Beautifully written post. ITA.

I don't think she ever said she was in optimal health just that she was healthy.

also, many people want to lose weight regardless of health and even to the detriment of their health. Weight loss and health are not synonymous.

(bolding mine)
that's the part i was talking about. i mean, it's just confusing to me.

Well, I do think there's an evolutionary advantage to having the ability to use calories efficiently and store fat. All us 3FC chicks would be rocking it in a time of famine or back in the hunter/gatherer days :lol::D. Obviously, that's not the reality that we're dealing with right now, but looking at it that way makes it a lot more clear why some of us have a very hard time shedding pounds we don't want or need. We're fighting against our bodies' natural inclination to hang on the every gram of fat. Evolution is a tough thing to undermine. My body, at least, really fights against consuming at a deficit for more than a few weeks at a time.

it seems to me that the FA movement would actually be MORE about health than about attraction, appearance, etc...that's what is confusing to me. accepting fat/obesity as another beautiful body type in an aesthetic sense. but to say that obese bodies are optimally healthy, i don't know. i mean - if you do believe that...that you (general you) are optimally healthy at an obese weight, then really the ONLY reason to lose weight would be for aesthetic reasons...and that seems to be MORE against the FA movement than doing it for purely health reasons. am i making sense??

I think those are all valid questions to ask. What makes someone healthy vs unhealthy? What are our indicators of health? If someone who is obese has indicators of health, why would someone immediately say they are unhealthy?

I can't speak for WarMaiden but I think in general people tend to throw around 'if you are overweight, you are unhealthy' quite a bit. What real evidence do we have?

Also, people want to lose weight for various reasons and we also have plenty of people on this site who have lost a lot of weight and are maintaining that weight loss. Beyond that, I've heard plenty of people say something to the effect that they don't care if they are healthy, they just want to be skinny so weight loss isn't always about health.

Reminds me of the Tyra Banks backlash when was so proud of her big behind and then lost weight. Hmmm.

just to clarify - i definitely agree with you that weight loss isn't always about health. my own journey with weight and weight loss has historically been more about UNhealth than health. and i also agree that there are plenty of people who are thin and unhealthy. i am not obese, but i am also not even close to optimally healthy.

I want to add that not all people who are part of or believe in the FA Movement believe that any attempts to lose weight are bad. NAAFA's official position statement on "dieting" is against it, but they appear to be using "dieting" to mean commercial products and programs with low success rates that are undertaken for the express purpose of reducing weight, regardless of health. I'm not sure what the official position would be on doing something like I've done, changing my food patterns to involve whole, less-processed foods that empower me to exercise and make me feel better, and yes, also resulted in weight loss. What NAAFA appears to be opposed to is the weight loss INDUSTRY, which sells a viewpoint of fat people as lazy/universally unhealthy/ugly to sell more products that, ultimately, don't statistically result in long-term weight loss/maintenance anyway.

Some NAAFA members or others associated with the FA movement may have the viewpoint that any weight loss, even if done healthfully with healthy motives is bad. I don't believe that's the majority opinion in that group.

I also can't believe an obese person is healthy. They are a walking time bomb. If a person wants to remain obese, I think they should have to pay for the privelege with higher health insurance costs.

Like I said in my original post, I have mixed feelings. I do accept that there are people of varying shapes and sizes in the world and I do accept that people deserve kindness regardless of their size (skin color, etc).

I don't accept that an obese lifestyle is a healthy one. I don't believe a slim body is indicitive of a healthy body either (by default).

I just don't believe our bodies were designed to be obese. Yes, we have the ability to store fat in times of scarcity (not unlike hibernating bears) but to embrace said fat as a healthy lifestyle choice doesn't hold weight with me (no pun intended).

Sure, all your numbers may be "healthy" and you may be obese. My mom has smoked for 40 years and does not have lung cancer. I used to lay out in the sun for hours and don't have skin cancer. I drove without my seat belt as a young kid and am still alive. I drove drunk a couple of times in my late teens and am still here.

