The cheating hierarchy
 

Some cheats are a whole lot more damaging than others. The longer I do Ideal Protein, the more I realize you should just never cheat.

However, most people at some point will. You'll have a special occasion or you'll be traveling and you will give yourself permission to cheat. It helps me to understand which cheats are the most damaging and which cheats are the least. If I do, through lack of planning or a failure of willpower, find myself in a situation where I'm tempted to go off plan, I try to stick with the least damaging cheats. I will ask myself - can I substitute this thing I'm planning to cheat on for another cheat that is less damaging? I have a hierarchy of cheats in my head. At the risk of creating some controversy, I want to know what you think the hierarchy looks like.

Here's an exercise. Look at the 12 items listed below and put them in order of most damaging to least damaging, according to the IP protocol. I'm curious to see if your list looks similar to mine.

Regular salad dressing – Ranch, blue cheese, caesar
Fatty meat – ribeye, strip, NY steak
Extra unrestricted protein packet
Complex carbs – brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
Sugar + Fat – doughnuts, French fries, ice cream
Off plan vegetables like artichoke hearts
Nuts
Simple carbs – white bread, white rice, pasta
Fat free dairy - skim milk, yogurt, cottage cheese
Extra restricted IP bar
Fatty dairy – cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
Sweet sauces - barbecue, teriyaki, cocktail

First of all, this statement is false - absolutely not true. Assuming that "most" people do and will cheat, and that most everyone will give themselves "permission to cheat" is wishful thinking on the part of those posters who continually bombard these boards lately with talks of cheating.

Second, a cheat is a cheat. There is no hierarchy.

I am not understanding the purpose of this question, unless it is simply to justify eating something not on the sheet.

If you can cheat and be successful, more power to you!

The way I look at is ...

it took a lot of willpower and 8 days of strict dieting to lose my last 5 pounds ...

Could I cheat? Sure, it would be fun for one day.

But then tomorrow my scale will show I gained 5 pounds (probably from salt).

Then I will spend the next 2 weeks trying to lose those 5 pounds to get back to where I was.
In the meantime I spent another x dollars on IP foods and more time went by and I made no progress.

Is it worth a one-night cheat for all that? No (not for me at least)

I couldn't have said it better.

To reiterate - a cheat is a cheat. This is a "no cheat" diet (and you aren't really cheating the "diet" - you are cheating yourself, read the thread lisa linked to up there).

Right on, sister!

Wow! I always love to read the responses when somebody mentions the "c" word!
Remember folks that we are all adults here and answer directly to ourselves. What we do and don't do only hurt ourselves.
I strongly applaud all the 100% IPers out there, and I myself am staying 100%. I do not believe this thread was started to encourage cheating and I do not think that anybody should be chastised for this post. We are all entitled to our opinions. What we believe and don't believe is up to us. If you don't like what you have just read then carry on.
Remind me to NEVER mention if I cheat... WOW

[QUOTE=DJ72; If you don't like what you have just read then carry on.
Remind me to NEVER mention if I cheat... WOW[/QUOTE]

Well, let us take a look at this, shall we?
You are saying if we don't like what we read, to just carry on? Yet, you obviously didn't like what you read in my post. So shouldn't you just "carry on" also?
Please, explain that to me. I'm dying to know the logic behind that statement.
I gave my opinion to something that was posted. The original poster certainly had to know this was a controversial topic, considering all of the trolls starting "c" threads lately.

Wow. At least you're being kind-hearted and polite about this. Troll certainly seems like a strong word. But hey, you be "true" to you.

I agree troll is harsh. I think the cheating conversations can be usefull not really for phase 1 but for phase 4. The list that 2much2do may be a way to discuss how to eat permently....if we think of food as cheating it looks MORE appealing, in my opinion. If we all could stay 100% all the time we all, or most of us, would have lost our weight on our first diet. I am willing to bet this is NOT most of our first diets....**** I have been on a million

Very well stated!
Had the cheating post been put under the 100% thread I would have found that completely disrespectful.
Now having been at the rath of a post I totally understand why some people tend to just lurke and not post. Sad really because there are so many amazing people here!

