Hi all,

Am feeling chatty and sociable today while I'm stuck at home purging accumulated junk from closets and drawers getting ready for my mom's visit. I bought these beautiful boxes which will house sentimental-yet-unused items and have so far gotten rid of three trash bags full of Lord knows what. One more dresser to go, taking a coffee break now. But I digress.

What's up with these ridiculous sizes? Sure, they make me feel great -- hence the term -- but what do people who are smaller/thinner/shorter than me wear? And where do they shop? According to places like Banana Republic, Gap, Zara, etc., I'm either a size 0 or a size 2 and always an XS. These sizes fit me perfectly. Which is perplexing quite frankly because there are many, many, many women out there (especially here in NYC where everyone is obssessed) who are significantly smaller.

My question is, do they have tailors on retainer? Do they shop at the juniors' department? Or do they buy things and immediately wash and dry them in super high heat to shrink them? I realize that it's different from item to item and from store to store (at H & M I'm sometimes a 12, so go figure) but the stores I mentioned cater to the masses to what gives?

Hope you're all having a great weekend!

There are several options. Some places have size 00 (Abercrombie, etc.). There's the kids and juniors departments for some things. When that won't do, some of the more high-end stores and boutiques have smaller garments. Otherwise you just have to shrink or tailor or just accept that your clothes are going to be at least a bit baggy.

Where I live, in most normal stores, size 4 is about the lowest (very occasionally size 2). You can find 0 or 2 equivalent at H&M, Fussl, and New Yorker, and if you need anything smaller, you best hit the girls/juniors, a mail catalogue or get your stuff altered.

I was wondering the same thing...I shop mainly at Ann Taylor and Banana Republic and almost always wear a 4 or a 6 in pants, a small or medium in sweaters and an XS in stretchy jersey dresses. Now, I buy a few things at Brooks Brothers and find I wear more of a large or medium in their sweaters and the last time i tried on pants, the size 6 petite pants didn't even zip on me! Quite a difference from wearing loose 4's from Banana...

I think some of it is just the designer doing vanity sizing...so there are probably other stores that don't do it as much (like BBs), perhaps store brands/juniors departments might have more of a smaller selection.

When I was in college, I got down to 110 pounds and tried on a size 0 skirt from GAP that literally fell right off me onto the floor. It was about then that I decided maybe I was getting a bit too small...If I can't shop at my normal stores there is no way I am buying work clothes in the juniors section (I'm 31!) I'll order everything from Asia or Europe where people are smaller. I have some things from Boden in the UK and I wear an 8 there...and they now use american sizing, so the 8 in actually an american 8.

Wildflower: I know what you mean on the work clothes. A few years ago, I could pull that off in the juniors' section of some stores. I don't know about in America, though, but here... New Yorker or C&A juniors will not cut it for adult dressy.

Even here in Europe the equivalent of size 2 or 4 is mostly what you're going to find in the mainstream(occasionally some XS and S things really do run small). I'm at the point now that when I try on stuff, I know that the smallest thing isn't really going to fit the best, and I either deal with it fitting a little big or get my friend Sonia to alter it. There's a couple boutiques I can look into when I'm ready to start shelling out dough, or I can order online when I'm ready to shell out €70 for a pair of jeans. For casual stuff I'll try to find the least-trashy teen stuff I can find, in the meantime. I guess Europeans are getting bigger, too! :P

ETA: Sometimes the petites stuff works, depending on how a person is built. Normally petites stuff ends up looking awkward on me, but I managed it with a couple of garments.

Oh wow. I can not fathom the fact that I am part of a thread where things are too large! LOL! I've always been at the other end where I couldn't go into a normal store because everything was too small.

I've wondered this especially with bras. My band size is, and has been, a 32 for quite some time now. The stores don't sell below a 34. And I am not small! (32 G to be exact) So where do all those tiny chested girls find bras? I think that's why they say 90% of us are wearing ill fitting bras. They don't make them to fit us!

And yes, I'm now wearing some size 4's and wondering how the heck that's possible. I don't think I'll ever be to a point where all the clothes in any one store are too large for me, but I have definitely had that thought.

Oh wait! Yes I am! I just purchased some workout clothes from Target and the smalls are too big! There's no way! These are the stretchy type pants that are usually pretty skin tight and the smalls are actually baggy on me. I could have tried the XS I suppose, but my brain just couldn't wrap itself around the S let alone an XS. So where do these tiny gym going people purchase workout gear? Not target! (And I don't want high end clothes to sweat in.