Yet, most of us agree that tanning, smoking, riding in cars without seatbelts and getting behind the wheel drunk are not exactly lifestyle choices that lend themselves to optimum health and longevity.

Just because my numbers were okay at 315 lbs doesn't indicate health. To me, carrying around 150 extra pounds is not healthy no matter how I slice it just like smoking a pack a day wasn't healthy even though I hadn't gotten lung cancer.

I am not about hate. I love myself immensely. Enough to get real with myself and admit that I wasn't created to settle. I wasn't created to 'get by' or to 'beat the odds'. I wasn't created to 'accept' my obesity as a "healthy" lifestyle choice. I am not talking about 5 extra holiday pounds that come off every spring. I am talking an entire person.

They do. In fact, if they're trying to self-insure or are insured by a small employer they pay a far, far higher cost than the proportional increase in actual health-care costs (to offset the obese folks who are getting a "deal" as a result of group-rates from their employer).

My husband has a friend who is "obese" by the insurance charts. If he had to self-insure he would pay "obese" rates, even though this guy is not overweight at all. In fact, I've seen this guy in shorts without a shirt and he's super-buff (every muscle built up and clearly defined, six-pack and all. Any more muscular and you'd suspect steroids). He's all alpha-male uber-athlete. There's not an ounce of extra fat on this guy, but the insurance company would treat him as if he were obese.

Just to further the discussion, what if that person eats a varied diet of nutritious foods and gets physical activity daily, but still falls into the medical category of "obese"?

The FA Movement generally promotes a concept of "Healthy at Any Size" - basically, that everyone should undertake healthier habits, eat a varied diet, get some exercise - but that making those changes won't bring everyone to a medically non-obese weight. Contrast this with the view of the diet industry, which is promoting a message of "fat is bad, so get thin no matter what unhealthy things you have to do to get there".

In other words, would we, as a society, be better off promoting good health habits and leaving weight out of it, knowing that some people would lose weight with healthier habits, and some would remain overweight or obese, but everyone would be healthier overall?

I agree somewhat, but I don't think you can be "healthy at any size". I think you can begin healthy habits at any size. I think by definition of how our bodies are made, if an obese person is eating nutritious food at reasonable portions and moving regularly, they are going to lose weight. It might be slowly, 3 lbs a month even, but you're going to eventually get to a non-obese place barring serious medical issues.

I do agree though, that striving for health at any size is a great thing. I just think one can't be obese and doing the things above without seeing a downward trend in size/inches.

I guess I am not articulating correctly. I don't understand how one can remain obese and maintain they are eating reasonable portions of healthy food and exercising regularly (without losing steadily, no matter how slowly).

Because if you are truly living a lifestyle of "healthy at any size" I would think your size would be slowly reducing, it seems like pure science would dictate that.

HIJACK Um, can we kinda give this trope about "anti-X is the last acceptable form of discrimination/prejudice" a rest? I Google "last acceptable prejudice" and in addition to fat-ism I get hits on Catholic-bashing, Mormon-bashing, other flavors of Christian-bashing, atheist-bashing, homophobia, age-ism, mental illness-ism, physical disability-ism, southern accent-ism, suburban-ism, even ginger-ism (red-hair prejudice, the latter a British issue probably tying into Anglo-Saxon prejudice about red-headed Celtic peoples). In other words, whatever group the speaker happens to belong to, trait they boast or issue particularly close to their heart, and has truly been or has felt discriminated against or is defensive about, will be deemed by that speaker to be the target of the Last Acceptable Prejudice. If we ever get rid of anti-fat prejudice, society will just replace it with anti-skinny prejudice instead, and there will be a thread about the Society for Skinny Acceptance on 3 Skinny Chicks Trying to Bulk Up. Someone will always find something to be prejudiced about. Take a look at the link below:

http://kateharding.net/2008/06/10/qu...-victory-daps/

I'm not defending any kind of prejudice, and I think we full-figured gals have the right to be seen as attractive as anybody else, even as we strive for health and fitness (the point I trust the Fat Acceptance people want to make) END HIJACK