For the record, I was not calling anyone on this thread a troll, and I do not appreciate the accusation. I was referencing the several threads where people, certain people, continuously start the cheating conversation, only to bait people into arguing. I am not the first, nor will I be the last, to utilize the word "troll" when referring to trouble makers on message boards. Troll is a commonly used term. Google it.
As far as the original post in this thread, I maintain my stance that a cheat is a cheat. If someone is in a situation where they "feel" they have no choice but to have full-fat ranch dressing on their salad, they are perfectly within their rights to do so. BUT, that is no more or less a cheat than pouring pure maple syrup on your pancake.
A cheat is a cheat.

I agree!

Cheating
 

I guess the idea of thinking about cheating makes me nervous as I try ever to head in that direction, so far 100%.

I will admit, though, that if I WERE to think about it, there would be no contest in heading straight for the doughnuts or ice cream.

The rest are really not tempting to me. It has always been the sweet baked stuff that got me into trouble but that was in a different life and this is now.

Relax. Cool down. Blowing up because of nothing really just raises your cortisol levels and slows down your weight loss. Remember, it is your weight loss you should worry about, not that of other people. Weight loss is personal and there are hopefully many different successful roads to it.

Lolo70!!!!! Holy cow look at your weight loss! You are doing it right!
Great advice. Cortisol is a beast!

I have been trying to get up the courage to post this for a long time, but I was afraid it would devolve into everyone lecturing each other and fighting.

Knowing where foods rank has been very helpful to me. I thought it might be helpful to others. But as you can see, we can't even have that discussion here because everyone is too busy fighting. I should have kept it to myself.

There are times when an emotional stress would make it so easy to resort to old habits of stuffing my emotions down with food. I just can't go there.

I feel fortunate I have been able to stay 100%. I agree that thinking about cheating makes me uncomfortable as well, but it is a reality that if we lower our guard and disregard the reason we are on IP, and stop holding ourselves accountable it is a slippery slope that will lead to no good.

We all have varying opinions and such strong feelings about this because it affects our relationships, our self esteem, and impacts our health for the rest of our lives. I am so glad that we have such passionate members who are supportive as well as tough on one another. Please everyone remember that intent and tone is very hard to convey in written format and to always try to imagine the good intent behind a message.

By the way, I think it is very helpful to understand how these foods affect us. It will be important in maintenance to make the best choices. For now, on P1 and during phasing off, I think you could rank these all #1 as worst cheats. lol. Anything that is not OP would be #1 on the list. :hug:

I was excited to read this thread and compare others ratings to my own.

To get back to the original purpose of this thread, here's my "hierarchy"...judge if you wish, but in order to keep my sanity I've chosen to eat a salad with regular dressing instead of a pizza...maybe it affected my losses, but I'm perfectly content with my progress.

4. Regular salad dressing – Ranch, blue cheese, caesar
5. Fatty meat – ribeye, strip, NY steak
12. Extra unrestricted protein packet
6. Complex carbs – brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
1. Sugar + Fat – doughnuts, French fries, ice cream
10. Off plan vegetables like artichoke hearts
8. Nuts
2. Simple carbs – white bread, white rice, pasta
9. Fat free dairy - skim milk, yogurt, cottage cheese
11. Extra restricted IP bar
3. Fatty dairy – cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
7. Sweet sauces - barbecue, teriyaki, cocktail

We'll said.

So true!

I'm glad you shared. I'm curious as to how your list compares to mine. Would you mind sending it to me in a private message?

I hate that I feel like I have to defend myself. I have been on IP since July 4, reached my goal weight (the lowest weight I have reached as an adult), and cheated just a few times. Those times mostly involved work events where it would have been extremely conspicuous to stay on plan.

When I'm in a difficult situation and I look at the various options, it's important for me to know whether I'm better off eating that salad with nuts in it (and hoping I can pick them all out) or chicken breast with a slice of cheese melted on top. Which is worse for me?

I didn't realize my situation was so unique. I do have a very intense job working with lots of elected officials, chief executives and other influential people. It's just not always possible for me to slip out of an event and eat my own food. I don't always know how long I will be at an event. I think I've done an excellent job staying on plan considering my circumstances and my results show that.

I'm really surprised at the attitudes here. dak1lls - I appreciate your outlook on all of this. But do you honestly believe that eating a doughnut is just as bad as eating extra vegetables? Or that eating french fries is the equivalent of eating an extra unrestricted packet? To me, there is a distinction and it is an important one.

