kaplods, well said.
as for those women in the ads that only needed to lose maybe 10 or 15lbs or going from a size 10 to a size 2 (I really don't care WHO I offend here) - WHAT A JOKE! I doubt they miss out on much. People like that make a mockery of what it is like to live with the burden of fat - they are likely the same people who ridiculed us as children. They have no clue what the struggle is all about; they will never have to buy 2 airline seats because they don't fit in one or they will never walk into a restaurant and not fit in the booth and get dirty looks from other patrons. Those kind of people do not help fat acceptance... those people make sure we fat people know we can't get skinny enough and drive help drive home the other negative messages of society.
It also makes me angry when I tell someone I know that I'm doing optifast (cuz eventually they ask why I'm not eating with everyone), and their response is "oh I could stand to lose maybe 10lbs" ---OMG 10lbs is so not even in the same league as 150lbs.
I truly do not understand the cruelty (intentional or not), I don't understand how society can HATE such good people for no real reason. It saddens me to my core to know that there are people in this world - shoot, people that I have even encountered face to face - who not only think that I don't deserve anything good because of my size, but also don't think I have a right to exist and live "normal" because of my size.

Okay, well, maybe I'm just the freak of fat people, then. I don't feel I need an activist group to stand up for me. I'm perfectly capable of standing up for myself. I don't need people to be forced to pretend they like fat people if they don't--we all have physical features that other will find ugly or offensive, but we overcome them by showing who we really are or what we're really capable of. I don't put my life on hold--if someone wants to make fun of my hanging arm flaps when I wear a swimsuit, that's their prerogative. They may be just as likely to make fun of someone with a big nose or bad acne or any other sort of physical imperfection. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying fat people aren't the only ones discriminated against--and yet, we're one of the lucky groups who can do something about it. Even if you don't lose weight, you can still have a positive attitude and far outshine some namby-pamby skinny people

I don't know--you cannot change your gender, your race, or your sexual orientation, so I understand groups advocating for women's rights, racial equality, and gay marriage. I guess I just don't see the point of trying to force people into liking fat people. I mean, when I see another fat person, I may think they look horrible, but that doesn't mean I think they are an unworthy person. I may see someone with a horrifically big nose and think they look horrible, too--but again, it doesn't affect my perception of them as a person. Maybe it would make more sense to me if instead of just weight, these groups were advocating for equality for ANY physical imperfection. You think kids with big noses don't get made fun of or people don't think they're ugly? You think they don't blame their noses when they lose a job opportunity, a romantic crush, or anything else? Every day when I get up, I have to say, "Oh, well, I'm fat...moving on..." rather than, "Oh, God, I'm fat...today is going to be an uphill battle." Yes, I am trying to change it, but for that one day, I can't be 100 pounds lighter, so I have to live my life anyway.

I don't know--I don't really know how to explain this, obviously. And as others have mentioned, it's not that I'm trying to convince anyone one way or the other...just trying to explain my point of view, which I know I didn't do very well in this post

For the most part, I agree with many things you say. I am a strong person, and usually have a positive attitude. When I do not get what I want, I do not automatically think its because I'm fat. Usually my size doesn't hold me back (but I'm sure it does in many ways that I'm unaware of); and I do tend to take the attitude that if you have a problem with my weight then its YOUR problem. But that is just me accepting myself.
I think it is very important when fat people become successful to speak out and make the world look at them! So many "normal" people seem to take an attitude that fat people can never be successful - being fat means being lazy and stupid, so they must be that way with their life as well. I hate seeing so many fat celebrities jumping on the gastric bypass bandwagon; granted it would be something they finally have the means to do, but I think it does a disservice to the rest of us. They can't even keep a job if they stay fat... how horrible, but gastric bypass doesn't change attitudes. I think that Kirstie Alley is a good role model for weight loss, but also would be a good person to speak out about fat acceptance to - she was treated horribly over her weight gain when it wasn't anyone else's business.
Then kids see these tabloids when they're at the grocery store with mom... they can read, they see the pictures - so then they start assuming that fat is bad and fat people aren't any good.
It is a horrible cycle that needs to be stopped - certainly we ought to give it a try; especially for those fat people who are not strong and have not accepted themselves.

Well I will just crawl back into my hole...

This reminds me of Jilly's thread a while back about self loathing at lower weights and the effect of that on people with significant amounts to lose. I think there are some lines being mixed up. I'm not sure what people with 10 pounds to lose compared to people with 150 pounds to lose has to do with the argument at hand. I can understand your frustration with the simplicity of losing 10 as opposed to 150, but you are misrepresenting a lot of people. I'm sorry, but I was horrifically teased in school. What Jill said about her childhood resonated very deeply within me. And when it was all said and done, I *only* had 80 pounds to lose. But for the past 2 years, I have been one of those "need to lose 10 pounds" kind of people so your comment strikes me from both sides.