Not really. According to science, I've pretty much wasted away to nothing by now. :rofl: I eat almost all whole foods, exercise an average of 9 hours a week, cook every night, get plenty of veggies, fruits, lean proteins, and whole grains, and eat about 1500-1600 calories a day. That got me out of the "morbidly obese" category, but I had to actively restrict calories, to the point that I could no longer consistently get through my workouts, to get my body into the "overweight" BMI range (down to the 1200-1300 range). To get into "normal", and I've done it, I have to cut calories to a point that I start losing hair and can't get all of my nutrients in (1000-1100), or exercise more than 15 hours a week. My current weight is a precarious balance between eating enough calories to keep my body from eating its own muscle and few enough that I stay in the "overweight" range.

Given that experience, it is not surprising to me that people could adopt healthier habits and not lose weight, quickly or at all. Our bodies are all different, and respond differently to calorie restriction, hunger, etc.

I'm obese. I'm also, as I posted proof of from a blood draw done last week, 100% healthy. I would bet money that I live every day in a way that is more healthy than approximately 99% of Americans.

Tell me exactly how I am not healthy?

Just because you cannot believe it (because it's been drilled into your head by the culture) does not make it not true.

As to the question of "why I am here," I am at 3FC because sometimes the information here has been useful to me. I did not change my life 2 years ago in order to lose weight (primarily), I changed my life in order to become healthy. I could remain healthy and not lose any more weight very easily. Losing weight is, in fact, quite difficult for me--despite my extremely healthful diet and very active lifestyle.

Any weight loss that I seek now is about athletic performance and vanity. It's not about health for me, because I am already perfectly healthy.

This is a really charged issue. I'm not comfortable embracing my own weight mostly because of the poor lifestyle I was leading that led to this weight. On the other hand obesity in and of itself is a poor indicator of health and studies are increasingly showing this fact.

I just read this article that had good supported arguments on both sides.
Is the Fat Acceptance Movement Bad for our Health?

Please read the articles for the exact studies but in a nutshell the points from studies and medical professionals were:

Being overweight is generally bad for your health especially your heart.

But...

Studies have shown that being FIT is a better indicator of health than being THIN.

On the other hand...

and

Studies are showing that being physically active and eating well is more important to our health then being thin. The perception that thin = healthy, overweight = unhealthy is quite frankly... wrong. The focus should be on exercising and eating well no matter what the size. The medical community and our society shouldn't jump to conclusions just based on weight alone. As well the fact that BMI may be an easy way to track sweeping trends in health it is a horrible and inaccurate way to track health on an individual level.

Beyond the health issue, treating anyone with disrespect based on how they look is just wrong. We should have all learned this in kindergarten right? But for some reason fat jokes and bashing seems to be acceptable in our society.

I usually have problems with the extreme fringes of any activist movement regardless the cause. (Feminism, environmentalism, gay acceptance, fat acceptance, racial movements etc..) Unfortunately these are the individuals that often get focused on to discredit the whole movement.

right - because at your heaviest weight, you were UNhealthy. and as you got healthier, you lost weight. or conversely, as you lost weight you got healthier.

right, that was my other point. about it being more about aesthetics than health.

What I am wondering now, Sarah, is what force in the universe dictated to you the ability to determine exactly what has been drilled into me by culture?

Sure, you may be an obese picture of health. You have chosen to believe that, just as you choose to believe that society is the one telling me (and not common sense and life experience) that being 100+lbs overweight is not healthy.

Given that we are both exercising our freedom of choice here, I still choose to believe the contrary and will continue to 'accept' health and to 'choose' to strive toward a healthy BMI.

Again, another "general discussion" type question, not an argument. We know that a propensity to resist weight gain or rapidly gain is at least partially determined genetically (twin studies have found this repeatedly - here's one from 1986). Now obviously, environment plays a role as well. We all know both people who can eat a LOT and not gain weight and people who eat less and maintain a higher weight (my FIL and his partner are one example...partner can PACK AWAY food and has never had over a 30 inch waist, while my FIL eats the same foods in smaller quantities and struggles with his weight). So here we have a situation where the risk for an potentially expensive health outcome (obesity) is raised by both genetic and environmental factors.

