Hi Believe-

Abstinence is the action of refraining from compulsive overeating and from foods that cause trouble, such as binge and trigger foods. A lot of people in OA have food plans/a plan of eating and OA suggests certain ones in the pamphlet Dignity of Choice. Some members see a dietitian/nutritionist and I am seeing one in a few weeks to help with the food plan and guidance. It's recommended that OA members have sponsors who are members that have a lot of recovery and have a lot of experience with overeating. I am currently working on having a healthier relationship with food, not overeating or under eating. I used to binge but I don't bring a lot of the unhealthy foods home, sometimes I do eat them outside which isn't good, I want to work on that.

Take care. OA has a website too: http://www.oa.org

HI to everyone else, I hope that others here are doing well!

Amy

I have a prn (Geodon) that takes a bit of the edge off. Had another very rough day: pain started around 10:30 AM and as of now, 8:30 PM, it has not yet stopped. I'm sorry to be such a lousy person on this thread. I see my shrink in person on Wednesday.

Hugs to you, Fiona. I hope that you have a better rest of the night. You're NOT a lousy person!

Amy

Hello again!
 

Amy: Thank you for the explanation of abstinence. It really helps me understand it better. I think I would try to be too all or nothing if I attempted "abstinence." Maybe that is just me misunderstanding the whole concept, though. My biggest problem is doing away with the binge and trigger foods. I do try to avoid them, but they are in the house sometimes for other family members. I know I should eliminate having them in my house at all, but I want to learn to deal with the temptation of them being here since that is the reality for our household long-term. I have been doing much better lately avoiding my trigger foods. I just feel more motivated at the moment, which is something you just can't force, so I am thankful for the extra motivation for now. I hope and pray that it lasts!

saraphin: Thank you for the conversion formula from metric weight to pounds. That always confuses me, so it is good to know the conversion. It is actually pretty simple............. IF I have a calculator around! :lol:

Fi: I sure hope and pray that by the time you read this post, your pain has subsided. It just sounds so agonizing and I wish there was some way to get you relief. Please discuss this with your doctor at your face to face appointment on Wednesday. You have GOT to get some help for the physical pain you are experiencing!!! (I know that is often easier said than done, but I am really worried about you.) Be persistent and specific about your needs. Does he know how much pain you are in? Listen here now missy, YOU ARE NOT A "LOUSY PERSON"...... on this thread or anywhere else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is just a negative thought from the big bad devil :devil: trying to get you to give up!!! Don't pay any bit of attention to those negative thoughts!!! That is called "stinkin' thinking" and you need to ignore it!!! You are a worthwhile person, and you have already helped me in many ways in my weight loss journey by what you have shared in this group! You matter and your contribution to this group matters. I named it Ups & Downs for the very reason that I want members to feel free to express how they are really feeling, rather than feeling like you have to always post positives. Any of us who are overweight know very well about all of the downs that we experience. Please keep posting and don't worry how often you are down. We are here to help each other right where each of us is NOW in the journey! :hug: Please hang in there and discuss all of your feelings and pains with your shrink on Wednesday! He has to know how much you are suffering in order to adequately help you. Please also keep in close touch with us during this difficult time. I think it will help! BIG HUGS to you!!! :hug: :hug: :hug:

Hello :wave: to VermontMom, shr1nk1ngme, lilturtle, CDubsGotGoats, and everyone else!!! Please post when you can with an update about yourselves. I am listening and I care.

P.s.
 

BTW, Fi (and anyone else who wants to), you can call me Kathleen. ;)

Hey everyone, sorry I have been off line! We have quite a bit of snow and cold, and my plate has been very full taking care of all the animals. Been eating ok, but have been feeling pretty down over the last week. Not a lot to report on right now, but I should have some time to really catch up with everyone tonight.

:hugs:

Kathleen— Thanks so much for your name, and for all the suppor!

I'm hanging in here after a very rough weekend, depression-wise. I got in touch with my shrink, and we both agree that going off the Effexor wasn't a good idea, so back up some more on that med and hoping for the best. I had a small cup of my husband's muesli to help me sleep last night, but that doesn't count as emotional/binge-type eating. He's being really sweet to me. Right now he's gone out grocery shopping for me since I needed seltzer and cream (for my coffee) and the kind of turkey lunch meat I like. I'm really tired from all the depression pain. Last night he made me an omelet with smoked salmon and onions—almost as good as a bagel.

Thanks everyone else for all the support, too. I'm just too tired to write anymore today. Hang in there, Chelsea!

Fi - so sorry you have had a tough, painful time!! :hug: and NO LOUSY PERSON words from you, missy :D

Kathleen - your weekend sounded great and you are too kewl to take a ride on the mechanical bull :devil: it's not that easy, is it! :rofl:

cDubs - what kind of animals do you have? (goats I assume?)

Hi saraphin, seabiscuit, and others! :wave: :hug:

I'm so glad that I haven't had a long depressive day in a long time. and I'm thinking back to last week, when I let myself get bothered by something minor and went back to bed but then made myself get up and then had the great shopping experience.

I've had a minor problem with a co-worker, she thinks that I should give some of my hours to her, and has vehemently talked to others about it, this is not a rational request and she is not always rational herself, sometimes she just ups and quits, then comes back; but the boss condones this so it just goes on. Anyway, I was dreading some days working with her, knowing that she is resenting me, especially that she is tiny and cute :rolleyes: well for heaven's sake she is also 21, I just can't let myself compare my body to a 21 yr. old! And her up and down behavior is just so upsetting to the workplace. You just don't know 'who' she will be that day. She obviously needs help.

I guess this girl is my only worry for now (besides my constant worrying about my appearance and weight) so I am pretty lucky I guess.

have a good night :hug:

Quick Check-in!
 