I also don't understand how "those people" make sure you can't get skinny enough... Perhaps I've misunderstood?

Just wanted to point out: the San Fran fat movement also does work with height issues as well as weight issues. And, I'm sure there are members who would certainly let you know about it if you made fun of someone with a funny nose in their presence. (I'm not a member, and I would.)

Like I said, I've managed to live the life (since about 5 years old) of a fat person and still remain confident in my own extreme greatness, but I also know that that ability comes from an anti-social streak and independance that you only get by being an outcast only child. The lessons I learned to get here were hard ones, and I applaud anyone who tries to make life a little bit better for those around them rather then just "leave them to the wolves".

We are supposed to care about what society thinks about us, that is part of being a social creature. And when what society thinks about you is that you are lazy and stupid, spoiled and selfish... well it can be very hard for people to not believe it after a while. And once you do believe it, how does a lazy, stupid person get involved with their own health? Why would they even care? At some point people have to say "No, I will not accept this. I won't accept it for myself, and I won't accept it for anyone else".

My post was in response to kaplods:
I'm not refering to people like you who have lost a significant amount of weight and still have some to go. I'm talking about the never obese - the people who have always been skinny, they just aren't happy with those 10 extra lbs (Like my mom). I'm sure they don't miss out on much, and I'm mostly sure that they don't go through the emotional roller coaster that we do because of our weight. Those people who have never really struggled with the burden of extra weight and therefore haven't a clue of what its really like to NEED to get the weight off... those people will never know what it is like to live with 80 extra pounds or 100 or 200...

Fair enough. I'm sure I would've picked up on that, but this thread is gettin' long. I appreciate the explanation, though!

There are groups that say that homosexuals can become heterosexual if they only are willing to try hard enough. There are even some people who claim to have done it.

I don't know if every fat person can become a thin peson if they try hard enough. I don't even know if I can, as I haven't been able to do it yet.
I'm not sure that choosing to have sex with someone I'm not really attracted to for the rest of my life, or at least living a life pretending to be attracted to people I'm not, could be any harder than this.

I agree that in an ideal we wouldn't need a GROUP to speak for us as individuals. And I don't. I am well educated, with great social skills, and better than average confidence. I can speak for myself. But there are so many who cannot or do not feel they have a right to. The "group" does not speak for the strongest members, it speaks for the weakest.

Before I read any further, I must say this because it is bothering me. Regarding booths and movie seats and such: There are many that are saying that because they have CHOSEN to be fat that then they can't complain about the clothes that they are paying for or for at least wanting to be in semi-comfortable seats at a restaurant that they are paying to eat at. Well guess what, now we are all CHOOSING to be thin or at least at a much healthier weight, is your money somehow going to be better because it is in a size 8 pair of jeans rather than a size 18? I think that is a load of crap, personally. I plan on losing weight but I doubt that I will ever be as skinny or thin as society or most of these establishments cater to but if I feel good in my own skin and am happy and healthy does that mean I don't deserve a comfortable place to sit because the establishment still thinks I'm too fat?

That's my thoughts for now. I may post more after I finish reading the thread.

And as far as fat being a choice (which I only agree with to a certain extent), most of here know that our weight issues have almost nothing to do with food but is simply a symptom of other things ie. depression, low self-esteem, etc. And when you are deeply entrenched in those life issues, sometimes you feel as if you have NO choice.

But how many size 16 (typically the highest of the "normal" sizes) people have difficulty fitting in places? I'm about a size 24 right now, and I have never not been able to fit into a restaurant booth, a chair with arms, an airplane seat...I would think by the time I reach a size 16, I will fit in everything without having to hope and pray about it first Is a size 16 "as skinny or thin as society" tries to tell us we should be? No...but I, for one, would be ecstatic to be a size 16.

As for the clothing, yes, our money is better (well, not "better," but at least stretches further, which makes it better to those of us living paycheck-to-paycheck) at smaller sizes because (in my experiences, anyway) it's MUCH easier to find less expensive clothing in non-plus sizes. For $50 at Lane Bryant, I'd be lucky to get a cute pair of jeans, but for $50 in many "normal-sized" stores, I'd be able to get at least an entire outfit (pants and 2 shirts to layer). I can currently only find nice-fitting, non-granny-style bras at Lane Bryant, and they're about $30 a pop. If I could get my band size down so I wear a 38B instead of a 44B, I could buy my bras at any department store, including places like Walmart or Target, for like $9.99 I don't know about anyone else, but those are the types of things I was thinking of whenever I cited clothing as an example. I HATE having to pay so much for my plus-sized clothes, but I am paying for those clothing manufacturers to cater specifically to my size. Would you be willing to pay extra in a movie theater to sit a separate section that has wider seats? Because quite frankly, that would make more sense to me than expecting the theater to make ALL their seats bigger.