Another health outcome that might fall into that category is breast cancer. Some people carry mutations on the BRCA1 gene, which raises their risk of lifetime ovarian or breast cancer astronomically, to around 50% risk of each. Of course, lifestyle factors do play a role in development of breast cancer as well (not having children, not breast feeding, alcohol use, weight, etc), and some people get breast cancer without having a mutation in BRCA1 or 2, for reasons we haven't quite nailed down yet.

To me, it's hard to understand the difference in saying "you need to pay more for your insurance because you're overweight, and though that might be due in part to genetic factors, lifestyle is involved too and you're too risky to insure" and "you need to pay more for your insurance because you have a BRCA1 mutation, lifestyle may be involved too, and you're too risky to insure". Of course, it's illegal to raise insurance rates on the basis of a positive BRCA1 genetic mutation test, which makes me feel like a bit of a double standard is being applied with obesity (maybe because the exact genes involved haven't been fully identified, and obesity appears to be polygenic and is a more complex issue).

I guess this is what I'm asking - what makes obesity (influenced by genetics AND environmental factors) so morally different than any other disease influenced by both, so much so that an entire industry has evolved to shame people who are fat into losing weight by any means necessary?

I think this is the point of NAAFA - that someone can do everything "right", eating and exercise-wise, and still be a higher weight. So even IF obesity alone were enough to cause negative health outcomes (and I do agree with previous posters that this hasn't actually been confirmed...we have correlational data, but no data proving causation), wouldn't eliminating the shame and focusing on the healthy lifestyle habits that we all have control over make more sense than setting arbitrary standards of a "good weight" and telling people to get there, no matter what, and shaming them if they fail to acheive that standard?

I think you are very reasonable in your points -- but I guess we should determine what we mean by "higher weight". I agree with your examples if we are talking a size 6 woman compared to say, a size 12 -- that can be a variety of environmental, health, genetic, body-type, hormonal issues that can create a situation where they are both living similar lifestyles and 'settling' at different weights.

I still can see no possible way though, that a size 6 woman and a size 26 woman (most factors similar) can be eating and living the same lifestyle (without the larger woman losing or the smaller woman gaining on either side). I don't think anyone's body naturally "settles" at like 275 or 300 lbs if they are living a healthy lifestyle.
That's just my opinion.

ITA

I just wanted to come in and apologize for my part in 'heating up' the thread. Many of us clearly have strong personal opinions on the subject of fat acceptance, health, and what it means to be healthy. My intention was not to alienate anyone or hurt anyone's feelings (if I did that, I am sorry).

I think we can all agree no one should be treated inferior due to their size and that every one is deserving of kindness. I hope we can all come together in other threads in support.

I also think that there are a lot of factors. When I was 25, I weighed 360 lbs, went to Jenny Craig and followed the plan strictly as well as exercised intensely for an hour, 5 times per week. In the first 3 months, I lost 30 lbs and was eating 1800 calories. I then proceeded to lose nothing for 9 months. It was frustrating and I really had a lot of experiences of my body settling at 330.

Fast forward 4 years later, I was diagnosed with PCOS and put on BC pills, started eating healthier and lost 75 lbs in 3 months zooming past my 330 mark. Now of course the question is really was it truly my hormones? It seems hard to believe but that was the only difference I could attribute. Throughout my weight loss I had 'stuck points' for various reasons even one around 280 which was similar to my days in Jenny Craig but eventually my body responded.

Right now, I'm on a self imposed plateau although I exercise regularly and eat healthy foods. My only real issue is portions. Even though I'm happy where I'm at, I do want to lose more weight. I am currently a misses size 14/16 which really was my primary goal of getting out of plus sizes.

Definitely doesn't work this way for me. I started out eating low fat and higher carb, was on a diet put together for me- and did not lose any weight. Well I take that back- in two-three weeks I lost 8 lbs, then for 6 months not one more lb. I worked out, I ate 99% perfect (sure I'd have a meal out once a week). I literally became afraid of food.