Lisa - you posted the link to the Real Cost of Cheating - as if I haven't read that document a dozen times. I get it. I really do. Cheating is bad. But having extra fat or extra protein doesn't compromise your results to the same degree that carbs do. I could eat some almonds and still stay in ketosis. But 3 bites of a doughnut and I'm going to be paying for it for a week.

As I leave phase I this week and start trying to learn to eat in the real world, I think these distinctions matter. I'm sorry I'm the only one who feels that way. I don't think this group is the right place for me.

Give 2much2do a break
 

Hi 2much2do,

I am sorry that you are getting such a hard time. I think that your question is a valid one. I would re-phrase it as which cheat is most likely to bring me out of ketosis. Ideally, we would all be 100% on plan all the time, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.

I am also new here. I was humming along really well for three weeks 100% on plan and then had a really stressful event come along last week and I ate 2 additional restricted packets one day. I was ravenously hungry and really miserable for the next week (e.g., headaches, dizzyness). I still lost 6 pounds last week, but the cheat made me miserable because I shifted myself right out of ketosis. If I had cheated with something that had fat and/or protein but not carbohydrates, it would have still been a cheat that slowed down my progress, but at least I probably wouldn't have had the miserable follow up week trying to get back into ketosis.

I would say that the cheat with the least amount of carbohydrates would be the least damaging. I am not planning on cheating any time soon, but if I slip up, I will try to make sure that I am eating additional protein/fat and not additional carbohydrates.

Of course I am new here, and many people who have done well on this program advocate 100% on plan. I don't disagree. I just think that we need try NOT to stray in a direction that makes it incredibly hard to get back on the path, and need to forgive ourselves when we slip up.

Best,
Anita

I also think it is a very different outlook once you have reached goal than it is when you're on P1 and facing a plan for HOW TO STAY ON PLAN no matter what.

An IP coach would consider ANY deviation from the P1 sheet a "cheat"

The tone of the original post makes it sound like the cheats are planned, rather than planning to NOT cheat. Most of the folks on P1 are working hard at staying OP.

Again, a totally different outlook once you reach goal (first of all, probably shouldn't be calling it "cheating").

I think what we have here are people on 2 different tracks.

Interesting question:

Here's my hierarchy:

5. Regular salad dressing – Ranch, blue cheese, caesar
11. Fatty meat – ribeye, strip, NY steak
12. Extra unrestricted protein packet
1. Complex carbs – brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
2. Sugar + Fat – doughnuts, French fries, ice cream
10. Off plan vegetables like artichoke hearts
8. Nuts
3. Simple carbs – white bread, white rice, pasta
9. Fat free dairy - skim milk, yogurt, cottage cheese
6. Extra restricted IP bar
4. Fatty dairy – cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
7. Sweet sauces - barbecue, teriyaki, cocktail

I completely see what you are saying and simply was trying to show you the hierarchy I have placed on these items. You asked how others would place these in the hierarchy of cheating and I answered truthfully.You stated, "to me there is a distinction". Each of us makes the decision on how we will or are able to follow IP; based on varying factors. Our schedules and jobs being a vital factor. My distinction, based on my own life is that they all rank #1. I have unfortunately failed to plan and been in a position where there was no "good" option that was OP. I ended up drinking water and not eating until later. It may not work for everyone and always depends on the circumstances. It doesn't mean I don't live in the real world. It simply means I made a different decision. You should not feel you are defending yourself if others express a differing view.

It may be helpful to realize that everyone's job is important. I'm not quite sure why posting how "influential" the people you work with are is relevant to this conversation. I work with critically ill patients. Some people who post here are teachers of special needs children. And, yes, there are even some very important stay-at-home mothers. EVERYONE's job is important.

If you had begun this thread by stating you would soon be leaving stage 1 (which you just now mentioned after explaining how important your job was) then maybe the responses you received would have been different. But you entitled it "cheating hierarchy" and stated that everyone cheats, which they do not.

And I'm still trying to understand how elected officials and influential people would cause you to not follow protocol, as you have obviously been following it up until now and have done very well!

almonds
cheese
avocado
peanut butter

all good fats with hardly any carbs

good luck in your weight loss journey....