Hello Friends! Just a quick check in, since my dogs woke me in the middle of the night...... again! :yawn: I walked on the treadmill at the gym again today while my daughter worked out with the trainer. I walked 16 of my 40 minutes not holding on, and tonight I have the worst back pain. I assume it is because not holding on kicked in my core muscles that are....ahem.....very weak. I feel sore and fatigued all around my midsection and back. I work with the trainer in the morning and will get her opinion. Anyway, I bring this up because I imagine that the pain is similar to what Fi feels every afternoon with her physical pain from depression. It is agonizing for me right now. It makes me sad to imagine Fi feeling this way all the time. I so hope you can get some help with the pain at some point, Fi! I hated to hear that you had a very rough weekend, depression-wise. Some kind of relief just has to be in store for you soon! It sounds like your husband takes good care of you, too, which is wonderful! You deserve it! :hug:

Chelsea: I, too, am curious about what animals you take care of! Goats?!? I just love all animals, so I am very interested in hearing all about it. ;) I am sorry to hear that you have also been feeling down this past week. :( Hope things begin to look UP for you, soon!!! :angel:

Holly: Your image :rofl: is very accurate of me once that mechanical bull started to move! One big lunge to the side and off I went!!! :rofl: At least I lasted long enough to get a hilarious photo out of it. :D Your coworker sounds very immature and yes, like she needs some help. Sorry you have to put up with that crap! It must be difficult to maintain good spirits at work in her presence. Sounds like you are handling things pretty well, though. Just do your best to ignore her tantrums :tantrum: and petty behavior. Why in the world does she feel entitled to your hours anyhow?!? That is just weird! And the boss condoning such behavior as her ranting to others about it and quitting and coming back is just enabling and crazy! THAT would drive me insane!!! :crazy: Good luck working everything out! Glad you feel comfortable enough to post about it. I hope venting here helps just a little. :hug:

Well, I must get back to bed! Hope everyone else is okay! Please post when you can with an update! :wave:

good morning, and just needed to note, Kathleen you are incredibly empathetic and supportive; and are able to show those feelings through wonderful writing :carrot: It is one thing to be so caring for people, and another gift to expressively put into words what you want; and you do both :) I do have people who care tons about me, but I don't always get what I feel is proper attention to my current rants :devil: I thank you so much for providing that to me!!

Yes my boss totally enables that behavior, because he doesn't want to have to hire someone else :?: Like I said, if she is my biggest worry right now, I'm on Easy Street.

LOL at your description on the bull! and congrats on doing part of your treadmill work without holding on..but real sorry about the pain! can it be relieved with ibuprofen or anything? Hope the trainer can tell you how long to rest/recover..because I will totally encourage you to continue on with that!! I do know having core strength is vital for everyday functional strength. I will be your cheerleader :cheer2:

Hello to everyone else :wave: hope everyone has a great day :) I am especially psyched because today is my Friday, I have Wed. and Thursdays off so I just need to 'get through' today. take care! (and watch out for ice, i slipped and fell on my side yesterday, at work, yes, that same boss does not sand the driveway)

*edit to add - I can slightly explain the co-worker feeling entitled to my hours...I work at this job from early November through late April, then I go to a different job, early May through October (have been doing this for over 10 years). This young girl was hired to fill in for me, knowing that I do return!! but she decided she didn't like those rules :rofl:

Kathleen— I don't know if this will help you on the treadmill or not, gal, but I used to get lower back pain from walking until I learned a couple of tips: One is to contract your abdominals as you walk, continuously, because they will help support your spine so your back doesn't have to do all the work; and the other is to bend way forward, from the ankles, as you walk, so that your hips are carrying your upper body weight instead of it rocking back onto your lower spine. If you do both of those of those things, you should notice quickly that your back is less stressed. There's a really good book called Walk Yourself Well that I learned those and other tips from.

Hi! Haven't checked in for a few days. My real name is Trish by the way. I am trying to get back on track with my diet. At first i just watched my calories, then I did Atkins. I hated Atkins. Now I am just trying to watch my calories again and pay attention to carbs. I've been back on my meds for a week now so there is some progress there. I have been having insurance problems getting outpatient treatment. It is frustrating. I need therapy to deal with some of my issues (including my weight and eating). I'm trying to hang in there. It has been a bit of a roller coaster the last couple weeks.

Hello!
 

Hello Support Buddies!

Holly: Thank you for your generous compliments. :o Empathy and writing about my feelings are two of my stronger suits, learned from experience. I appreciate your sentiments. ;) My pain was relieved some with over-the-counter meds. Then I got a massage today (weekly gift from hubby) and it really helped! Thank God! I was really feeling it from engaging those obviously weak back muscles! I will continue with working up on my times NOT holding on while walking on the treadmill, but my masseuse recommended working up a little slower than I have been, which makes better sense. That gives me little goals to aim for, which will keep my treadmill time interesting and fresh. Enjoy your Wednesday and Thursday off!!! :)

Fi: Thank you for the awesome tips for me while working on NOT holding on during some of my treadmill time! Makes sense and I will definitely try your ideas out next time I walk, along with working my times up more gradually. That should do the trick! ;) I love that you love self-help books as much as I do!!! :D I hope your Effexor is beginning to make a difference and that some of your pain is subsiding. I think about you now in the afternoons, and wish you well. Please let us know how your appointment with your shrink goes on Wednesday! Hoping and praying for some relief for you!

Trish: Happy to hear that you are back on your meds. Thanks for checking in! I hope that you will be able to get the outpatient treatment/therapy that you need. As you know, it is so important to your mental and overall health. I hate dealing with insurance companies! Wishing you the best and sending a BIG HUG!!! :hug:

:wave: Hello to everyone else! Please post an update when you can. Thanks!

hi friends,

i am sorry to read so many stories of pain ,but by far, fiona, yours is the worst i think. what is depression pain, love? is it headaches? :(:(:(

i have severe nerve pain and i take methadone, lyrica and cymbalta - that also is for anxiety. i am stable atm. :):):)

i use mind control for my nerve pain because there is not a really good solution. i go THROUGH the pain and ignore it. "it's only pain" i tell myself. :o:o:o

i must get on my dreamill now actually, even though my foot hurts so much. it's ok. i just walk THROUGH it and i'm glad when i finish! :p:p:p

my weight has plateaued AGAIN (4th time in 14.5 kilo's) for TWO WEEKS. i'm stuck at 85.4 kilo's. :dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

that's 187.88 pounds. you know there are calculators on you computer…just google one. unless you want me to convert for you. i don't mind really. especially since it's usually the SAME. aaaaarrrrgggghhhh. :^::^::^:

bfn, saraphin xxx

Well now I'm confused. I was extremely depressed this afternoon and also craving carbohydrates—not cookies, just carbos—like crazy. So I broke down and had two generous helpings of my husband's muesli (mostly oats w/ a few raisins and a bit of added sugar). Then I took a nap and woke up... all better! No depression! The transformation was amazing!