Finally I changed doctors, got a nutritionist, and she told me my eating was perfect for a "normal" person- but because I have PCOS I'm eating all wrong. She then put me on the South Beach diet and I started counting carbs. Since then the weight has started to finally come off. It's been slow but it's finally going.

Great discussion btw :)

Lol to the "you aren't fat" comment btw.

Boy if I started this thread it would have been closed long ago! ;)

Just a thought for one of you....

True story....there is a gal here at 3FC...she has not posted on this thread...I remember her always saying how healthy she was, even over 300 pounds, and talked about all the things she could do...even being obese...she is pretty young....

well...WHAMMO...type 2 diabetes hit her....not so healthy anymore....

even had to take drastic measures to get the weight off...

Fight On! :D

:rolleyes:

The fact that I have, up thread, posted scientific evidence from a recent health test (last week!) showing that by medical standards I am perfectly healthy...and that many of you seem to continue to maintain that I am fooling myself...is downright insulting.

Type 2 diabetes does not "just hit someone." While it may seem sudden to the sufferer, the fact is that type 2 diabetes is preceded by years of worsening blood-sugar control.

I have extremely good blood sugar control--my fasting glucose is 81 and my A1C (as tested last year) is 4.6. I am not about to be "just hit" by type 2 diabetes. I might be about to be "just hit" by a bus...but...so could any of us.

I am both fat (obese by BMI) and completely healthy. This is fact.

If I was not consciously making an effort to lose weight by restricting calories, then I would not be losing weight, despite eating perfectly healthy and getting lots of activity. This is fact--it's called "maintenance," and I did it last year for 6 months.

It's really very tiring to attempt to have a discussion with a group of people who seem to be unable to acknowledge fact.

WarMaiden I am happy for you that you are healthy...and I sincerely mean that.

I want all of us here to be healthy...

fat or not!

What bothers me isn't the "fat is unhealthy" argument, it's the way it's used as a weapon and an arbitrary one at that. If you're "beautiful" by current standards (especially if you're wealthy too), you will be praised (and copied) for whatever you are doing to create/maintain that beauty, even if it's dangerous and life-threatening. When liposuction had a higher death rate than wls (at a time when wls had a death rate higher only than open-heart surgery) the demand for liposuction exceeded the number of doctor's trained in the procedure (death rates rose before they dropped). And for the most part, the early liposuction patients were not overweight, they just didn't like the distribution of the healthy amount of fat they did have.

For most of my life, the ways I went about trying to lose weight were extremely unhealthy, and yet I was never criticised for those methods - the feeling seeming to be (and still existing today) that it doesn't matter how risky the method - losing the weight rapidly without regard to the risks is the only "admirable" way to lose weight (anything else is lazy). I didn't learn a successful, sustainable way to lose weight until I was more concerned with the method than the resut. It wasn't until I stopped worrying about the number, and started working on the healthy habits that the weight came off in a way that I could keep off.

It also didn't come off until I was not ashamed of myself. Shame only helped me do crazy things for a short time, it never helped me take care of myself.

Healthy at any size may be a delusion, but it's a delusion that helped me make real and sustained progress for the first time in nearly 40 years. It was only when I focused on the behavior and not the weight that I saw success that I could maintain.

The reason is very clear. When only the number matters, you only work when you can see the results. If you're eating healthy and exercising and the weight isn't coming off fast (or fast enough to meet your expectations), you tend to think "well, this isn't working."

More people abandon diets because they feel they're failing than because they really are. It isn't that weight loss isn't happening, it's that it isn't happening as fast as it "should" (and the should is judged by all of the crazy diets that promise those kind of results - which is essentially every one that is popular. Slow-weight loss diets are never popular weight loss diets).

De-emphasizing weight was the most important thing I ever did for myself. Followed closely by refusing to "hide" by letting social pressure keep me from swimming, bicycling and in general existing in "public" and social settings.

