i'm back in action again...too long gone...here's my views...i believe that we do need meat of some sorts in our diet. Here's my opinion..if god didn't want us to eat meat then he wouldn't have made B-12 only available in animal flesh. Yes nowadays we do have supplements and bluegreen algae (which isn't the same form as b-12) but until the 1930's or so B-12 was not found anywhere but in animal flesh and the body needs b-12...BUT THAT BEING SAID. I do believe we eat way too much meat...me included. I try to eat more veggies and less meat. And i try to eat more seafood when possible (but that's another issue with Seafood savvy..another discussion for another day). I was raised with a bachelors and masters in animal science (which is the science of raising farm animals). I do believe it to be important to eat more and more meat of better origin (not the mass production i was trained to believe in during college)...such as pasture raised, hormone free etc. I know i will never give up meat entirely...but i want to eventually go back to the old days and know where my food comes from. I hope eventually to have 10-20 acres to raise free range chickens (for eggs and food)...where they are only put up at night (to protect them from foxex and coyotes)...to have cattle I raise and then personally take to slaughter and know what was put in my cattle. I love anaimals but also believe that animals are food. And I know not everyone could do that and may think it wrong for me to do it (but I also respect true vegans and don't give them a hard time about their decision)...but I do think there is something to be said for "living off the land and becoming more organic". Even when it comes to vegetables. Salad picked fresh from the garden that day has such better flavor. I hope my dream comes true where i can raise my own food...because I do believe (despite my college training) that mass production of everything (not just animals) is not good. I have found some vegan/vegetarian recieps that are wonderful..and when i find them...i supplement them in my diet so I can eat less meat. Im not sure if this helped...but that's my opinion.

I definitely respect your opinion as a vet and someone who has studied animal science. How would you explain that all herbivores need b-12 and they don't eat meat? Does that mean god didn't intend cows, horses, sheep, elephants, etc to not eat meat?

Of course I know we aren't herbivores but I also know we do something that herbivores don't do and that is clean our veggies/fruit to the extreme.

One thing I tend to do on my organic/trusted produce is to not clean it, unless there is visible dirt. I think it would just mean that we were supposed to live more naturally than we do.

kaplods..most herbivores actually have a process in their body that creates B-12....they don't need it from external food sources. We do not have that process in our body. For example guinea pigs obtain b-12 in their feces..that is why g.pigs eat some feces. But other herbivores actually have the process in their gi tract of making b-12 so its not an issue with them. We don't have that process in our body...hence our need for external supplementation of b-12

I'm not kaplods but we do make B12 in our intestines, like other animals. Like other animals, the B12 is made AFTER the absorption period so the B12 goes into our feces and thus in the ground which is why it can be found in unwashed veggies or if we wanted to eat our poo.

It is also why some vegans (NOT ME) believe you don't need to supplement B12 because our body makes it, but making it and absorbing it are 2 different things.

thanks nelie...i forgot that about humans (those pesky human..no wonder i don't work on them LOL). I guess we could eat our feces and be fine (disgusting thought). I also went back to my vitamins book (a class i took about 10 yrs ago) to try to remember exact mechanism etc. B-12 is created by mircoorganisms. In most animals, it is created in the foregut where it can later be absorbed down in the hindgut...a few are hinggut creaters (the ones that eat their feces like g.pigs). So that is why it isn't found on plants...but since most herbivores require special microflora to digest plant material, they have the ability to make their own b-12

I couldn't agree with you more gatorgal, there is no nutritional purpose in eating too much meat, and limiting meat consumption is definitely worth pursuing, I know it has been very beneficial for us.

I never even thought of the B-12 issue! Just recently my uncle had been having dizzy spells and had been losing his balance (he's in his early 80's). He's allergic to most dairy and eggs, and does not like meat very much. After a couple of scary falls the doctor told him he is defficient in B-12 and must either incorporate meat into his diet or get monthly shots of B-12. He has opted for the monthly shots.

Ok now we're not washing fruits and vegetables unless there is visible dirt on them because we want to get the B-12 nutrients from the soil which originates from animal feces? Doesn't sound very appetizing, I would much rather just eat some chicken.

B12 is found in soil because animals make B12, defecate and it goes into the soil. It is a bacteria and it is spread through the soil through natural mechanisms. There are also other nutrients that can be found in the soil. It doesn't mean there is feces on your lettuce. Beyond the most common way to get B12, there are natural supplements as GatorGal mentioned.

