Every single biology student on this planet will tell you that many, many factors go into the "metabolic rate at which you burn food." And it's not a number that's cast in stone, it changes from day to day, as a constant adaptation to the environment. Put a person in a freezing environment, and she starts to shiver, which burns calories. But her in a hot environment, she starts to sweat. It even changes according to mood, because if I get really pissed off, my heart rate goes up, I start sweating, flexing, and I get ready to "fight or flight!" My metabolism adapts to my needs immediately.

But an overweight person, especially one who has been overweight for a very long time, has a "feedback loop" effect that makes weight loss that much harder. Being overweight makes it harder to move, so you move less, and move more slowly. I'm talking about the activities of daily living, here, not necessarily planned exercise. Less movement over many years translates to a lower metabolic rate overall, which tends to make you store food as fat rather than burning it. Eventually you get to the point where you can't move well and you're not burning much, either. So you get fat on few calories.

Repairing that situation takes YEARS, --really-- years, because the whole body almost has to be rebuilt, along with any tissue damage related to being overweight, such as kidneys, liver, etc. So you may very well not see any weight loss when starting an exercise program. I lost 30 pounds in my first 2 years, but that's 1.25 pounds a MONTH! Not much at all. But I accepted it because I wanted my whole system to be functioning in a normal, healthy way, so I had to let the healing process happen cell by cell by cell. Once my body had rebuilt a more normal metabolism, it "allowed" me to lose faster. So it's true, I have a faster metabolism than many obese people. But that wasn't always the case. I helped my body BUILD a faster metabolism over 2 years of conscious, steady effort. And if I had not made that effort, I would surely have laid the groundwork for a slower and slower metabolism every single year, with more and more weight gain.

It's going to be harder still for a person who has been overweight for decades, because the body's metabolism is that much more damaged. But that doesn't mean the body can't heal, to a remarkable degree. It might take a person 5 years or more to repair the metabolism, but that effort is not wasted, even if it doesn't "show" for years.

And as far as the psychological issues go, there may very well be a genetic factor there, too. But what of it? I may have the genetic disposition to homicidal psychosis, but I don't "have" to express that genetic tendency by murdering my fellow man. I may have a genetic tendency to depression or binging, but I can get myself to a shrink, I can take meds, I can act. Day by day. I may still have a disorder, heck, I do have a disorder, I'll always have PCOS with it's tendency to obesity. But I don't have to give in to it.

But I don't have to give in to it because I believe I have free will. It's the fundamental belief in free will that drives positive action, in the weight loss arena as well as in many other areas of life. The belief in free will over fatalism and determinism gave us both the scientific method and modern democracy itself. So a scientist, of all people, who tells me that "free will is an illusion" is being very, very irresponsible indeed.

And here's the ultimate evil place where this type of nasty Social Darwinism leads: if all these overweight people have bad genes, and they can't be fixed, then maybe we just shouldn't have them in the gene pool at all. After all, fat people cost taxpayer dollars and they're lazy and don't work, so why should they be around mucking up the efficiency of the State? You see where I'm going with this: this doctor is just another nasty outbreak of Social Darwinism-- the very basis of Fascism in our time.

There are always forces who will tell us we are "fated to fail" because of our genes, our sins, our neuroses, or our class. There are people who say we're no good, it's no use, give up, give in. But that's not true! It will never be true.

It was a group of democracies with the "illusion of free will" who led the fight against Fascism the last time around. Millions of ordinary, genetically flawed mere humans, making mistakes every day, beat back that horror. They died. They won. You can win.

We will win.

OMG!!!!! you are TRULY fabulous... and taking that social darwinism to its logical conclusion: we will ALL be encouraged to die off because we ALL have something wrong with our genes. oh yes. that's it... DUH... we're ALL programmed to die!!!

All I can say is that I am in awe of this dialogue and I'd much rather have coffee with the two of you than tar and feathers. :) Thank you both for the thought-provoking article and insights. Much to think about here. It's not a simple issue, is it? Of course, since we LIVE it every day, we know there's no easy answers.

BTW, Jiff, I just went and looked at the Chicago pictures and pink is your color, dahling.

thanks meg... i consider hot pink to be a neutral color for me!!!!

i've been meaning to do more research on this issue, but haven't had the time... maybe i'll find more STUFF this week... or maybe not. we'll see...

Where are JIff's pics. Please...