I still get occasional stares and comments that clearly express a belief that I am participating in an activity in which I am clearly not welcome. The social pressure against any woman with an imperfect body swimming, is a personal pet peeve. When I see even tiny women mortified at the idea of wearing a swimming suit, it feels like a knife being twisted in my gut. The best (and sometimes only safe) exercise on the planet for a morbidly obese person is considered the most off-limits socially.


You can't tell me that concern over our "health" is the motivation behind fat hatred. If it were, a fat person in a swimming suit would receive cheers, not jeers.

But that doesn't happen, does it?

This, exactly. It doesn't matter if having a high BMI or body fat percentage is healthy or not. People use "concern for health" as a reason to put down and/or discriminate against those who are obese. I've never seen/heard a skinny person being made fun of for eating an unhealthy meal. I had a work friend years ago who was tiny. She was under 5 feet tall and probably under 90 lbs. She existed on diet coke and hostess snack cakes and chips and candy bars. I never once heard anyone give her grief over what she ate - but I heard tons fo people say how "great" it was that she could stay thin. If she had been 200 lbs, I have no doubt that there would have been snickers, and "doesn't she know better?", and "fat pig" comments. If it was really about health, there wouldn't be that discrepancy. If it were about healthy, people wouldn't make moo-ing sounds out the window if they see an overweight person out jogging, etc etc.

So if someone doesn't subscribe to "fat acceptance" they are "fat haters"?

How extreme.

I don't accept my fat. I don't have to accept or not accept any one else's fat because they are the ones who have to live their lives carrying around all that extra weight. I am only called to treat others with decency and respect, hopefully with kindness - regardless of their size.

I can accept myself without accepting my fat. My fat is not who I am.My fat is a badge of pain, hiding, fear, and years of using food as a way to escape, celebrate, dull pain, express emotions, stuff emotions.

Why in the world would I accept that? Accepting myself is separate from accepting my fat. Accepting myself means I love myself enough not to hurt myself anymore.

Yeah, my 'numbers' are all good too. I want more than just 'beating the odds'. I want more than just 'getting by'. I want more than just a number on a blood test result. I want to live to my full potential - without 100lbs of extra baggage.

Concern for health may not be at the root of fat hatred but it sure as Shirley isn't behind fat 'acceptance' either imo, ....but like I said, there is a world of thought in between the two extremes... and I don't like to live in extremes.

...and if one truly accepts themselves, then dirty looks at a swimming pool is something I imagine wouldn't be an issue. I went to the beach twice this weekend in all my 275 lb glory. People probably thought whatever, but I didn't even notice. I am too concerned with myself and my journey now to notice or care if susie hot pants thinks I am too fat to be on the beach.

That's acceptance, to me. Acceptance of self without accepting my fat -- because I am 100% committed to releasing it even though I am okay at the beach in a bathing suit and all my tests are 'healthy'.

I have a question....

We ALL know that many skinny people are unhealthy! Smokers...junk food eaters etc...no reason to even argue that...

but....

When I see a person that is skinny I usually don't think much about it...although I will admit to notice someone that looks maybe anorexic...but I will also justify it in my mind they may just be skinny by genetics...

but when I see a person that is fat...I just think they are FAT!...and how sad it must be for them to be that way...at the same time wondering if my gut is sticking out far enough that I am noticed as being overweight...

a feeling I do not like at all :mad:

dang beer belly ;)

I guess my question is this...

If you are overweight What do you think when you see someone else that is overweight...and I mean those that are obese and not just needing to lose a few pounds.

Truthfully, I don't think much ... I guess I am wrapped up too much in my own journey to speculate on other people too much. Of course, I notice, but there is no negative judgment attached to it for the most part. Sometimes if I see someone who is seriously obese, like even having trouble walking and such, I feel really sad. I try to tell myself that they are trying to get healthy and they may have already lost 50lbs! I don't know their business so I dunno where they are at exactly in their journey.

Sometimes I feel judgmental (which makes me feel bad) but I realize that judgment is about ME and a reflection on how I used to feel about myself, not about them.

Mostly though, I am focused on other thoughts/plans/my own journey/my family to notice too much.