My list
 

1. Extra unrestricted protein packet
2. Off plan vegetables – avocado, artichoke hearts, carrots
3. Nuts
4. Regular salad dressing – Ranch, blue cheese, ceasar
5. Fat free dairy
6. Fatty meat – ribeye, strip, NY steak
7. Fatty dairy – cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
8. Extra restricted IP bar
9. Complex carbs – brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
10. Sweet sauces – barbecue, teriyaki
11. Simple carbs – white bread, white rice, pasta
12. Sugar + Fat – doughnuts, French fries, ice cream

I have to eat at catered events quite often, so keep in mind that I'm usually trying to pick things out of meals that have already been prepared. That's my context.

I listed the unrestricted packet first. I still exercise (cardio only), so my coach has indicated that if I get hungry, I can do an extra packet. So that is my first fallback. I've only had to do it twice. But usually if I get hungry, it's because I worked out too long or too hard.

I put the off plan vegetables second - mainly because the quantities are usually really small. When I order the steamed vegetables at Rumbi's, they can't take the carrots out. So I end up having to pick out shredded carrots. I never can get every last one. But I figure I'm better off eating a few shreds of carrots than ordering anything else on the menu. I've had the same thing happen with salads that show up and have artichoke hearts in them. Sometimes they hide in the lettuce and it's hard to pick them all out.

Nuts are a toss up. My coach tells me I can eat a few almonds or pistachios and not affect my ketosis. So if those are in a salad, I try to avoid them, but I don't feel like I have to be fanatical about it.

I've only had regular salad dressing once - when I ran out of dressing packets. I order it on the side and just dip a little lettuce in it to lubricate my salad. I think it's better to have the lettuce and vegetables and use a little dressing than to go all day without eating.

I put carb + sugar at the very bottom. I just don't think there is a worse cheat than that. Some of you have put the sauces at the bottom, but those are usually in small enough quantities that they wouldn't give you overwhelming cravings the next day. I know if I ate a bunch of cookies or other desserts, I would have great difficulty saying no to such things the next day.

Princess Peacock - please don't respond to any more of my posts. I don't come here to be insulted and misrepresented. I come here to support and be supported. Your posts are not helpful to me. Thanks!

Princess Peacock,

I can't speak for the original poster, but I don't think that she was implying that she has trouble with the plan because her job is so important due to working with influential people. I don't think that she was implying that her job is more important that those of the other people on the board.

I think that her point is that she works with people who are, or at least think they are, really important and who think that she should be able to completely organize her life around their changing schedules and drop everything at a moments notice. In jobs like this, if are far from the top of the hierarchy, when the important person or people say "jump" you have to jump. The schedules change or are revised constantly and many, many professional work events involve food. Also, if it looks like you aren't eating the food provided at the event and your supervisor or co-workers notice it can cause serious problems in a field where appearances matter so much. I don't work in politics, but I have had a job with some similar challenges and I can't image that it is easy to stay on plan under those circumstances.

Other jobs may make it difficult to stay on plan for other reasons. Other life circumstances may make it harder or easier for some to stay on plan than others. For example, I realize that it is much easier for me to stay on plan than for a mother or father who has to prepare separate meals for children.

I don't think that she was trying to explain why it is harder for her to stay on plan, I think she was just describing why she feels like it is hard for her to stay on plan.

Anita

I think she was just trying to explain that her job isn't as flexible or as regimented as other professions might be. I doubt she was insinuating that her job is more important than anyone else's. I absolutely understand this. On most days my job is very structured and what I have for lunch is up to me. There are days however, like today, where my boss pulls me away for an unexpected working lunch at a pizza restaurant. I can't just pull out my shaker and my foil pouch in the middle of the meeting and start mixing up my lunch. So I chose to opt for the salad bar with light ranch dressing and pass on the pizza. This way I'm eating with the group, not being disrespectful to the host, and still losing weight.

2much2do - I think (I could be wrong, it happens) that what you are really asking is "if you're in a situation where you can't eat what you planned, what is going to be the least damaging to your progress."

Salad - you can eat around the non-allowed veggies as best you can and skip the dressing. Chicken with cheese melted on it you can scrape the cheese off and just eat the chicken. In a pinch you can kind of push the food around on your plate and eat later. Food allergies is always a good excuse - I use the "I'm allergic to dairy and gluten" (which I figure is sort of true - it makes me break out in fat).