Ah, another mystery! I'm right there with you sister. Would you believe me if I told you I have never successfully purchased a bra for myself? I'm not even sure what size I am, even though I've gotten measured at Victoria's Secret a few times and every time it's different. 32A, 34C, 32B....I've always thought I was a 34B...at 155 lbs, and at 122lbs! It's a wonder. Every bra I've had my mom has bought for me (sssshhhh, I know, I'm 35!) but I swear she just looks at one and says "this will fit her" and sure enough it does. She has the eye. Me, not at all. Even if I try them on at the store I can't get it right! Sigh.

I wonder this, too, Eliana. I'm a 34 and I still have a decent amount of weight to lose (20 to my original goal, but probably another 40 when I'm done for real)- it is not outside the realm of possibility that I'll need a size smaller than a 32, which seems to be impossible to find, especially in large up size (I'm also a G, though that depends on the brand and if they have double or triple cup sizes). I don't know what I'm going to be able to wear at goal. Anyhow, I think the answer lies in the fact that most women don't where the right bra size - they find whatever works best that the store carries, but it isn't necessarily their true size.

There are definitely stores that carry really small sizes -- Urban Outfitters, H&M, American Apparel. As a college girl with lots of tiny, tiny friends, I can attest to the ease of finding clothes in their sizes -- in the right, 'trendy' places. Apparently Gap/BR/ON (the same company, after all) has a different view of sizing -- I am a M on top nearly everywhere and an XS there too! It's absurd.

Vanity sizing is a strange thing, I wish it was all streamlined so I wouldn't have to take 4 sizes into the dressing room with me!

I have known alot of thin women who have their clothes tailored for them, I know that is fairly common especially in places like New York. I live in Vietnam and an looking for a tailor here because everything is so small! I'm a US size 4-6 and can't find pants here to fit met!

On bra sizes: I got fitted for the fist time ever when I was looking for a strapless bra for my wedding dress this past summer. I was a 32C. I always thought I was a 34B my whole life. I needed new bras, so I planned to get several new ones in my right size. I looked everywhere for 32Cs and had a hard time finding any, let alone in the styles I wanted. Instead I ended up with about 4 new 34Bs!

If you notice, there is a pattern here.

If you buy mass market low cost apparel, yes, you'd take a smaller size. However, buying pricier bridge and designer apparel, you need a larger size.

Also, keep in mind that "designer" is relative. Each designer has different divisions that cater to different consumer profiles. For example, Ralph Lauren purple label is the priciest and cannot be compared to the RL tees you find at outlet malls. Those tees are a separate division with separate sizing and a different customer who wants the cachet of RL across their chests.

Mass market low cost apparel is sized more generously because the average customer of that market is larger sized.

Now, if there were such a thing as vanity sizing, then you would expect the reverse to be true. The pricier lines would be more generously sized but it is the exact opposite.

Sizes have no meaning as consumers think of them. A size number could just as easily be represented by a symbol like # or whatever.

A size Medium (or 8/10) for a manufacturer, represents the dimensions of their most AVERAGE customer. That's it. That's why a medium from one manufacturer to another can vary so much.

The size medium (or 8/10) is a reference used to calculate the amount of fabric that needs to be purchased to produce the line. I would leave a link that proves this but it might be removed. The article is called "The myth of vanity sizing" (via fashion-incubatorDOTcom) and there's about 16 others in the series that explain this whole thing.

If it were easy to explain and reduce to a soundbite, I'd do it. "Vanity sizing" is extremely complex, not what people think and if it were so easy to explain, we wouldn't be having this conversation because everyone would understand it.

Btw, I'm a "pattern maker". The person in charge of implementing sizing ("grading") at the factory. You don't hear about us because we're not famous or big names but engineering is our job. I've been working in the apparel industry for nearly 30 years. Don't get me wrong, we're not in charge of determining what the sizes should be (the designer is supposed to do that), we're in charge of implementing it and advising if it's really out of whack (as it can sometimes be). Sometimes designers don't listen. I know one designer in Chicago who can't weigh an ounce under 180lbs and she thinks she's a size 6. She really and truly believes this. She's not trying to flatter anyone's vanity. She's delusional. Garment makers are no less prone to delusions than the average person .

I read your blog post here: http://www.fashion-incubator.com/arc...vanity_sizing/
and it actually made a lot of sense!

A medium at the the discount store I like runs bigger than a medium at the Italian boutique I like. The average customer at the discount store is bigger, so naturally the store would cater to the majority. At the boutique, the average customer probably has more money -- and that's correllated with being slimmer, which the majority of the customers there are.

So, with the example of Old Navy, which we talked about upthread... it makes sense that their clothing sizes would tend to run really big, because they're affordable and looking for volume, and since they sell to about everybody, they're going to put their medium size the size of the average American, and then go from there... but medium would be different for ON if they catered to a different demographic.

I get it and it makes sense. Why make manufacturers cater to a particular size standard that doesn't represent a large portion of their demographic?

Really enlightening post... now I'm curious and want to know more.