So I started reading online about the whole neurotransmitter issue with people who are on the strict Atkins very low carb diet. 'Turns out that some people—especially women, especially people with a history of mood disorders, especially people prone to getting really low in the afternoon—in other words, me—are prone to getting depressed on Atkins. Not everyone, just a few people who are more "carbohydrate dependent."

So it's possible that the past 19 days of no binge (i.e., carbo-loading) behavior on my part may have set me up for this depression.

Or not. It may just be that the adjustment in my medications finally kicked in.

I'm quite tempted to add back in about 50 grams of carbs, around noon each day. What do y'all think? Will I still lose weight?

Hello all..i found this site looking for help to lose weight. I am a fat vegetarian with bipolar and a recovered alcoholic. I quit drinking over 7 yrs ago and learned i had been self medicating for years. Since then my bipolar has progressed to chronic severe depression and some psychosis...yippie. and now i am 100 lbs overweight which greatly effects my mental and physical health.

I look forward to this journey. Today i am emotionally stable and hope to find support and motivation through following Your journeys. Many blessings!

You've come to the right place, Becca, if you're looking for support on your weight loss journey and if you have issues with ups & downs in your mood. Wecome on board! Your avatar is beautiful...

Fiona...that is interesting about carbs and depression. I'm going to look into that more. I didn't do well on Atkins. I'm back to jut watching my calories. I want to start eating smaller meals/snacks spread out throughout the day instead of one big meal and a late night snack.

I'm so busy trying to catch up on the the things that I had to let slide during my depression, I don't have time for a long posting, but I just wanted to say: Wow! Adding in one muesli meal at noon has completely dissipated my depression pain, and I feel like a whole new woman. 'Turns out there are a lot of issues involved in the effect of insulin on serotonin in the brain, but I won't go into all that. But I do really appreciate all the support and concern from you folks here on Ups & Downs: they have been a comfort during my recent dark hours.

Trish— (Thanks for your name: I love the name Trish!) That's interesting that you didn't do well on Atkins. I felt like I was doing well physically, but obviously my emotional state really cratered, and I couldn't figure out why I kept craving carbos—not sweets actually, but things like whole wheat, oats, bran. My psychiatrist, whom I saw today, is well-versed in principles of Chinese medicine, and after hearing my detailed description of my depression pain (which is mostly in my chest), he said an earth element food, such as complex carbs, would be the suggested remedy. Anyway, Trish, what you say about dividing your daily allotment into several small meals makes a lot of sense. And CONGRATULATIONS on your 46 lb. loss so far! That's a lot of weight you're not havin' to carry around anymore! =smile=

hi everyone :hug::hug::hug:

well well so much to take in. carb-loading? i think i've been doing some of that and i do agree there must be some sort of relationship because i get anxious and my DH says "have you eaten anything?" he knows me. when i eat, i feel better. not necessarily carb's though because i have avoided all carb's (hard to believe) for 13 weeks! :o:o:o

fiona...i'm relieved you feel better now. i don't know what to suggest here. i think do what your WHOLE body tells you. you'll have to decide for yourself. :dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

i just changed phases with my diet program and i'm JUST on the RED GRAPH LINE to reach my goal weight by the date i set (may 22). :):):)

still no carb's though. but i'm going to start eating 1 small fruit a day. after NO fruit for 13 weeks - that will be something! also i used to eat 5 fruits a day before when i was enormous so um…WRONG. :(:(:(

becca - welcome :hug:

thanx kathleen and trish, for your names! :hug: :hug:

trish - do hang in there…we are your friends here :hug:

hi holly, cdubs :hug:

look! i had a whoosh! :carrot::carrot::carrot:

http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt...fgH/weight.png

Hello Everyone!
 

Wow, it's great to see so much action on this thread today! Thanks to those who posted. I had a rotten day, but I finally have a chance to just sit down and relax a bit, so it just got better! ;) The day started well. Hubby invited me to meet him for breakfast, which was nice. Afterward, I went shopping for workout pants and jeans. BIG MISTAKE!!! After trying on a bunch of jeans, I was thoroughly disgusted and depressed about the condition of my body. :o Old familiar sizes didn't fit anymore, so I am obviously getting bigger. :cry: I had been feeling good about working out consistently recently and getting started with a trainer. I am not good at waiting to see results. I want instant gratification. So when I found out my old size didn't fit, I could have sobbed right there in the store. The negative thoughts began attacking my mind, and I fought like crazy (in my mind) to push them away. I kept thinking to myself, "You are taking steps to make things better. Keep it up and it will pay off." But the negatives just flooded into my consciousness and I felt like.......... I'll just say it............. a fat pig. :cry: I am trying very hard to treat myself better and I know that my inner child doesn't like to be called names like "fat" or "pig" so ~ at the same time ~ I felt ashamed for thinking that. Shame on top of depression = not a good combination. Anyway, I did manage to find some bigger pants that will work for now, so at least the shopping trip was productive. Next, I went to a sporting good store to look for XL workout pants that weren't too long, since I am short. I had to settle for capris, which are almost full-length on me, so that will have to do, but I barely fit into XL sweat pants. They didn't even carry "women's" (above XL) athletic tops. I asked the lady, "Aren't big women like me the ones who really need workout clothes?!? Why don't they make big workout clothes???" She said that she gets asked that at least once a day. Anyway, I will probably look online for some athletic shirts that might fit me. Then, I went home and ate a quick healthy lunch, but felt even bigger. I had to go to my dermatologist for an annual check-up (because I've had basal cell carcinomas). I didn't want ANYONE looking at my huge body, so I thought about cancelling the appointment. Well, thank God I didn't, because I had a small, suspicious looking red spot, which he scraped off to biopsy and then froze the area. He said it looks like a superficial basal cell (precancerous) carcinoma. If it is only precancerous, as he suspects, I won't need to do anything else. If it comes back as cancerous, he will treat things differently (probably cut more out and get another biopsy). I am not too worried about it, but it is just one more damn thing to think about and my mind is already fried! :( Then, I had two more places to be after picking my daughter up from school...... and finally, I am home. Just trying to process the day and still keep from feeling defeated in the weight category. I am really struggling to let the positive thoughts drown out all of the negative ones that still threaten to bombard me now. :dizzy:

