*

Wow. After reading this I feel it has confirmed all the things I've been wondering to myself. I am different. I had a sneaking suspicion that this wasn't going to get easier. I'm not quite a "maintainer" yet but I have lost 112 lbs and have 19 more to go. Just maintaining my current weight is such a challenge that I'm not sure if I will be able to lose the last 19. This is hard to swallow for me. I can't help but find all of this a bit defeating, as I and others have worked so darn hard just to work even harder. The alternative to all of this is of course far less appetizing than the work. I love my new body, I love my life, and I wanted to feel like I didn’t have to fight for it. Silly me, chin up.

This is the reason I keep reading here. I am nowhere near maintenance yet, but I need to know what it looks like, feels like, and to get it through my thick skull that this will never be over. I will always have a strong tendency to obesity, and the fight will go on for the rest of my life.

I don't want to be a statistic, and I don't ever want to have to go through all this again, this has to be for life.

Thanks for posting this Meg and giving a still obese person some direction and insight.

Amen to everything you said, Kykaree! I know you're going to make it all the way and keep the weight off forever - you've got the right attitude, chickie.

*I* sure don't want to be a statistic either - one of those 95% who regain. Just the thought gives me the cold chills. My motto is WHATEVER IT TAKES because that's what I'll do to keep the weight off.

As you said, this is FOR LIFE and when you think about it, it's true in the very best sense of the words -- we are doing this to benefit our lives so indeed it is FOR LIFE.

I dunno. I'm still not completely convinced that we are all that much different. I mean, I've seen people who've never had an overweight problem eating a huge dessert...and we get jealous, right? But 9 times out of 10, they don't do that on a daily basis. They aren't normally heavy eaters, nor do they eat junk food as a daily staple. And of those that do eat junk, they are constantly on the move.

We might feel we have to force ourselves to keep up with exercise, but for myself, I went from a computer junkie/couch potato/desk job person to someone who likes to walk and gets bored sitting too long. I used to be that way in high school and didn't have a weight problem. But I grew out of that mode and ended up being really tired all the time because I wasn't exercising in my day-to-day activities and had to make exercise a priority. If I start to slack off, I start feeling tired again and don't feel like going for walks and moving much. And I don't want that old feeling back.

But the people I've noticed who haven't had weight issues, they never ate as much junk as I did to start with, they never ate as MUCH as I did overall, and they would get out and go shopping when I'd prefer to sit home and watch a movie. So they didn't have to go for a run each day to keep trim because they were energetic all day every day naturally.

I know that won't apply to everyone because some people can be active and still be overweight. But I just seem to feel that we don't have to work harder than people who haven't been overweight for the most part, but we have to work equally. It just doesn't seem as hard to them because they don't actually work at it. It comes natural to them. They get up and move when we may not. So we have to force ourselves to move. Then we see ourselves jogging just to keep our shape and them eating ice cream. Not realizing that they've spent the day on their feet and have probably walked further throughout the entire day than we ran in 30 minutes. Not realizing that they've been up and down the steps at home doing laundry while we let ours set because we just didn't have the energy. Not realizing that the ice cream was the only thing they've had so far today and we've already had a sausage and egg biscuit for breakfast, and a cheeseburger and fries for lunch. I dunno. That's just how it seems to me sometimes.

Hi Heaven – how’s the mama-to-be doing these days?

I think you’re absolutely right in the distinction you draw between normal weight people and the way we USED to be. Yep, normal people certainly didn’t eat the junk and calories that a lot of us did and they undoubtedly moved much more. We weren't different back then - we just took in way more calories than we burned and got fat. Clearly there are legitimate reasons why so many of us ended up overweight or obese and I think you nailed them. I have to admit that I earned every one of my 122 extra pounds.

The point I was trying to make is that we're different NOW that we’re at a normal weight and the weight maintenance rules that apply to normal people don’t seem to apply so well to us ‘reduced obese’ (as doctors would call us). I’ll use myself as a case in point. For me, maintenance means between 45 and 60 minutes of cardio per day, every day, and lifting weights 4 – 5 times a week, for about an hour. Total = about an hour and a half of intentional exercise every day, on top of what I get working as a personal trainer (and it's a VERY physical job). I have to stay under 1500 calories a day or else I gain – I’m sure of that because I track everything I eat in Fitday every day. Maybe I’m crazy, but I don’t know anyone who’s always been at a normal weight who has to exercise as much and eat as little as I do simply to maintain their weight.

