Both veggiedaze and shiv have described my own reactions to hunger when I was dieting.

Wannabeskinny really knocked it out of the park with her description of hunger - what it is, and what it isn't -

WOW! I never really thought of hunger in this way, but this is so true! If we can keep wannabeskinny's words in mind when hunger appears, we can deal with it without panic. It isn't pain, but I think many people treat that way...something not to be tolerated and to be eradicated as quickly as possible.

Thanks for your thoughts, i really appreciate the feedback!! I would not so much think of me as being ahead of you...the way i see it, you were more successful at dieting (which is why you don't weigh 162 like i do) and that's why you're having a harder time transitioning into non-dieting. I think it will take you a while longer to normalize your eating patterns...i hope you will be patient and just not worry about it.

I agree with you that developing good eating habits (so that they are a habit, not a restriction) will be good. In that way, i am trying to think of my past dieting efforts as not a waste of time, but a learning experience. However, i don't think you should avoid going to your friend's house (or going ANYWHERE for that matter) because of the food that will be present there. At least for me, that is precisely the type of behavior that i am trying to get rid of. I have spent sooo much time being antisocial, avoiding certain situations, places, events, because i was afraid of the food that would be there. I never want to do that again. I want to live my life free of the fear of food.

I'm glad to hear you think the set mealtimes is a good idea! That seems like such a basic thing, but somehow we throw all that out the window when we start dieting (i.e. "six small meals a day", "intermittent fasting", blah blah blah). Also...i should admit that although i stated in an earlier post that i don't eat emotionally, i DO snack/overeat mindlessly during the workday (or, i used to). When faced with an unpleasant task that i don't feel like doing, i'll eat a snack (a LARGE snack, i'm not talking about a couple of baby carrots here) in order to avoid it. So, hopefully the structured mealtimes will help with that.

surfergirl - yes, I also sometimes use food to avoid doing something I don't want to, but it's usually a binge not a big snack. Bingeing is pretty much a way to "check out" of life for awhile with me.

I am still doing well and read the overfed head which I really enjoyed. One thing disturbing happened though. I decided to indulge in a glass of wine last night after a really good and non restrictive dinner, and suddenly I was getting ideas that maybe it would be "fun" to binge. There was no specific food I wanted, I just thought bingeing would be a fun activity. Since I've started this non dieting just over 3 weeks ago, I have only had wine about 3 times, and each time I get these thoughts. Good thing it was late and I was not going to drive anywhere after having alcohol in my system, but I really felt at risk of bingeing if I had had the opportunity. On a lot of bulimia recovery websites, it is suggested people do not drink while recovering because it lowers their inhibitions and they are more likely to be compulsive. I feel torn because I really do love wine sometimes. It is a real treat. But the thoughts are scary. Having bingeing thoughts to me are just as bad as bingeing itself. It's hard to understand because my mind has felt so free lately and not food obsessed knowing there is nothing I can't have if I want it. So all of a sudden wanting to binge and on nothing in particular was really troubling. I think this is where the whole idea of "habbit" comes in where the brain pathway is still there. I am thinking it might be better to give up alcohol until I feel more solid and stable in recovery and maybe just drink at a social event where there are other people around. what do you all think? And anyone else notice this with alcohol?

veggiedaze - I'm not sure what would be the best thing for you to do, as I've not been in your position. However, I can tell you that when I drink wine I do want to snack. This is one of the reasons why, when I made up my mind to once again get rid of my extra weight (February), I made the decision to abstain from wine for 90 days. I wasn't about to tell myself that I could never have it again - rather, I chose 90 days because I felt like that was a significant enough length of time to break my habit of plopping in front of the TV every evening with wine and pistachios (or chips, or cheese, or whatever). I knew I had a wedding coming up in May and decided that I wouldn't drink any wine until that weekend.

Getting rid of the wine totally eliminated my nighttime snacking. I was also amazed at how easy it was to give up. I'll admit I'm a tad nervous about drinking it the weekend of the wedding (it's an out of town wedding with social activities for four nights straight) as I don't want to fall back into the habit of drinking it every night, but since I'll be drinking it only in social settings I believe I won't have any problems restricting it to only social occasions. I've noticed that the only time I've missed it at all is when I'm out with friends or family, so if I can keep it to those occasions only I should be fine. I've made up my mind that I'll treat it like any other food - I'll drink it slowly and savor it. And I'll not mindlessly snack while drinking it. If I do this I should be satisfied with less.

