurt and not be strong is soothing to me. I've even had a day (today) of hard but necessary conversations with DH, and we've worked some important things out. Mostly to the effect that he doesn't expect me to give up ME because I'm now a part of US. I'm going to try to be me again. See if I can coax me out of hiding.

Anyway! Wow, that was deep. Time for Christmas shopping--Target here I come!

I love you guys!
Judy
234/209/199soon

I just have to grin at you, Judy.

I'm being mentally quite with myself, and trying to be very accepting. I hadn't realized how mean I was being to myself, and right now I feel like a small abused child inside. I'm trying to be careful and tender with myself.

Part of me would like to try 123 again, because I WOULD like to be thinner than I am right now, and I must admit I'm impatient for the process to begin. The other part of me, though, is panicking at the thought of ANY sort of rules. Once I have the thought "How many Points is this?" I immediately get "Oh but that only leaves X Points for later" "But is it a protein? Can I count it as a veggie? How many vegetables have I had today? I shouldn't eat anything sugary, that's not a good way to spend Points..." etc. So for right now I'm really striving to just eat what I want, and eat just as much as my body needs. I know what I'm eating--waffles with applesauce, bagel pizza bites--but if I want it, I have it, I don't focus on "counting" it.

Before I eat anything, I have to know I'm hungry. Obviously, but it keeps me away from the "it's lunchtime gotta eat" thing. So once I feel hungry, I go through a mental litany with myself. Do I want something hot or cold? Smooth or crunchy? Needs utensils or finger foods? Solid or liquid? This continues until I narrow down what I'm wanting, and then I try to make it happen. Hence the waffles with applesauce this morning--I wanted apple pancakes and couldn't make that happen.

I've been watching very closely, and I've noticed a couple of times that when I can pinpoint what I want, and I DON'T get it for one reason or another, I eat waaaaay past full of the thing I DO end up eating. It's hard for me to let myself be hungry for long, but I'm trying to at least hold on until I get what I'm craving.

I've heard people say this before but I never realized how true it is: even if you're craving something "bad", just a couple bites are enough. Most of my meals, now, have parts left over. Half a quesadilla (I live for mexican food), the bread from a sandwich, the bread part of a piece of pizza (I only wanted the toppings and the cheese and the sauce)--I'm only eating the things that really please me.

Now, I don't know what my weight is doing, and I don't want to know. I'm frankly afraid of the scale. I feel much more sane and much more stable NOT knowing, and trying to just take care of myself. I have to go to the doctor to get a prescription refill, and I'll be weighed there, and I'm postponing that as long as possible. I know my clothes still fit like usual. Right now, that's about all I can handle.

In the back of my mind, I'm toying with the idea of going to a counselor to talk about some of these issues. I think my issue right now is that I don't know how to handle my emotions, and the glut of emotions this year got eaten down. I would like to find someone to teach me to work through my emotions, not to teach me how to eat. But then, that's what an eating disorder is, isn't it? Its not the food per se, it's the other things in your life that are being expressed through food. Once I'm ready to talk about this with my husband, I will talk to him about finding a counselor. Right now I'm keeping it to myself, while I'm feeling fragile.

Got a lot to do today, coming up on finals (next week!) and I have a piano piece I MUST practice. See you all later.

I love this group too, Judy. You all always challenge me and make me think about things in a way that no other WW-related group does. I so appreciate that. Once again, Lin, thanks for starting the Turtles. And thanks to everyone for making it such a thought-provoking and helpful place to be.

I *am* hormonal, as it turns out. Seems like PMS gets longer for me as I get older, starting now with ovulation. So my hair trigger is hairier than usual. That's probably why I was so sensitive the other day, Lin. You made some good points.

Mousie, wow, you're definitely working through some good stuff right now. Good for you. Sounds like you're really doing what you need to do to be healthy. And if your clothes fit, where's the worry? Sometimes we need to just put the scale away and, as you say, learn to trust ourselves. You sure sound like Geneen Roth right now!

Last night I went to a Christmas party, and guess what the hostess had front and center? Mint M&Ms!!! I had to laugh, after our discussion here. So I thought -- OK, I can handle this. I had a small handful, maybe 8 or 10. Then I physcially removed myself from their vicinity. So what happens, but they start following me around!! I kid you not! When I moved out to the dining room, the hostess put them on the dining room table! When I moved to the living room, she put them on the coffee table! I ended up not having any more of them, and once she realized that I didn't want them around (I crossed my fingers at them, like one would make a sign against a vampire. Fortunately, she thought it was funny), she moved them out of reach. I chuckled the whole evening about it.

I noticed, too, that most everyone else was *also* having a tough time with the M&Ms -- eating handfuls of them and saying things like "I can't stop eating these!" I think they must put some secret chemical in them, like HEROIN or something. By the time we left, they were almost gone! And I found that so long as I couldn't see them, they didn't bother me. I just enjoyed the company.

Funnily enough, the hostess gave us a box of See's chocolates as a gift. We have them here at home, along with three jars of dark chocolate turtles, and none of them are calling my name. Go figure. But I'm only going to tempt fate so far; the turtles are going to work with my husband this week. I'll have one on Christmas eve.

Anyway, I worked out this morning in spite of a sore toe (I think it's sore because one of the cats laid wrong on it while I was sleeping), and I've been within points, barely. I doubt I'll see a loss this week, may even see a gain thanks to the hormones, but I can live with it.

I'm at the place where people are finally really noticing my weight loss -- it's like it's hitting them all at once. It's a nice feeling, a little uncomfortable, but nice.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/199.5/199 by Christmas

Hi, Turtles,

This discussion is so cool! See what happens when I can't get online for a couple of days? But--it's also really long, so I"ll start a new thread and post my comments there.

Lin