It could be that I’m an anomaly, but I don’t think so based on what others here have posted about their exercise routines and calorie intake. Additionally, the National Weight Control Registry (a study group of 3000+ maintainers) reports that the average maintainer eats about 1400 calories a day and does 60 minutes of intentional exercise. I honestly believe that’s less food and more exercise than never-obese people typically get. As a matter of fact, the latest government recommendations for exercise reflect the realties of weight maintenance by recommending 60 minutes of exercise for weight loss and 60 – 90 for weight loss maintenance. It takes more exercise to maintain a weight loss than to lose it in the first place.

Why? Researchers have established that a large weight loss will lower your metabolism by about 15- 20%. Permanently. So that means that we ‘reduced obese’ need to eat less and move more than people who have always been at a normal weight in order to maintain our weight losses. I attended a lecture given by one of the lead researchers in the field, Dr. Rudolph Leibel of Columbia Medical School, last January - I posted about it here. I spoke with him after the lecture and he talked extensively about his findings and lab. At one point in the conversation, he stared right at me and told me point-blank that though I may look normal on the outside now, physically and metabolically I’m very different than a 'normal person' on the inside. And that he’d be able to determine that with laboratory tests. How weird is that! A doctor can tell that we’ve lost weight through blood tests!

I totally agree with your point that we got obese or overweight by eating more and moving less than normal people. But now that we’ve got the weight off, it seems like we have to eat less and move more than the same normal people. That’s what I meant when I said – we’re different.

I didn't move less when I was overweight, but I ate differently. I've been skiing, hiking, climbing, running, playing tennis, kyaking and lifting weights since I was an early teen, almost forty years ago. I ran two marathons overweight (gee, wonder why my knees are creaky?). To maintain my current weight, I do between 40-75 minutes of HEAVY weight training (depending on the body part du jour) five days a week, and at least half an hour of cardio 4-5 days a week. I have a non-sedentary job lugging weights around a gym, clean my own rather large house, garden, ride my bike for fun, and rollerblade. To maintain, I eat no more than 1400 very clean calories per day. Based on any calorie calculator I've ever seen, I should have disappeared long ago.

I think that's different enough to support Meg's thesis.

Mel

I agree that maintainers are different than people of the same weight who have never had a weight problem, but I think the issues of maintenance are very close to the issues of those who still have lots to lose. Basically, there really IS no maintenance, IMO, you have to keep working on the same level as when you were droppin' a lot of pounds. For some people, like me, that just means continually downshiftin' your original weight goal to keep things interesting. Eventually, it'll level out ... I would not like to be too thin, but I doubt VERY seriously if that'll ever be the case.

I used to think about "maintenance" ... thought I was in "maintenance" when I was at different weights that I liked, but "maintenance" makes things seem too rosy, too easy, like ... now I have arrived at this state and all I have to do is "maintain" ... well, maybe.

So I guess I mean that I don't think "maintainers" are different. We are all engaged in weight management ... one goal at a time, even if the goal is NOT to have a regain.

'Cause without continued work and focus, a regain is a given

I think one thing we have to be careful of is that even as reduced obese there are differences between us. I think the studies that are done are interesting and sometimes quite helpful, but they report (as they should) average results for the group under study. But when push comes to shove we are each an experiment of one. We have different physiologies, different ages, and we make different choices. We can all learn from each other, but we have to figure out what works for each of us, individually.

If I use my pre-pregnancy self as a counter-example to Meg, I maintained quite happily on about 2000-2200 calories a day, plus whatever else I burned through exercise. That is about what 'normal' active women should eat, according to the old food pyramid. I don't watch carbs at all, but the high-protein thing would be pretty tough for me anyway, since I could live quite happily as a vegetarian, and only ate meat a few times a week. And truth be told, while I do eat way more veggies that the average woman, I never really worried about the whole 'clean eats' thing, although it did tend to take care of itself if I wanted enough volume to keep hunger away. I do great at cardio, but do only minimal weight training, just enough to keep some muscle mass around. I'm also still relatively young, mid 30s, and relatively tall (for a woman) which both help.