So because of my own situation, I have a tendency to agree with you about limiting your intake. Alcohol definitely reduces your inhibitions and it sounds as if it's having an effect on your ability to resist binging. If you're thinking of binging in terms of "having fun," I would be concerned that continuing the wine will eventually lead to "oh, just this once won't hurt" type of mentality. And we all know where that leads, unfortunately.

You took the words right out of my mouth southernmavin when you said the whole "oh just this once won't hurt mentality". That is exactly what I was thinking. Just like you, I don't have difficulty giving up wine. I just wanted to include it because I didn't want to "restrict" anything. But I honestly feel it may inhibit my progress toward stopping bingeing. I won't say I will never drink it, but I think I will reserve it for social occasions instead of drinking it at home when I am alone and much more vulnerable to my devious thoughts.

hi all - still going well with not restricing. went out to lunch yesterday with a friend and had a sandwhich and yes there was real bread involved :). I think I am seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. Also, I decided a couple days ago to go off anti-depression medication I have been taking. Honestly, it doesn't improve my depression at all and I have just continued taking it to avoid the awful withdrawal symptoms it causes. It is the same symptoms as someone quitting smoking. I am in the worst of it now and every other time I've gone off it or attempted to go off it my bingeing was super bad during the withdrawal. This time I definitely feel super gross like always, but I am not turning to food. It's like when you're not restricting food it doesn't seem like such a good solution to stress anymore. it just seems pointless. so that is good, but I am super bloated and out of it with a foggy mind due to the withdrawal. I am about to take my dog for a walk (maybe two) to help with the symptoms and speed up getting this drug out of my system. And then I'll make sure I have whatever i so desire for dinner :). Thanks everyone again. And I still feel it is good for me to avoid the alcohol. I really don't want anything messing with my mind which is why i want to get off this medication. I think it may disrupt proper hunger signals etc. Not saying at all people should get off their meds if it helps them. Mine don't and my doctor also believes I should stop since it is not helping me in anyway and she only continues to prescribe it to me because she knows I am not ready for the withdrawal.

Hi there,

I just read this book and think that after trying SBD, WW and other stuff, I might give Intuitive Eating another chance.

http://www.amazon.com/Have-Your-Skin.../dp/B00B9JKNBC

I have stopped dieting for the last 4 days and was amazed how I am haunted by junk food. I have a pint of B&J at home and had one scoop this week instead of 4 pints (my usual "binge"). Haven´t binged since then either.

All these intuitive eating books haven´t worked for me in the past, but this one is different in a way. I am excited about what is to come.

Another question: What are your takes on counting calories and weighing yourself? Over the last few days I have loosely and just to make sure I don´t fool myself into overeating checked the calories I ate before going to bed (so no tracking all day long, just double checking where I am "intuitively"). I was amazed that I stayed between 1200 and 2000 depending on what my food options were and how hungry I was.

I am currently not weighing myself since I always eat "strategically" to see a loss in the morning, i.e. skipping dinner, eating a lot because "I blew it anyway" etc. I am just scared to gain weight without knowing, but I feel so calm right now without having to check my weight. Still - I want to lose weight.

Just adding my own experience with wine to the mix. I find I can easily refrain from snacking if I have one glass of wine (6 oz, or 1/4 bottle). Anything more and I'm vulnerable. That's why I've chosen the single daily glass as my compromise.

Freelance

If you're up for a bit of TMI... I've been on and off an antidepressant for many years, not for depression but for anxiety (which is pretty much limited to concerns about my kids, but can get pretty acute). It's the only drug that works for me and it completely wipes out my sexual response. Whenever I go off there's a kind of rebound effect, so for the next couple of weeks I feel the need to have several (cough cough) orgasms per day, usually by my own hand. Interestingly enough, going off the drug has no effect on my hunger or interest in food.

Freelance

Out of curiosity i just googled the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, where men were put on an extremely low calorie diet (1600 calories, when their maintenance was 3200) for 6 months. The results, after they were allowed to go back to eating in unlimited quantities, was that they binged until they gained back all their weight PLUS 10%. But then 9 months later, their weight had returned to their pre-experiment weight.