I also didn't say "you must not wash your organic veggies if you are vegan". I just was trying to say that I don't worry about organic veggies and washing them too stringently. Even if I ate meat or what not, I'd do the same thing. It is just something I personally do because I am open to extra nutrients, including B12 that comes naturally through our soil. And no I'm not going to go start eating dirt.

I supplement B12 (and other vitamins). I was also just reading something about how B12 deficiencies are more common in the US and other western countries than they are elsewhere, despite western countries tending to eat more animal products than most of the world.

Um, B12 is not a bacteria. B12 is a chemical compound with vitamin activity. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

Some organisms produce Pseudo B12, which refers to B12-like substances which are found in certain organisms but those that produce Pseudo B12 produce a form which does NOT have B12 biological activity for humans, a fact which may pose a danger to vegans and others on limited diets.

Again, B12 is NOT a bacteria.

Vitamin B12 is naturally found in meat (especially liver and shellfish), milk and eggs. Animals, in turn, must obtain it directly or indirectly from bacteria because bacteria is the only organism that can produce or synthesize B12, and these bacteria may inhabit a section of the gut which is posterior to the section where B12 is absorbed.
Herbivorous animals must either obtain B12 from bacteria in their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by reingestion of cecotrope feces. Eggs are often mentioned as a good B12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks absorption. Certain insects such as termites contain B12 produced by their gut bacteria, in a manner analogous to ruminant animals.[

According to the U.K. Vegan Society, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources, as the B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism. Also, vegan humans who eat only plant based foods must ordinarily take special care to supplement their diets accordingly. The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some soy products and some breakfast cereals), and B12 supplements.

While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B12 through consuming dairy products, vitamin B12 may be found to be lacking in those practicing vegan diets who do not use multivitamin supplements or eat B12 fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods often consumed include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy-based products, and fortified energy bars.

Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate or unreliable include laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria.

You are correct, B12 isn't a bacteria, it is found in a bacteria that is found in the soil is really what I meant to say.

My personal opinion is that higher protein diets are more successful than most others. (and fiber) I think that a balance of meat and veggies is so important and people that chose to be vegan or vegitarian should never push it on you like religion!! There is a book called skinny bit*h that I read and the whole book I was like yeah!! I can do this until about 1/2 way when they tell you you CAN'T be skinny with out being vegan. I still read it but it rubbed me the wrong way. TO each his or her own! For me, meat is a staple.

ajowens - I've never read skinny b*tch but as soon as I heard about it, I knew I wouldn't like it. It would be the last book I'd recommend to anyone.

As far as weight loss, I believe and it is my experience that calories determine your success, not the macronutrients. I eat about 70% carbs and I lose weight, as long as I watch my calories.

As mentioned I believe God intends for us to eat meat ~ be vegetarians ~ vegans too...it is our choice.

I also have said I know God didn't intend for us to treat or raise the animals for our food the way it is being done.

I think there is some movement in the right direction on the cruelty to animals issue...hope the "what in the heck are we feeding those cows" issue moves quickly through the battle for healthy eating.


I respect all of your opinions and the reasons why you want to be or don't want to be meat eaters ~ veggie eaters ~ vegans ~ and I have no problem with your choices...it is your choice and yours alone.

But I have a question...and I swear it is not a smart *** question! I know, coming from me, that is hard to believe

What if the entire world just decided to stop eating meat...all at once...something of a "flashforward" experience...

What would happen with all the animals?...wouldn't they reproduce and multiply...and take over? Who would watch or take care of them if we had no need for them? Wouldn't we just kill them? If we protected them wouldn't we just feed them our food vegetables? Wouldn't we need a whole lot more vegetables than we have know? What about the drought areas that are no longer producing veggies?

Just wondering....

For me it's about balance and being good stewards...

how do we get back to that...or did we ever have it?

I don't think one could claim that the ecological effects of everyone all at once quitting eating meat, after millenia of domesticating / raising them, is evidence that we're meant to do as we do. The system is already drastically altered. I think speculating on what would happen if everyone quit all at once accomplishes zero, nada, nothing but getting people riled up over something nonsensical.

Gary, we will never enter magically into the Star Trek world I don't see the world stop eating meat entirely. What I imagine if we cut back drastically, then the production of livestock would stop drastically, so the unnatural mass production would lessen the amount of animals naturally. Then I envision, we'd go back to a more natural state where those that did still farm animals would do so in a small fashion where the animals were better able to live on the land rather than us needing to grow large amounts of crops to support them (as we do now).

Accomplishes nothing?...It got you excited didn't it?

I was just wondering...that's all