rocketbecca: :welcome3: to our group Ups & Downs! So happy that you posted. I hope you will find support for your weight loss journey here. Congratulations on not drinking for over 7 years ~ one day at a time!!! That is so awesome!!! My brother is a recovering alcoholic with 23 years sobriety. I am so very proud of him. I hope you are proud of yourself! I am also diagnosed bipolar. Have only had one typical manic episode years ago, but I think that my mania is often exhibited in agitation and irritability. I went through a LONG period of depression years ago, too, after the death of one of our newborn twins and finding out our next child would be handicapped. After many years of therapy and several medications later, I am at a much better place in my life. I still struggle to function and be productive on a daily basis, though. My weight skyrocketed when I got on anti-psychotic meds, and I am still struggling to get the weight off. Somewhere in there, I became addicted to food, so that is a problem for me now as well. I currently have a lot on my plate, but I am determined to lose this daggone weight once and for all. I was thinking today that, rather than thinking about losing 75 pounds, I am going to approach this as losing 5 pounds 15 times. That feels a bit more doable to me, I think. Regardless, I am NOT giving up on myself. Today was a setback/relapse for me in my thinking, but I am working on my thinking tonight. I will get back in the swing of things soon. I also plan to walk on the treadmill after I write here, so that should help me to get refocused.

Can you tell us a little more about HOW your weight has affected your mental and physical health. I feel the same, so I am just curious about your perspective. You don't have to answer that if you aren't comfortable with it. No pressure intended at all! Just interested in your story! ;) Again, thank you for posting. I look forward to getting to know you better! :hug:

Trish (lilturtle): I think it is a great idea for you to focus on eating several smaller meals/healthy snacks throughout the day, rather than one big meal and a late-night snack. It will be good for your metabolism to know that food can be counted on, so that it won't go into starvation mode. Let us know how that goes for you. I sure wish you the best! Any luck with the insurance company for outpatient therapy yet? I think that is critical for you, too, so be persistent! ;)

Fi (Fiona W): Wow, what a breakthrough you have had about depriving your body of carbs. So interesting! I am so happy that you may have realized what was causing you so much pain, so that you can avoid it in the future. I say TRY the 50 grams of carbs around noon each day and see how it affects your weight, if that is what you are inclined to do. You can always decrease the amount of carbs or stop if you find it makes your weight go up. Maybe you just need that "in the meantime" while the Effexor kicks back in. Trial and error, I say! You know you best, though, so follow your gut and/or ask your doctor. How did your shrink appointment go today?

saraphin: I am so sorry to hear about your severe nerve pain. That sounds awful! :( Better for your weight to plateau than go up, as mine keeps doing. You will get back to losing weight when your body is ready. We can't force these things, unfortunately! You are so strong to just force yourself THROUGH the nerve pain and the foot pain on the treadmill. That is very difficult to do. I wish you could get relief!!! Do you think you have fibromyalgia? My mother-in-law had it and my sister-in-law has it, so I know that it causes a lot of pain. I am just curious if that is what you might have, too. :?: I am not trying to scare you; just trying to help. I hate the thought of you just having to ENDURE the pain! :( Do the meds you are on help at all?

Hoping to hear from Chelsea (CDubGotGoats), Holly (VermontMom), and shr1nk1ngme soon! How are you ladies?

Kathleen— The words "fat pig" should go into the same garbage can as "lousy person": never to be used again!! Never! =smile=

Kathleen - so sorry about the crummy shopping experience!! we all have gone through that I guess, it is sucky :( and those damn self-defeating thoughts!! I'm glad that you consciously tried very very hard to knock those thoughts out, during the crisis. and OMG at the test results, but so glad you are keeping on top of it!

Fi - very wonderful that you made that carb-related discovery , to help you so much!

Trish - Hi :wave

sapaphin - YAY to your whoosh!! :cheer2:

welcome to rocketbecca!

I feel pretty good, however I did spend most of the morning yesterday in bed; not particularly sad or anything, just no ambition to get up! (geez I did the same thing last week too) Today is my second day off of the week so I do need to get things done today that i put off yesterday. And I stripped the bed as soon as I got up, for laundry, so i would not be tempted to fall back into bed! haha tricking myself! :devil:
:hug: to all

Hi everyone!! I'm doing pretty good mood wise (maybe getting a lil hypomanic). The inurance company is still giving me problems for treatment. I am not doing good on my eating small meals yet today. I've been up for a little over an hour and I haven't eaten yet. I thought I would get some tasks done first but I am really hungry. I might go grab an apple here in a minute. Starting in the new year I am going to add exercise to my routine by going to the pool and walking.

Hi Everyone!

Its late, but WELCOME Saraphin and Becca!

Fi- I am glad to hear that you are starting to feel better in the afternoons! I also hide in the dark. Something you may consider for an afternoon pick up is a light box. They come in different price ranges, and sometimes insurance will help cover the cost. They are especially helpful through the winter when we are not getting enough sunlight; Do you take a vitamin D supplement? My new doctor also recommended incorporating flax into my daily diet, he said it is also very helpful for depression. You have been so helpful and encouraging to me! All of the information that you have provided have helped me to change the way that I have been thinking about food, and your collages have inspired me to start working on art projects again!! It has been YEARS since I have been motivated to art. I hope that your afternoon snack and your med adjustment continue to help you feel better, and remember any time you feel lousy about yourself that we all feel GREAT about you! Always thinking good thoughts for you.

Kathleen - How great that you got to get out of the house and have some personal time with your hubby :) We don't have kids but we do have a room mate right now, and it is amazing how nice it feels to have some time just for the two of us. How great that you have been able to do more of your treadmill work without holding on!! That is great progress! Shopping is so hard, I always avoid it as much as possible for the same reason. BUT I am so impressed that you are still able to keep your perspective from becoming immersed in the "stinkin thinkin" (that is one of my favorite phrases) and that you are able to remember that it is a process that will take time. Another thing to keep in mind is that as your muscle develops with exercise, you may gain weight before you lose some. But it is good, your body is just becoming more able to support itself, which will in the long run make it easier for you to lose the weight. Keep the good thoughts!!

Holly - Your garden sounds wonderful! I am so excited to put in my garden in the spring. I am sorry about your co-worker, she sounds like a brat. Way to keep a good perspective :)

Trish - I am so happy to hear that you are thinking of eating smaller meals more often instead of just one big meal. Smaller meals will also help to shrink your stomach so that you will feel full and satisfied more easily. Something that is really important when trying to eat less overall is breakfast!! If you eat a little oatmeal(or whole wheat toast, some kind of *complex* carb) and a protein, then you will probably feel better until lunch, and won't feel like eating so much later in the day either. You are still in my thoughts, I hope something works out with your insurance soon.