I think that study is illustrative. I do question, however, whether the findings would apply equally to overweight people. The people in the study were of a normal weight (normal in 1940...which is different than "normal" now)

yeah, It is really interesting this experiment and it would be nice to know if it would be the same with overweight people at the beginning. I do remember reading an article (i wish i knew what article) that said alot of the past contestants from the biggest loser gained their weight back plus more and became more eating disordered than they started with. I think the subject of weight is so complicated and it's so hard to say if there is one thing that will apply to everyone. I don't know what is the best thing for someone who has never been a normal eater or a normal weight. I have heard of studies that show that overweight people differ in hormone levels but it is always a chicken and egg question. Did the wacky hormones cause the weight gain or did the weight gain cause the wacky hormones. Noone really knows the answer to the questions regarding weight and experts are so divided. It's really a tough thing.

I am doing well with the no dieting thing, but there are many things I miss like being in "total control" during restriction and feeling almost better than other less disciplined people (I know that is ridiculous to think that but I can't help it), and I miss the high and escape of the binge. The longer I go without bingeing the more I forget how awful I feel about myself and how sick I feel only after about 10 bites into a binge. Now, I don't have that awful sick feeling and feeling like I will forever be controlled by food, but I feel generally not as good overall because by incorporating some "junk foods" sometimes I do tend to overdue it (it's really weird to overeat now because before it has just been perfection or binge; there was never an in between such as overeating), and I just never feel "in control". I just feel a little down about this because I want to "have my cake and eat it too". I want to not binge but be fully in control and it just seems like a paradox that will never be possible. Maybe though if I can establish a better relationship with food and get used to not bingeing and then at some point I can try to impose some kind of control to fulfill that emptiness I have, without heading back into the destructive bingeing routine. It may not be possible, who knows. It's tough for me to accept I will have to eat things like junk food more regularly to be normal. Just like someone with weight issues doesn't really want to accept being at a higher weight than they want. It all comes down to taking the good with the bad, and what your priorities are. I have to keep remembering my priority now is getting better with my eating disorder and that not restricting is part of the recovery process.

wow, sure wish that was the kind of withdrawal I was having! For me it is lightheadedness, brain fog, nodding off at all times of the day, nausea, indigestion, and generally just feeling like I have the worst hangover of my life. I am past 72 hours now though so I can tell things are alot better. It seems weird that these symptoms would make me want to binge, but pretty much anything makes me want to binge for that zoning out effect. I will say though that on the medication my libido is also non existent. That seems like a common complaint with alot of anti-anxiety/antidepression meds.

I will try the one glass of wine thing although it would have to be half a glass as 1 glass for me actually equals 2 based on the size of the glasses I have :).

Surfergirl - one more thing I forgot to say that is interesting to me about the minnesota experiment is that I am a replica of that experient. I had disordered eating all through my teens but never actually succeeded in losing any weight with it. I would skip breakfast and not bring a lunch to school and then overeat alot when I got home although it was never bingeing and my weight stayed the same (normal) much to my disdain (that part wasn't like the experiement). It wasn't until I was in college and lost 10-15 pounds very quickly through a very low calorie starvation diet that the bingeing very first started and i regained all the weight plus a couple pounds more. I remember feeling so confused about it and totally bewildered about what was happening. I didn't even know it was called bingeing. It was so disturbing to me and I remembered calling my mom and telling her that I didn't know what was going on but I just couldn't stop eating. What differs from me than the minnesota experiment though is that I never resumed normal eating after that. I was too scared. As soon as I would give up the control I would overeat and it would freak me out and I didn't think I could trust myself. I feared that I would just keep eating until I died. It's funny because that other thread that is going on right now about eating all day every day sounds like the same scenario I went through exactly. That was about when my obsession with health began because I just wanted to cure myself.

Also about what you said on the other thread that you are not bingeing but are eating about the same binge amount just spread out over the day. It is interesting to me because I am not really finding that. I am definitely overeating junk foods (although getting less and less), but the overall amount I am pretty sure is much less because my binges were so massive. I am not noticing that I am piling on the pounds or anything, just feeling bloated due to the higher level of carbs and salt I am ingesting from the new foods I am incorporating. I do believe still processed foods are addictive, but I think the effects were amplified for me due to restricting them completely. It seems weird with junk foods: too much makes you want more, and too little makes you want more. It's no wonder noone can really figure out this weight/food thing. There are so many pieces to the puzzle.