That isn't wasn't what was said at all. In fact, I had to go hunt and search to try to find what you might have been referring to. What was being addressed was the people that feel it is alright to be openly cruel and mean to people who are overweight. You've already agreed that this is not okay, right?

This discussion has really stirred some things up in people. But this is likely an indication that we all have issues we need to work on. (I've always found that when something makes me really angry there is something else going on.) I've always been pleased that 3FC has been a very supportive environment. We all have our differences of opinion but we are a very diverse group. Tone and intent behind text can so often be misconstrued. I truly just hope the discussion continues in a positive way.

While I feel sort of appreciative that someone is sticking up for "my kind," I acknowledge that A) Being fat isn't healthy any way you spin it and B) It's my own fault that I got this way. Now, if by "fat acceptance" someone means saying a size-14 woman can be beautiful, I'm all for it. But 5'5" 300 pounds is not ok. Ever.

MyBestYear, I think some of us are getting out wires crossed and not understanding each other. I see from your posts that you're talking about fat acceptance on a personal level. That's not what I'm talking about and I think a lot of others here aren't talking about that either. I really don't feel much different than you do with regard to my own body. I don't judge my own worth based on my body type, but I also am not happy with my body. I accept my fat in terms of "this is how I am, right now and there's no other way I can be in this moment" but I would not be happy to be this weight for the rest of my life. The fat acceptance movement, however, is not about individuals accepting their own fat (if your definition of "acceptance" is thinking their body is the best it can be or that fat is better than not fat). FA is about social change, and the social acceptance of people who are chubby, heavy, fat, fluffy, obese, etc. Now, as an OP stated, there are individuals within the FA movement that have negative opinions about those who want to lose weight for any reason, but I don't think the movement as a whole supports that.

THIS. 100%.

I don't think the majority of people would ever tell someone to just accept thay they are fat. Let's face it - As a whole, society would prefer it if we all dropped the pounds!

But not everyone is going to make that descision for themselves, because some people are blessed(And I do mean blessed) enough to feel totally okay with themselves in their own skin... Even if it holds an extra 20... 50... 100 pounds or more. Some people... Are just happy being themselves. And some aren't, but don't know how to change it. But neither of these two groups should be ridiculed or put down for the way they are... And THAT, I believe, is the true message of the FA movement. :smug:

Something that isn't often taken into account is that some of the most popular ways to lose weight, often contribute more to weight gain than weight loss. If you're "doing it wrong," the harder you try, the fatter you get.

In a very real sense, I "dieted my way" to my highest weight. I stopped gaining weight nearly the moment I embraced fat acceptance rhetoric (which at the time was very much focused on HAES (eating whole foods, being active and letting your "natural" weight emerge).

I looked forward to my BBW magazine every month, because I found articles about fat and very fat athletes. Women participating and even teaching aerobic exercise, hiking, white water rafting, horseback riding, swimming, dancing, bicycling and even jogging (personally I think jogging is irresponsible at morbidly obese weights, but it was still great to see people not afraid ot be seen doing something active).

I was exposed to the idea that crash dieting caused more weight gain than loss, and it sure seemed true for me. When I stopped crash dieting, I almost immediately stopped bingeing and I stopped the gain/loss cycle. I didn't really lose weight, but I didn't gain either. I suspect that I would have been a normal weight or only slightly overweight if I had never dieted in the way that I was taught (which was primarily crash dieting). If I hadn't been forced onto the roller coaster of crash dieting at the age of 5, and put on amphetemines at age 13, I think course of my weight and health would have been much different.

It's easy to say that a fat person should have enough confidence in themselves that they shouldn't care what people think of them in a bathing suit - but if no one has confidence in you from the time you're a "worthless, fat kid" it's pretty hard to have confidence in yourself.

I was very lucky in that I excelled in school, made friends easily, was exceptionally creative and funny (escaping bullying by making fun of myself before the bully had a chance to), but I still learned early what people expected of me where weight was concerned and I internalized a lot of those messages.