Overall I have been doing ok, but have been feeling some anxiety pains in my chest and a little pre-panic feeling behind my eyes, but they haven't been to severe. It has been giving me really terrible acid reflux though, which I haven't had in a while. My upset stomach has been encouraging eating, which is not good, but it is also not working to stop the heartburn and sick feeling any more so I have kind of stopped wanting to eat for the most part. I am kind of torn about it, because the celexa really helped my anxiety but it also caused a lot of weight gain and also destroyed my intimate life with my partner. I don't want to increase my dosage again since it stopped treating my depression a long time ago, and I like my new med better. I think I will try prilosec again and see if it helps my stomach out. The anxiety I will try to deal with by getting back into a meditation and breathing routine that worked fairly well before. If it continues to increase I guess I will talk to my dr. about finding a different med.

In other news, my nerve problems are carpal tunnel that recently has been much more painful with full hand numbness sometimes going up to my shoulders, and waking multiple times a night, and also at least one pinched nerve in my back that come from a long ago injury. Occasionally I have sciatic pain from when I was hit by a car, but not as often now. It takes something pretty physically stressful to set that off.
Holly, Kathleen - I raise goats, meat rabbits, and geese and in the spring will be bringing home some chickens and two kinds of ducks, one for meat and one for eggs. I also have plans to get a sheep when some pasture space opens up at my neighbors in a few years. We also have two dogs(a pyrenees mix, and a heeler mutt) and two wonderful kitties, and one scorpion. I share a garden with my neighbor, and am learning to butcher my own meat(my animals are well cared for and treated humanely, and I love each and every one of them!), grow and preserve my own food, make my own soap(everyone can have some when I get it down, if you like) and cheese, and am really excited to sustain myself and my family with minimal outside purchases. As with weight loss, it is a process and will take time but every step is a little closer.

Sorry for the rant :) I really feel blessed and joyful about the life that I get to live right now, and in spite of my depression sneaking in and weighing me down occasionally.

Good, strong, thoughts to everyone!

great reading
 

thank you for your posts everyone, i have had a lovely time here, with you, and coffee. cdubs what a marvellous life you have! i too love animals and i would have a lot more if DH would let me LOL

already we have 3 dogs and a cat who lives in the garden shed. i'm no good with biurds. we can't have anything else because the dogs are so protective of me, well, you see, they justy about kill anything that tries to come into our yard! LOL. :carrot::carrot::carrot:

we have a lovely garden and io'm not that well, so DH pays for a cleaner each week for me as it is. i have to do NOTHING> what a life eh? :hug::hug::hug:

DH said all he wants is a 'healthy wife' so all i have to concentrate on is getting better. nice huh? :):):)

so i losing weight and DH is thrilled along with me.

except today. grr . my scales are the problem. grr. :mad::mad::mad:

thewy put me BACK UP TO WHERE I HAVE BEEN FOR 2 WEEKS> grrr. grrr. :devil::devil::devil:

not happy. :mad::mad::mad:

thasnk you for your kindness, tyhough, people. i get so much from reading about your lives anfd from sharing my life. thanx again.

who was it that recommended swap-bot for me? was it someone from here? i forget and i so want to THANK them for my new hobby. it's brilliant.

BFNnn:hug::hug:

Today was a better day. Started with an 8:30 am workout with my trainer. Then did a bunch of errands, went to hubby's office Christmas luncheon, and then out with friends tonight to celebrate our birthdays. Busy but fun day! I am exhausted right now, but I just wanted to be sure to check in before I go to sleep! Tomorrow we are headed to Cleveland to get my daughter fitted for new AFO (leg) braces, so we will be gone most of the day. I will check in tomorrow evening. Until then, wishing everyone well and waving hello! :wave:

I had a surprising moment in the Co-op grocery store today: I was waiting for the office to approve my exchange of Familia muesli w/ sugar added for the kind with no sugar, and just as they handed my box to me, I realized that I had been standing right next to the basket of my favorite huge organic cookies, and hadn't even given them a glance. And I knew that's where they were always located, on the shelf in front of the office, because oh boy, I used to binge on those puppies: I used to buy like half the basket at once. I just can't believe it, how quickly my binge behavior has gone away...even with my adding the carbos to my diet, I only think of them as a daily serving of muesli, not anything else!

saraphin— Gosh, you're such a sweet woman: I really smile when I read your postings! Sorry to hear about your scale problems: that's why I only weigh myself once a month—I just can't take the effect it has on my mood any more often that that. Yes, that was me who recommended swap-bot to you...I'm so glad you're starting to swap! Before you know it, you'll be making crafty-type things, even artworks. There are so many welcoming swaps for beginners at any kind of project. But the mail itself is what makes it so much fun. =warm grin=

Chelsea— Thanks so much for your cheerful support, and I am thrilled to hear that my collages have inspired you to get back into making art! I look forward to your posting links to your work some day. That carpal tunnel stuff doesn't make it easy to use your hands, though: I know, because I have been there! I first got on the Internet back in the 1980s, and my very non-ergonomic computer setup meant I had bad carpal tunnel in both hands starting in 1990. I eventually got the height of my keyboard lowered and even bought a wonderful split keyboard, which helped a lot. But you know what finally solved the problem for me? I got the carpal-tunnel-release surgery done in 2000—the non-invasive kind where they go through a tiny incision in your wrist. I got my right hand done first, then my left, and I swear to you, I have had zero problems ever since, even after 10 years of nerve damage. And no scars whatsoever. I know it's a big step—I was scared myself—but you might want to think about it. Oh, and thanks so much for your tips about the light box and Vitamin D: I have a light like that, and it's even set up on a table, but I fell out of the habit of using it when I got my iPad. I also have some Vit. D that I'm not taking—duh! I do try to get in the sun when I can, but the DC area isn't big on sun in the winter. I'll go for the light box and the Vit. D starting tomorrow, and I'll read up on flax.