And yes, I'm also part of the NWCR which means there's probably some poor woman out there that maintains on about 900 calories a day, just to get the average Meg quoted. One of my pet peeves as a scientist is when results are reported as averages without mention of normal variability. Don't know if that is the tradition in the biological sciences or an artifact the popular press's 'dumming down' for the general public (as if people aren't smart enough to figure out well written popular reports), but that was basic grad school science 101 for us. Meg, your reaction to this reduced obese study seems to be, quite appropriately, that this study makes a great deal of sense--it matches your experience. For me, while it was interesting, I also sort of found it weird, because it didn't match mine at all.

But I also made some choices that made maintenance for me easier. I chose a maintenance weight (or did it chose me?) which was on the higher side, a BMI which says I'm slightly overweight, a body fat percentage in the mid 20s and a 10/12 size jeans. If I'd taken it another 30 lbs and 3 sizes, it would have been significantly more difficult to maintain. But I felt happy and comfortable where I was, my health stats except for my BMI were all great, and I was able to do long distance racing, including marathon and triathlons. And I didn't feel so great when I did try to take it lower. I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a happy medium for me between 289 lbs and 110 lbs and I chose something that was realistic and comfortable for me.

My basic problem is that for whatever reason, and I'm guessing I have a couple wires crossed somewhere between my stomach and my brain, I want to be abnormal. Something inside me still wants to eat an entire bag of cheetos at one sitting. I never met a cake I didn't like. I have NO, NONE, NADA working hunger mechanism. I have no sense of satisfaction, and feel full only if I'm pretty much too stuffed to move. Don't think this only applies to junk food either--I have on occasion consumed, say, an entire head of cauliflower. I also pretty much don't feel hunger unless my blood sugar drops so low I get the shakes and think I might pass out. If I can control my feedback by writing everything down, and then acting on that, I do OK. If I have to rely on my body for feedback, I'm just honked every single time.

So I guess my point is that, yeah, we're different, but we're not all different in the same way. Some of us have to eat 1500 cal/day to maintain, others can eat more, and I'm guess some of us probably would need to do even less. I get a lot of things from this group which are extremely useful, but there are other things some of you all do or struggle with, that I just have a hard time relating to personally. I guess that is no big surprise, we are a collection of individuals after all. Different rules may apply to Meg and I, or any one of you and I, but I think there is some commonality in that for whatever reason, and whatever our individual rules, maintenance of weight loss is HARD. The support in this group is just phenomenal, and that is pretty much why I keep coming back.

Anne, I think you hit on some really good points. I admit that I'm trying to maintain at a body fat % which is considered very low for a woman my age. My BMI is normal, but only because I have a high ratio of muscle.

As for the hunger and satisfaction factor, we have similar experiences. I never feel satisfied unless I'm stuffed...one of the reasons why I don't veer too often into comfort foods. I'll never stop until I explode On the other hand, I'm literally always hungry. I keep hoping that at some point my body will adapt and realize that this is what it's going to get! It's not that I need more food to maintain- I've tried that and I gain. I'm just always hungry no matter what or when I eat, unless I'm in that stuffed condition.

Age is a huge factor. Sorry, you under forties, but your body really does change. And for me it changed with each pregnancy.

Nope, that's not a tradition in the biological sciences either. Statistical variation is most assuredly part of the first year of grad school Unless you're talking about social sciences, where they just make up statistics to sound scientific (apologies to any psychologists or sociologists out there....I have an undergrad degree in anthropology )

Mel

I agree that each of us is an experiment of one ... we're all different.

Also agree that age is a factor, though I don't think it's as big a one as people sometimes think. There is variability in aging as in anything else. Some older people are more fit and have better metabolisms than some younger people ... and as aging becomes more advanced, the reverse (IMO) process starts ... I think it's rare to see a very obese elderly person, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

Sorry Meg I didn’t mean to imply that your post was a bummer. I have been reflecting over the past few weeks of how far I’ve come, how far I really still have to go and your post really struck a cord with me. I am now facing that this will be continuous work. I kept hearing this word “maintenance” over the past months but never gave any thought to what this really meant for me. I knew it was coming and thought I’d see what it was about once I got there. I was still in the back of my mind thinking I would be like Neil Armstrong sticking my flag on the moon thinking woo hoo finished, lets have a party! Reality is a place I call home, sometimes I just don’t like to. Illusions and assumptions get me in trouble.