And as a small reminder, I stated multiple times that each individual is free to do whatever they want (particularly when it comes to chosing which business to give your money to)--I never said everyone should agree with me or do things my way; rather, I'm just explaining how I see things--no need to get defensive just because I have a different viewpoint (my goodness, if I got fired up every time someone disagreed with me, I'd have died of stress years ago ). I say this because some of these replies are clearly directed at me even though they don't include my name, since I'm the only one who has brought up or mentioned certain topics included in the response

Actually Jill, my response wasn't specifically directed at you. You were the first one to mention but it was something that someone else said that really got me fired up (although not as strongly as my words came across). Sorry about that.

As far as fitting in booths, I have very large breasts. I'm talking very large. Whether I am a 14 (my lowest size in my adult life) or a 26/28 (my current size), I can't sit in a booth. My breasts literally sit on the table. That is not a choice, it just is. And it pisses me off that restaurants basically are saying that anyone over a D or so cup have no chance of sitting there. That goes for a lot of rollercoasters that have the harness thingies you have to pull over yourself, movie theaters where the space in between the seats are so small that I'm bonking people in the head with my boobies trying to get to my seat. My point is, I don't think that restaurants, airlines, movie theaters need to totally renovate their establishments to accomodate heavier set people but since they think they are good enough to take our money, they can at least make SOME accomodations because those things wouldn't just benefit us but others like those mentioned in this thread that may have injuries. Or for people like my brother who are very tall and need more leg space than the little bit they call themselves giving you. We don't live in a cookie cutter society and since these places are suppose to serve us they should at least try to satisfy as many people as possible and not just one kind of person.

I'm sorry but discrimination doesn't sit well with me no matter what. I guess my thinking is more along the lines of I think it was Colleen. I just want to shown a little dignity. And I get tired of society in general saying that I am not good enough.

Jill- debate should never be about the personalities involved. I think that sometimes it can get easy to lose the distinction between an argument against someone's point and a personal attack against that person. I can like, even love, someone and completly disagree with them on a point, just as I can barely stand to be in another person's presence and still agree with them on another. I, for one, am not attacking you.


I'm arguing against the view that I see here and other places (and not from any one person) that to me seems to come down to: I don't have this problem, so the problem doesn't exist. I can fit in the booth, so that if you can't, I don't want to hear you asking for better accomodations because it's your fault anyway, and you certainly wouldn't hear me whine if I was in your shoes. I like myself for who I am, so anyone who has troubles accepting themselves because of their weight should just lump it and get over themselves. Every man for himself, and if you make some mistakes, don't expect help or encouragement from anyone while you try to correct them.

This is certainly not an uncommon view- but it's just not one that I can subscribe to or with which I can find any common ground. Am I an idealist? Probably, but I want to live where people actually care about each other enough to try to make life as pleasant for everyone as possible. Some place where mistakes and bad choices can happen without meaning that the people who make them either bad or are themselves mistakes. Some place where a restaurant owner might choose armless chairs, not because he has been picketed or bullied (I'm not sure what people think the fat movement is doing to the poor restaurant owners out there, I'm surprised their plight never makes it to the news), but because the think it's a nice thing to do for people who have a harder time in armed chairs. Some place where the jerk laughing at the fat woman in the swim suit down at the ocean is actually chided for his boorish behavior by a near-by stranger. A place where the only thing fat people have to worry about is getting healthier.

And even if I never get to live there , I'm glad for those people who at least try to make that place a reality.

Hmmm....as a ex business manager the idea of "attempting" to accomodate all of the different types of bodies out there is seriously unrealistic. Tracey you know I LOVEish you....But its simply bad business . Not to mention the poor architech that would have to try and fit it all in....The seats for the Larger patrons go here ... are these to be seats reserved for larger people? The tall people seats over here....Ugly people isolated in the back room...(I'm kidding!!!LOL) How would we determine who got to sit there in a sold out show? Are we to impliment a broader disability law and consider up to a certain size disabled? And who would be there to make this determination? There is alot of $$$$ involved here. Thats the businesses bottom line. PERIOD! Businesses do what makes them the most $$$$. If its catering to larger people or MORE people geuss who wins. If for every one larger seat a corporation can make two or three small ones and increase the profit turns that's what they will do. It is certainly not personal. My corporation implimented mandatory scooters (Two or three depending on volume) for those who are unable to make the trek over a 100,000+ sq foot store...NOT because they are thoughtful or mindful but because they want your money.