Trish— The trick with eating those small meals is to eat when you're just a little bit hungry, and then stop when you're just a little bit full. One book I read suggested that you learn to rate your hunger on a scale from 0 when you're neither hungry or full, to -1 when you're just barely feeling some hunger sensations, all the way down to -10 when you're extremely ravenous. And similarly you rate your fullness from +1 when you have just a teensy bit of fullness in your stomach, all the way up to +10 when you're absolutely stuffed to the gills. The book said you should sit down for a small meal, even just an apple, when you're at -2 level of hungry, and then stop eating when you're +2 level of full. I find that I tend to eat more from -3 to +3, but I'm still learning the technique. If you're only a little bit hungry, you'll be able to cut up the apple into slices and put them on a plate, and you'll find that it's easier to stop when you're just a little bit full that way. It takes some practice to learn how to stop and put the rest of the food away for later. Good luck!

Holly— I know what you mean about those days when you can't even lift a finger. If you work hard, gal, you may need that one day a week that's completely blotto. Thanks so much for all your kind supportive postings during my depression! Praise be to the Goddess that it was only a short one, and that I was able to listen to my body when it said, "Don't binge, just have a serving of complex carbs—right now, if not sooner!"

Kathleen— I don't know whether you've already found all the workout clothes you need, but I have an online recommendation for you: Junonia. They've been specializing in all kinds of different athletic and casual apparel for medium-sized to larger women for quite a few years now. I'm a satisfied customer! At least pick up the phone, call 'em, and have 'em send you a catalog. Say, I really appreciate your empathetic postings during my depression: they made a serious difference. As for my appointment with my shrink, well I already mentioned—to Trish, I think it was—the interesting bit: after hearing my description of my depression pain, which starts in my chest right under my breast bone, feels like hot coals, and eventually radiates out my arms & legs like a raging fire, my shrink said that according to Chinese medicine, the recommendation would be to add more complex carbohydrates to my diet. Amazing, huh, that my body said it wanted muesli?! I feel so fortunate to have a shrink who's versed in both Western and Eastern techniques. It's also possible, of course, that adding back the Effexor did the trick, but it happened so dramatically, and immediately, after that bowl of muesli, I'm convinced that the change in my diet was responsible.

Gosh, it's late...I need to go take my nightly stab (usually unsuccessful) at getting to sleep at a reasonable hour...see y'all later!

Wow i never expected anyone to notice my post. I try hard to be invisible. I dont wear colorful clothes. Ive given up on makeup and nice shoes. And i was such an outgoing girly girl. So yeah my weight has a major impact on my life and mental state.

Im going to be honest. I was one of those perfect skinny *****es throughout my 20s. I lost pregnancy weight quickly both times. And...i openly made fun of fat people. They disgusted me. I always thought they were just lazy. Why cant they put on some running shoes? Yeah i was mean.

I mention this because of my alcholism recovery. Lots of people dont understand that putting down the bottle requires more than just willpower..at least it did for me. So i think my weight problem is probably similar. And my bipolar / chronic depression is closely tied into all of it. Now i am the ugly lazy fat ***. I am that chick walking down the road that has "a long walk." I have come to hate looking in mirrors. I have one pair of pants and only a few shirts. I am embarrassed to go clothes shopping. An ugly person like me dpesnt deserve nice clothes..maybe when im pretty again..
This is the sort of crap that rolls around in my head all day every day. I am ashamed. And..that is how my weight and bipolar effect my life. Pls dont feel sry for me. I just hope that if anyone ever feels the same they can see that i too suffer and it is a disease poisoning our minds.

Becca— I'll respond to your posting in more detail later on, but right away I want to say: you deserve some new clothes, girl! You should get yourself at least one new outfit that you look fabulous in, because you are still a beautiful woman. Here's a list of places to go shopping. I personally really like Making It Big, but I'm a good bit older than you (I'm 58), so their stuff may be too conservative for you. A lot of folks on 3 Fat Chicks like Torrid. And be sure to check out We Love Your Peaches!

Why am I saying you should get yourself a new outfit or two? Because feeling good about yourself—self-acceptance and self-love—is an essential first step on your weight loss journey. Weight loss is something you will give as a gift to your body, because you love yourself.

We are here to support you in every positive way we can, Becca, during the ups & downs of your weight loss journey. We are not here to feel sorry for you: don't worry about that.

Gotta go... I'll say more later...

Becca- I have had a similar experience, and Fi's advice is GOLDEN! Once I bit the bullet and decided to buy new clothes that fit well and were cute, I felt SOO MUCH BETTER!!! No more awkward lumps or uncomfortable squished spots! Being comfortable and confident in my clothes really helped me feel better in my own skin.
If you know your size, shopping online is really great because there is no fitting room to squish into, no one is watching you. If you are not sure about your size, a lot of online shops have really good exchange policies as well, so if you find something you like, you get a chance to try it on and see how you feel in it.
Beauty is about your brains, your compassion and your choices, not about your size. You are definitely not alone, and you are a BEAUTIFUL woman.

Fi - Congrats on day 21, and BIG CONGRATULATIONS on your mental shift about those cookies! As a fellow cookie monster, that is a huge accomplishment and something to be so proud of! Yay!

Fiona thanks for the suggestion with the ratings. I am going to try it along with going back to keeping a food journal. I can write them both down that way.


Becca I am in recovery too. It was never a matter of willpower for me. I don't really follow a 12 step model but it is something I have to work at every day.

I am still not eating right. I did better yesterday. I ate three small meals sort of spaced out. Not exactly where I want to be. My dinner could have been a healthier choice. Today it is 1:45pm and I still haven't eaten anything. I am rushing to get stuff done and stressed about something. I guess tomorrow is a new day.

So are all of you working to lode weight / be more healthy / feel confident? I mean it all goes together but what are you working toward and how?

Great Support Here!
 