Swimming was the one athletic activity where I could excel and actually compete successfully with "normal" peers, so I was willing to endure the "death march" to the water. Once in the water I felt safe, because even if someone did say something nasty I didn't have to hear it, if I was swimming.
I don't know why I was able to overcome the social pressure to stay out of the water, because I wasn't able to overcome all of the other activities on the fat people shouldn't list. My mother convinced me that I would injure a horse if I tried to ride one (at 11 and about 200 lbs). She had her own "fat people shouldn't list" ingrained in her so deeply, she had to burn it into me too, regardless of the cost.

My husband is fond of saying that "people are sheep." It's a kind of nasty thing to say, but it's true too. We learn how to treat ourselves and other people by the way we are treated. If we're taught that we are stupid, lazy, crazy, and worthless - we will believe it. It's how the human brain works. "Majority rules," if almost everyone thinks it, it must be true.

My journey to treating myself better runs parallel to my learning that I deserved better and that the common opinion isn't always the correct one. Exposure to FA inspired me to begin that journey. Even though I thought I was a pretty cool person most of my life, I still compartmentalized the fat. I was intelligent, hardworking, ambitious and highly motivated in all areas of my life except my weight. When it came to my weight, I believed the social hype - I was lazy, stupid, crazy, greedy... all the things I was taught to think about fat people and as a result turned on myself (it's why fat people actually have the WORST sterotypes against fat. It's a common finding in the research that fat people hate and hold more stereotypes about fat than even thin folks do).

How can any of expect to be respected if we've not been taught to respect ourselves? And fat people are not taught to respect themselves. They're taught to hate themselves until they become thin enough to be worthy of respect and kind treatment.

I haven't kept up with the arguments of the FA. The last time I belonged to NAAFA was in the early 90's. At the time, the push was to stop crash dieting, stop eating processed foods, and get out in the world and MOVE. HAES didn't mean that you tried to stay fat, it meant that you could improve your health and start participating in healthy behaviors NOW, not just after you'd lost 20 lbs, or 50 lbs or 200 lbs.

Oddly I still see people reacting to a fat person having any kind of life as proof of the person is immoral or crazy. If fat persons (woman persons especially) are seen enjoying themselves in any way they're "deluding themselves into thinking fat is ok." Any fat person who stands up for his or her rights in any way is a weirdo who loves being fat.

My mother was mortified that I dated when I was fat, because I was only going to "get" a guy who would try to keep me fat. Even after marrying a man who outweighed me (which was finally ok only because I was too old to be picky at 35) I was advised that I wouldn't be able to "keep him" unless I lost weight (even if he didn't lose weight. A fat man is often still seen as a better catch than a fat woman).

The wrong ideas about fat have to be combatted, so that people aren't afraid to be seen, aren't afraid to try to get healthy, aren't afraid to participate in life until they become acceptable.

I learned the hard way that putting your life on hold until you lose the weight doesn't help you lose it. Only by living your life can you make progress in chaging it. "On-hold" never works because it fosters depression and depression fosters hopelessness and hopelessness and change are mutually exclusive. You can't change if you don't believe that change is possible.

And we are social creatures, the more people who believe IN us, the easier change becomes. Working in social service most of my adult life, I've learned that it's universally true. Whether it's a career criminal trying to go straight, an addict trying to get clean, a smoker trying to quit, or an obese person trying to lose weight - the more people you have supporting your intended change, the more likely you are to succeed.

Often fat people have very few people truly believing in them. As a society we don't have much faith in people's ability to change (but most especially in regard to fat). We don't hear "you can do it," nearly as much as we hear "you haven't succeeded yet, what makes you think you can succeed now."

I would suspect that 3FC members are more successful than those without such a support network simply because the folks here are saying "you can do it," not "who are you kidding Fatso!"

In an odd synergy of timing, I'm currently reading Lessons From the Fat-O-Sphere - Stop Dieting and Declare a Truce With Your Body. The book begins by emphatically stating that diets and lifestyle changes never work and it's literally impossible to lose weight and keep it off forever, so don't even try. Of course, I don't agree with that.

Otherwise, it's a pretty enjoyable read.