That's great you are giving it a try. Anything is worth trying for someone who is struggling. Did I read that right that you are haunted with junk food after quitting dieting for 4 days? And what book are you reading. I am not really reading too much only because I am the type that will take it like a diet and will cling to any rules and regulations and become obsessed with exactness. If you are not OCD like that it may be much different for you. Also I'm not sure what your intentions are: are trying to lose weight, or are you trying to stop bingeing or both? Also, have you ever been a normal eater in the past and only started bingeing after dieting or losing weight? It seems as though the outcome of intuitive eating is different for different people and the outcome is not always weight loss but can also be weight gain or weight maintenence. I think the main goal of intuitive eating is to lose the food obsession and behavours like bingeing, and to possibly return a person to their "set weight" if such a weight actually exists, and is said to often be more than what someone wants to actually weigh.

I notice that many eating disorder websites and articles (not directed at weight loss) advocate the principles of intuitive eating in the recovery of bulimia and the cyclical binge/restrict cycle. I'm not sure if this is the case with either anorexia or bingeing that is not cyclical. I think approaches like overeaters anonymous advocate sticking to a structured plan and abstinence of triggers and is directed towards compulsive overeaters and bingers that do not restrict (I am totally unsure about this as I tend to look at treatment recommendations for bulimia as that is the most similar to what I am at this time minus the purging part).

Also about the calorie counting/weighing thing. From what I gather, intuitive eating is supposed to be a way to free yourself from calorie counting and the obsession over number. same with weighing. It is obviously something someone has to decide on for themselves. I doubt I would make it as far as I have (+3 weeks) had I been counting calories and weighing myself. I think that would have caused me to lose focus on quitting bingeing rather than being perfect. I also don't see how observing those things wouldn't somehow influence your eating on a subconcious level. I really don't know what to say about this. It just seems strange to "quit dieting" but still count calories. Maybe someone else could chime in on this. I am sure there is no "right" answer.

Okay, I just re-read your last paragraph where you said you would like to lose weight and don't want to gain weight without knowing. It's really hard to say what to do. I can't deny that there are many people that do gain weight doing this. It is a leap of faith. You say you are liking the calm feeling you have. Also I'm not sure how much you binge and how much it impairs your life. Some people might be happy bingeing once a week or so if it means maintaining a lower weight. I thought that was where I was but I'm just really getting tired of the bingeing now.

Veggiedaze I am sorry I meant I am NOT haunted by any kinds of food anymore. I ate way less than I usually would because I know I can have it any time I want now.

I copied the link to the book I read in my posting, it is called THIN and has a cupcake on the cover.

U are right - losing the weight is important for me. I am obese (200 lbs) and would love to be a mom in like two years. The thought of not only getting bigger but also being a diet maniac, unhappy and not physically fit mom frightens me. After trying any diet out there for the last 5 years and constantly losing the same 20lbs plus gaining a few more when going off the diet I want to make a change.

I binged all my life so maybe intuitive eating isn't the correct phrase for me, because my intuition tells me to restrict or binge. I guess I am trying to find a healthy way of life and not jumping from diet plan to diet plan.

I just want to know how people like me should approach this? Do u have any suggestions? Last time I tried this without counting my calories or weighing myself I gained 15lbs that I still carry around. Feeling so uncomfortable makes me want to turn to diets that again get me to lose weight for like five minutes.

I feel I have a hard time weighing myself. It makes and breaks my day. I justify bingeing when I am losing and I binge when I am not losing because It doesn't work. So I decided now to not weigh. At the same time I am so scared to get even bigger and more unhealthy that checking my calories at night calms me down and ensures me that I am not eating too much and that I should be able to trust myself. At the same time I know this isn't what IE is about.

I guess I am wondering what - as a person that was always overweight, overate, restricted and binged - I should do...i am so confused right now.

Re bingeing - i dont want to binge ever again, bingeing once a week isn't an option anymore. I am just tired of food always being the focus in my life.