In 2001 I lost 110 lbs and then gained 50 lbs back because I was not in the, “maintenance loop”. I had no idea what I was really undertaking and it took slipping up for me to learn. I from the get go I was not like other people for the fact that even though I was 296 I never had tried to lose the weight. I really didn’t get it. When I got married I moved to Canada and decided to start reading everything I could get my hands on about healthy weight lose. I became my own science project. It was easy in a since to take the weight off because I exercised, counted calories and wha la it worked. But in all my reading ‘Maintenance” was for the most part passed over. When I finally reached a weight I was feeling pretty happy with that’s when it happened. I slacked off, lost complete control and went back to binging.

I am so grateful for threads like this that address some of the not so well know issues of weight lose. That old adage, “if I only knew then what I know now” ringing loud in my ears. Over all though, and this might sound weird, I am glad I slipped up. I have learned so much from this gain it is immeasurable. This is always going to be a learning process and the curve is different for everyone in some way. I think overall though that we are more conscience of what we eat and what we do than others because we have to be. If I didn’t pay attention I really feel that my inner fat girl would consume me. Maybe others can be less aware of things but I for one cannot. So thank you all for such invaluable information. What would we do without eachother.

What a fascinating thread.

I agree with many of the points here - we are all different and need to find what works for us. We cannot eat or not move like most of those around us in our day to day lives. The biggest difference I see this time in my journey, as opposed to the gazillion other times, is all along my way I have kept the idea of "maintenance" as part of my "loss" plan, not seperate sections. I hope I said that well. What I mean is for every change and new habit I made I consciously asked myself, over and over, "can I do this for the rest of my life?" and "how does this make me feel?" I have been reading as much as I can on maintenance (very scarce literature - bummer) and talking with people here and in my physical (?) life that have been successful, not just at weight loss and keeping it off, but other areas of their lives as well. One of the things I see over and over with "success" is that committment on new habits - "I can do this for the rest of my life".

I decided this time that I would implement my own "Baby Steps" program (from that fabulous old movie "What About Bob") and try to change on habit at a time, get a handle on that, and move to the next. At first it was only a food choice or exercise choice, a few months later, one of each, now, not tracking time so much as "changing up" to keep things interesting and resetting goals. And, to be honest, there where some habits I tried to change, decided I could not at that time, and came back to later (hamburgers being a perfecgt example). It has taken me a long time to get where I am today (about 22 months so far). Right now I have the time and regardless of what ichose to do or not to do, time would still pass. I now know I could not go back to my "old" way of eating or not exercising - I have really paid attention to each change and how it has made me feel and asked not only "can I live like this for the rest of my life?", bu "do I WANT to live like this". I eat between 1400 - 1600 calories a day, run 4 times a week, lift weights 3 times a week, do other cardio 2 times a week and try for 3 sessions of either yoga or pilates. Yes, it is a lot, but it makes me happy. I have not been this happy in years and that is the ringer for me. I forgot how much fun happy is!

Remember, we are not "normal" in any other areas of our lives - we are all individuals and that is what makes us exciting and interesting on a number of different social levels. Why should our eating or exercing or general health knowledge and status be any different? "Normal" is nothing but a statistical aberation - we are more powerful than that.

Speaking of successful people (OK, women), I am now reading Mustang Sallies: Success Stories of Women Who Refuse to Run with the Herd by Fawn Germer - I highly recommend it for inspiration and encouragement.

Thnaks for starting this discussion, Meg. I look forward to more comments.

As always very interesting points and discussion.
Everyone has to find what works for what they need and want to accomplish.
As a long-term maintainer I will give some of my personal observations.
13 years ago I began this lifestyle, 13 years later I continue.
1: Personally I can gain weight like no one I know. A month to six week of slightly higher eating and I can show a 12-15 pound weight gain.
2: Slacking on exercise for the same 4 to 6 week period has about an 8-12 pound gain ratio.
3: Combo of slacking on exercise and eating 15-18 pound gain. This slacking is a slight variation of the exercise and eating routine. This is not an abandonment of the lifestyle just a losening.
3: Additional attempts at losing the regain are more difficult in term of time and effort required for the same result.

Thats the facts for me.

Gina, I really resonate with your four points, especially this one: "Additional attempts at losing the regain are more difficult in term of time and effort required for the same result."

Amen to that.

It's interesting that your observations show that your regain is higher when eating slightly more for a given period than when slacking off from exercise for the same period, and that slacking off on both fronts nets an even higher regain. That's true for me, too.