I don't even want to comment on all that was said but WOW it was interesting to say the least...:bravo:

Jiff -- please share any interesting research with us. :) Remember the thread in which you researched the 5% issue? http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35031 Fascinating info!

Obviously the whole issue of obesity is extremely complex and like I said earlier in the thread, I don't doubt that there's a genetic/biochemical/environmental basis for obesity. As Seek so correctly points out, this is also true for most diseases. It's our starting point but doesn't necessarily determine where we'll end up. I do believe, to a large extent, that's in our hands.

Sometimes I analogize my lifelong battle with weight to my 18 year old son's battle with diabetes. We talk a lot about it -- what it's like to be a teenager with a disease when all your friends seem so normal and carefree and how it seems so unfair at times. But regardless of the fairness of it (and it's never fair for anyone, especially a kid to have a disease), he has certain things that he MUST do to manage his disease or else he'll have serious medical consequences -- testing his blood, insulin shots, exercising, eating carefully etc. He doesn't have the option to ever say that he doesn't feel like it or is too tired or just to give in to cravings etc.

Much of this is true for us too, because whether or not obesity is a disease (I don't want to open THAT can of worms right now :lol: ), we all know people who can eat whatever they want and never gain a pound (I don't have to look far -- across the dinner table every night at DH -- if you offered him a million dollars to gain 50 pounds, he couldn't physically do it). It seems so unfair to me at times too but ... just like DS, that kind of thinking doesn't get me anywhere at all.

So the way I look at it is that there are certain things that I MUST do to manage my obesity (I still consider myself at least potentially obese -- never cured). Things like daily exercise, meal planning, journaling, monitoring my weight etc. Else there will be serious consequences for me too -- maybe not immediately life-threatening, as in the case of diabetes, but eventually serious. So I tell myself that these things aren't optional and don't depend on if I feel like doing them -- I HAVE to do them to manage my obesity. If my kid can manage diabetes (and he is doing beautifully :) ), then I can certainly manage this.

So what I'm saying is that we have to play the cards we're dealt. Life isn't fair but we only get one shot at it. This is my life -- this is who I am -- and through my choices and actions, I want to make it the best life that I possibly can.

Going back to the origins of the thread, I was outraged by Dr. Friedman's statements because of the chilling effect they may have on someone who wants to take charge of their life and live it in the best, healthiest way that they are able. Our genes and environment and biology affect but do not determine our destiny -- I really believe that, in the end, it’s up to us.

My two cents. :)

PS -- Ilene, the 100+ Club had a get-together in Chicago and pix are here: http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?l=jac...52&AID=1614006

Thanks Megster! Jiff, Jill, Bev and Sandi you gals really look like you had a great time...Lucky you! It's so much fun to put a face to the name...

oh we DID have a fabulous time!!!! lots of yakking.. several miles of nonstop walking [really!!!!]. and the weights at the gym on saturday.. bev had never been inside a gym, and was a real trooper on the machines.. and much stronger than she thought!

food was reasonably clean, too. well, even though we went to the TASTE OF CHICAGO. but we saved up for the GOOD STUFF. however we defined it [for me, that meant jerk chicken!!! and not bothering with things like pizza and fries. THOSE i could get anywhere at any time. i wanted the SPECIAL stuff]

many discussions of weight control. personal control. what we're up against. how we're dealing with it. lots of tea. little sleep. <SIGH> I'd do it again in a heartbeat. and just about anywhere in north america, too!!!

after my last post, i came to a conclusion: we all face different challenges in life. and meg pointed it out very very eloquently. it's genes. it's environment. it's emotion. psychology. and the mix may change daily, but it's certainly different for each and ever one of us. we HAVE to figure out the formula that works for ourselves. and stick with it. science isn't much help at the moment... so we have to be open to the GRAND EXPERIMENT and the collected wisdom of places like this.

Seek, Jiff, and Meg... Where is THE book, I always tease Meg about that, you gals write so well. I can never, ever express my feelings on paper, or verbaly for that matter, as well as you gals do. I love reading all of your posts because they enlighten me each and every day...

My conclusion is that we are all an experiment of one...

Good points on this thread. I guess my main quibble is with statements about the percentages of people who regain weight (not meaning by any poster here but by researchers, the media, etc., etc.). Statistics are meaningless when taken out of context to make a point ... there are so many questions, so many variables. There are also statistics about people who don't regain weight ... :)

Without question, there's a genetic factor, but more data is needed ... lots more..