Becca: I love Fi's response to you and I wholeheartedly agree with her! It sounds like you have the same "stinkin' thinkin'" going on in your mind that I fight constantly. I have actually become much better at catching myself in the act of treating myself badly. Then, the next step is that I need to restate what I am thinking in a positive way. For example, when I was trying on clothes the other day and thought, "I have been working out a lot and I still look and feel like a fat pig." I immediately caught myself thinking in a way that does not serve me well (I know all too well from so much past experience), so I rephrased the thought in my head, "I am doing what I need to do now by working out consistently, so I am headed in the right direction. My hard work will pay off!" Except, I was being bombarded all at once with tons of negative thoughts, so I was literally sorting them out in my mind and rephrasing things to myself. This was all while I walked around Kohl's. I was in a zone and wondered if anyone could tell that I was having a mental spar with myself in my mind as I tried on athletic shoes and walked through the building. I just want to be "normal" sized again. It makes so much stuff so much easier, especially clothes shopping. I agree with Fiona that YOU DESERVE some nice clothes that fit you well....... no matter what size you are!!! I hope you will consider buying at least one or two new outfits from one or more of those places Fi listed. It would make you feel so much more comfortable in public and just in your own skin, as someone noted. I often think to myself that I don't want to get too comfortable in extra big clothing so that I don't stay at the larger sizes, but ~ whenever I break down and buy stuff that actually fits (IF I can find it), I feel so much better about myself when I go out. I have decided that I am worth investing in at my current size and I will invest in a new wardrobe as I lose the weight, too! It can get expensive, but it is necessary for me and worth every penny. I do admit feeling a bit wasteful and shame myself a bit, thinking that I "shouldn't" have to do this (buy so many sizes of clothes), but I try hard to ignore those negative voices. I took the advice of many people and gave away all of my "fat clothes" after I lost 35+ pounds on Jenny Craig 3-4 years ago ("so that going back to them wouldn't be an option") and I am just now breaking down and buying a lot of "big" clothes again for each season. I feel wasteful to a certain degree, but it just "is what it is" right now. I do not feel sorry for you, but it makes me sad to hear you talking so disrespectful to and about yourself. Have you ever tried writing with your NON-dominant hand to get in touch with your inner child? You might think it is nuts, but I am here to tell you that it works. What I have learned from it (for better or for worse) is that the little girl inside of me is extremely pissed off at me for treating her so poorly. She doesn't trust me and is very reluctant to even talk to me. I forget to do this very often (I think because it is emotionally stressful for me), but ~ when I do ~ I always learn quite a lot. It is helpful for me to know that my inner child is mad at me, because then I know why I often rebel against myself and seem to sabotage myself. Then, I can deal with it. You may want to try it if you never have. If you are interested and NOT familiar with it, I will tell you more about it. Just let me know. Thank you for sharing more about yourself with the group. As Fi said, we are here to SUPPORT you in any and every way that we can!!! And YOU ARE WORTH IT!!! YOU DESERVE TO BE HAPPY, TOO!!! :hug:

Chelsea: So happy to hear from you lately!!! Sorry that you suffer from so much carpal tunnel pain that it wakes you up in the middle of the night! :( It sounds like Fi sure had good luck with the surgery she had for her carpal tunnel. I hope you will at least consider it and talk to your doctor about it. Regardless, good luck in dealing with the pain. That has to be frustrating, too! Happy to hear that you treat your precious animals humanely. They deserve it! ;) I am a serious animal lover!!! I could never pet an animal one day and then butcher it the next. Just don't have it in me. If I saw them die :o, I would most likely be a vegetarian. Feel guilty about THAT sometimes, too! Yep, a lot of guilt swirling around in this busy mind!!! :dizzy: I learned shame and guilt very well from my upbringing, unfortunately. :( It is so difficult to UNlearn it, too. It feels like it pumps through my body and mind along with my blood. That's how embedded in me it is. :( BUT: I have made a lot of progress and I will NOT give up on treating myself better ~ one day at a time! :D

saraphin: It sounds like you are a major animal lover, too! I love it! :D Glad to see you posting. How are you doing today?

Fi: Thank you for the link to Junonia clothing and for posting all of the other "big women's" apparel companies, too! That is very helpful as I search for athletic clothes and cute bigger clothes in general. I love one of the coats I just saw there and might just have to participate in some shop therapy tonight! ;) You are a wealth of information for this group and I really appreciate that you always take the time to list things out for us and post links. You are one thoughtful and smart lady, I can already tell! :) I am so happy to read that your shrink was able to help you with his recommendations. Relief for Fi = HOORAY!!! :D

Trish: Hey, at least it sounds like you are making a bit of PROGRESS in eating more small meals throughout the day. You have mentioned more than once about having been up for hours and not yet eating. I would recommend that you really focus on eating something within an hour of waking up to get your metabolism started and to "break" the "fast" (breakfast) that your body had during the night. This is crucial for weight loss. Otherwise, your metabolism will slow down and go into starvation mode. Not good for your body. Just try to focus on little gradual changes. Otherwise, you might get overwhelmed. Little changes eventually add up to positive results over time if you keep them up! YOU CAN DO IT!!! :D

Holly: How are you? Hope things are well with you! :hug:

Fi, thank you for sharing your experience with CTR surgery. Since this really just started recently, I am hoping to be able to work with my acupuncturist and vigilance to relieve what I am experiencing, but I am really glad to hear that it was so helpful for you. It is nice to know that if it gets to that point I have a *good* option, not just the last option. We get very little sun here in the winter, so our doctors are well versed in ways to get a little afternoon pick me up. North-Western Oregon is one of the SAD-est places in the country ;)

Kathleen, I love animals! My partner has to constantly tell me no... If I could I would rescue every sad critter I came across. It really is hard to process the rabbits since they are so fuzzy, but with how meat is processed in the "industry" these days I have a very hard time eating anything that I can't get from a friend or neighbor or raise myself. This way I know that the meat I get is treated well while it is alive, and free from any hormones/excess anti-biotics/other weird stuff. We always give the animal a little word of appreciation before it goes too :) Were you raised catholic? Every one of my friends who was raised catholic, whether or not the practice still, struggles with unnecessary/excessive guilt. Catholic or not, dropping the burden of guilt is so difficult. I would consider it up there with smoking, and very few people I know that quit smoking ever really quit for good. I love to hear from you that you redirect your thoughts to the positive, it really helps! It is one of my favorite practices and has really helped me through some difficult times. So much of what we do is habit. Keep your beautiful chin up and keep catching yourself when you have those negative thoughts!

Becca, My goals right now are to lose weight, but mostly my focus is on cutting out simple carbohydrates and smaller portion sizes so that my diet consists more of healthy foods and less pie... I am also trying to change the way that I think about food, and exercise more. With the weather as it has been around here I haven't really been on top of it. Trying to get motivated to do more now that the ice is melting off, and eat less warm bread-y comfort food.
Trish, it is great to hear that you are making progress with changing the way that you are eating. Little steps are key to making it to your goal. Have you considered morning meditations or breathing exercises? They can be especially helpful if you wake up with anxiety(I used to wake up with panic attacks multiple times a week). Even 10 minutes a day can help re-direct your mental and physical energy. Maybe it could help get your head in a good place for your day? Keep taking those steps, you are going in a really good direction and we are thinking of you!