You can keep a bar or chocolate soy puffs in your purse and sneak out to the hall for a few bites to keep you going.

Quite honestly, at these catered affairs nobody really pays attention to what other people eat.

I think people here mostly were trying to point out that no cheat is good and with prior planning you can make most all situations work for you and stay on plan.

Congratulations on hitting your goal - that's a wonderful accomplishment you should feel good about!

2much2do- I completely agree with everything you post. I too have been at the brunt of some controversy for similar ideas (as you probably know!)

Why are we not allowed to have one thread on this forum where we can talk about this freely without backlash? I am respectful enough not to post in the 100% thread- as I am not 100% the majority of the time! And by not 100% I mean an extra egg...some shredded carrots in my bagged salads, etc. not chips, cake, etc. and this all ties back in with the heirarchy of foods as you say. I have also been quite happy with my progress as well- I went and weighed in and measured today after a month long "break" (i like to look it as maintenance practice!) I am only up 1.4lbs and still lost another 1.5in for a total of 21lbs and 28 inches since Aug 2! Whoooo! I have now started on the alternative P1 plan. :)

jmanovich - is there another forum somewhere where you don't have to be so politically correct all the time? I've seen some IP groups on Facebook, but I need to maintain my privacy. I know how helpful supportive forums can be - I had a really good one for stillbirth moms that helped me through some tough times. There are some good people on this forum, but I just haven't had a good experience here when I post. There's got to be something out there for us imperfect people!

I haven't found anything comparable yet...something about this forum and the people here just keep me coming back :hug:

Yes, there will always be the few that you just can't get along with- just like in the offline world. Just trying to move past that all.

The problem with me finding a different place to chat is - I do follow IP so closely. I eat the food...I go to the clinic weekly...etc etc I just simply do small modifications. I find that I "jive" the best with these ladies as I have similar struggles and similar NSVs, etc. I just tend to keep the things I do "off plan" to myself now. Hey- if my ticker keeps going down, who knows any different!?

Each of us could come on here and preach 110% but what we do in our private lives away from this forum could be completely opposite. (not encouraging this by any means, just sayin!)

Sending :dust: to all...and to all a goodnight! :)

There should be a 90% thread for those of us that don't pick the carrots out of bagged salad yet continue to lose weight. :)

So start a 90% thread and state at the onset what it is and to whom it will cater too. If you guys are respectfull of not posting on the 100% thread then I would think they would resipricate.

Or maybe an IP ish thread in the low carb section?

Lmao. Love the way you think!

It makes me kind of sad to read all the responses on this thread. I agree with and have followed the whole idea of "this diet is different from other diets because it is a no-cheat diet". I understand the biochemistry involved that means we aren't "being tricky" or "getting away with something" like many of us have done on past (failed) diets.

I tried to comment once, quite a while ago, to tell people about the really truly unpleasant physical side effects I experienced when I put other people's feelings ahead of my own health and ate off-plan. I was also severely chastised, scolded, and felt attacked! And I wasn't even trying to justify the cheat or going on & on about what I ate , thus making others long for that thing. I honestly just wanted people to know about the physical negatives that happen in addition to the whole hassle of getting back into ketosis.

It's too bad this very supportive group can't look at what the writers are trying to convey instead of freaking out about it. I just started Phase 2 and had an incident today where I had to eat somewhere that I couldn't bring my IP goodies into. I ordered what I thought would be good - a veggies & turkey wrap without the wrap - and was halfway into it before realizing that there was mayo (or some kind of dressing) on it. Darn. I'd already tried to get the shredded (teeny tiny shreds) carrots off to one side, and then blam! Yuck!

I think your questions and ideas are REAL and practical. Please don't leave the forum based on this experience. As a previous poster mentioned, when there are no GOOD options, it's smart to know which are the least bad.

In life as in IP, people seem to think that we choose between clearly good or clearly bad options when more often than not, we have to choose between bad or worse and not simply good or bad.

We could make this that thread. the 90%...for all of us who eat the carrots in the bagged salads!!!!!!!!! And I thought I was the only one who did this on IP! haha!