Holly, Sometimes it just seems like bed is the best place to be! Some weeks too...Even when you aren't feeling bad, mental illness is exhausting! This last weekend was very bed oriented for me also. That was a good thought to take the sheets off, I'm going to try that :D

So, the last couple of days I have been having a lot of anxiety. I had a good appt. with my acupuncturist today, and I am trying out a new supplement to help out with anxiety. I am still hoping that I won't have to increase my celexa or start a new pharmaceutical. My acupuncturist is versed in herbal and pharmaceutical medicine and treats many other bipolar clients, so no need to worry about dangerous interactions! Hopefully we can get me to a point where I have the energy I need and not the anxiety, so I can continue to work on stopping the celexa. I forget, does anyone else here take bupropion? I will check back through the threads, but would like to hear how it works for you; specifically if you are also bipolar.

Thanks all,
Chelsea

I am so sorry not to have time to address each of you wonderful chicks personally this morning..just it is so wonderful to communicate with you all :hug:

I MUST give a hurrah to CDubs (chelsea?) I am SO impressed that you are able to raise, then humanely butcher your meat, after honoring and loving them. I have always felt like a hypocrite (there's that guilt, haha) by just buying meat all cleanly wrapped up in the store..feeling guilt on how those animals were possibly treated but all I do is purchase..you are a true being of the Earth that you do that!

that is all for now but I hope all of you can have a good day with minimal if any bad feelings :)

(let's BANISH that stinkin' thinking!!! :p: devil: )

hi all
 

hi everyone' thanks for posting your thoughts and well-wishes. you are all so supportive, yet you need so much support. :hug::hug::hug:

i read all of your posts, carefully, and i pay each word the respect it deserves. although i can't always find the time to go back through and post individually, i do think of everything you lovely people have said! :hug::hug::hug:

now having said that i want to tell you that i have a rule. i learned it from a friend years ago and i have never forgotten it and i think of it often:

NEVER PUT YOURSELF DOWN. :):):)

got it?

ok then

i have lost another 100 grams..i think i need to buy a pretty dress for xmas day if i can find one, tomorrow. :dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

and i will remember the rule when iu am trying on dresses! :):):)

yes, i love my pets. they are my children now . now that my real children have grown and are living their own lives. i miss them so much - they are in another city and i don't see them very often unfortunately. i think i will need to go over again soon. like now! :o:o:o

but i will have to let them know that i have no money to give them. one always wants...the other never wants, i just want to give! :carrot::carrot::carrot:

haha

i soo want to go now that i have started to talk about it grrr :(:(:(

i can't afford it though. oh well, what can i do? nothing, really. not since i cut up my credit cards and closed those accounts…the best thing because i can't be trusted around a credit card! lol :carrot::carrot::carrot:

ber happy, you are allowed to choose it you know, until tomorrow friends, saraphin
xxx

I feel like I'm coming down with a cold or something, so just a short note tonight. I'm doing great diet-wise, and delighted to be free of emotional/compulsive eating. Comfort and joy, and good health to you all!

Fi: Way to go on 23 days binge-free!!! :cb: That is wonderful! Keep up the great work! ;) I visited the Junonia website and ordered a few more workout shirts and a parka coat! Thanks again for the link! ;)

Chelsea: Yes, you guessed it, I was raised Catholic! I am actually still a very strong practicing Catholic, but my entire notion of God and Catholicism is different/healthier now than when I was a child. I blame my parents, not Catholicism, for the guilt and shame that was passed on to me. Unfortunately, it is now my responsibility to continue to let go of the shame and guilt that piled up over a lifetime. I will get there! :) My husband and I share a very strong faith, which has been seriously tested during our lives together. Our strong faiths have seen us through many difficult times and ~ along with the suffering ~ we have also experienced some serious miracles along the way. :sunny: We feel very blessed that our paths crossed and that we reinforced in one another the best of our Catholic faith. I could seriously write a book based on our experiences!

Holly: Thanks for checking in! Here's to banishing the stinkin' thinkin'...... once and for all!!! :cheers:

saraphin: Congrats on losing 100 more grams! Good for you! And I love your rule to NEVER PUT YOURSELF DOWN!!! :D Thanks for sharing! ;)

Trish, Becca, and sh1nk1ngme: How are you ladies? Please post and let us know!

Oooooo I had a really close call last night on the emotional eating front, but I managed to squeak through with my streak intact. What happened was, my husband Bob and I were talking as we were getting ready to go to bed, and something I was saying about how moderate exercise elevates one's mood got Bob all defensive (because his agoraphobia has him housebound these days) and he more or less bit my head off. Normally I would have protested and we'd have had a chance to clear the air, but right after Bob's outburst, he put his head on the pillow and promptly fell asleep! I mean, one second he was making me feel terrible, and the next second he was snoring.

So I went downstairs all in a storm of feeling treated unjustly (which, I should add, Bob rarely does). I was irritable anyway from feeling like I was coming down with a virus, so I was really mad. Anger, I have discovered in the past few months, is my biggest trigger for having an episode of emotional/compulsive/binge-type eating. And it's especially dangerous for me to get angry on a Friday or a Saturday night, when our local Starbucks drive-through window is open all night long. Even though it was like 2 o'clock in the morning, I could very easily have popped in my car and gone and binged on those big Starbucks oatmeal raisin cookies I love so much, with a vente-size caramel macchiato to boot! I swear, y'all, my right hand had already picked up the car keys before I caught myself. =whew=

So what I did first was to practice Kathryn Hansen's Brain Over Binge technique of separating yourself from the urge to overeat, where you view the urge as what she calls "neurological junk" from a lower part of your brain that you, the person in charge, choose to ignore—not fight, just ignore. That got my head considerably clearer and allowed me to put the car keys down.

And then I quietly and deliberately fixed myself a small serving (1/2 cup) of muesli. Yes, the same magic healing muesli that brought me out of my recent depression. This may sound silly, but it was like that little bit of carbs served as an escape valve for my overheated brain. I ate the muesli slowly, concentrating on every bite, then went to bed.

Now I'm not counting that small serving of muesli as emotional (binge) eating: rather, it was an emergency measure to help prevent emotional eating.

So that's my scary tale of rage running amok... =laugh= Oh, and the virus I thought I had seems to have disappeared.