Well put Wannabeskinny! The secretive aspect is the key for me too, I think. It's not the quantity that I'm eating, so much as the sneaking it. Even when I lived alone, I felt like I was sneaking. I felt guilty at the grocery store buying things I "shouldn't" have. I bagged up the containers separately and put them in the dumpster outside my apartment building. It probably would have looked like normal eating to an outsider, but it felt like it was controlling me. It stressed me out and made me sad. There's nothing "normal" about that.

I'm loving the discussion on here so much - thank you everyone for contributing!

I also feel that I never want to binge ever again, planned or not. Overeating a little during Christmas or overindulging a bit in exotic foods when travelling is perfectly fine in my book and almost everyone does it occasionally, but the secretive, I'd-be-so-embarrassed-if-someone-saw-me-now thing I do is not. It is not part of healthy eating... it's not really the food quantity that's the problem for me either; under different circumstances I could count the same amount of food to be either a binge or a perfectly healthy normal meal.

I realised yesterday how true it really is that binging (or for me it's about overeating, not so much about binging) can be just a habit and nothing more. I've somehow thought that I overeat when I feel depressed or sad or anxious... and maybe that's sometimes the case, but really most of the time it's the other way round: I become depressed/sad/anxious when I overeat! It really seems to be just a habit and there doesn't seem to be anything emotional behind it most of the time. I guess it could be something physical because I was anorexic for a long time; I guess my animal brain occasionally freaks out if I eat a little less and wants to make sure I won't become malnourished again. So there's nothing emotional or deeper I need to work on; I only need to quit the habit my brain has bought into. With time I'm sure it'll learn that these days I always eat enough and won't deny my body food ever again.

That's somehow extremely relieving... not needing to work on emotional issues I can't seem to be able to identify but which I thought I was supposed to have :D ...I can simply stop going with the habit!

Happy binge-free day to all! :smug:

Originally Posted by mkroyer:
Binging is never ok. EVER. Under any circumstance is it ok to do what we do to ourselves, and eat the way we are driven to eat.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I fully agree. Taking alcohol as a similar example, prevailing wisdom has it that the only way to overcome a drinking problem is to abstain fully and permanently. No doubt this is true for just about all hard-core alcoholics. However, I once wrote an article about an approach called Moderation Management, which has been found to work very well for some people with less pronounced alcoholic tendencies.

Right now, I don't feel prepared to give up the experience of eating without abandon forever and always. What I've done instead is put firm boundaries around the experience. I only do it when I and my family go out for all-you-can-eat Asian food, which happens maybe 5-6 times per year. It's not a frantic experience, I enjoy every bite, there's no shame involved, but I do consume about 4,000 calories, well into binge territory. I've been indulging in these occasional "planned binges" while losing 55 pounds and maintaining the loss for over a year.

I've taken a similar approach to smoking, which most people consider an all-or-nothing proposition. While I officially quit smoking many years ago, I still allow myself to smoke in two circumstances: while travelling on business or while alone at our cottage. Again, this happens about 5-6 times per year. I was never physically addicted to nicotine, so this approach is not a struggle for me.

Ultimately, it's up to each of us to know ourselves and figure out what is most sustainable for us. For me, it's making very occasional room for unhealthy pleasures, with firm boundaries in place. For you or the next person, it may be something else.

F.

Originally Posted by freelancemomma:
I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I fully agree. Taking alcohol as a similar example, prevailing wisdom has it that the only way to overcome a drinking problem is to abstain fully and permanently. No doubt this is true for just about all hard-core alcoholics. However, I once wrote an article about an approach called Moderation Management, which has been found to work very well for some people with less pronounced alcoholic tendencies.

Right now, I don't feel prepared to give up the experience of eating without abandon forever and always. What I've done instead is put firm boundaries around the experience. I only do it when I and my family go out for all-you-can-eat Asian food, which happens maybe 5-6 times per year. It's not a frantic experience, I enjoy every bite, there's no shame involved, but I do consume about 4,000 calories, well into binge territory. I've been indulging in these occasional "planned binges" while losing 55 pounds and maintaining the loss for over a year.

I've taken a similar approach to smoking, which most people consider an all-or-nothing proposition. While I officially quit smoking many years ago, I still allow myself to smoke in two circumstances: while travelling on business or while alone at our cottage. Again, this happens about 5-6 times per year. I was never physically addicted to nicotine, so this approach is not a struggle for me.

Ultimately, it's up to each of us to know ourselves and figure out what is most sustainable for us. For me, it's making very occasional room for unhealthy pleasures, with firm boundaries in place. For you or the next person, it may be something else.

F.

I don't disagree with what you wrote, however I do want to clarify that the term "binge" means something different to everyone. Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your history with bingeing. But for me, as stated in previous posts, bingeing is not about how many calories I consume, it is an act of secrecy, a planned secret meal between "regular" meals I eat with my family. I can't even fathom consuming 4000cal in one meal, I don't think I've ever done that nor do I think I am capable.

What mkroyer is talking about is the loss of the control over our eating that takes over our minds, puts us into a trance and takes over our lives. Everyone indulges once in a while, but being a binge eater is not a condition of too much indulgence, it is a physiological inability to control our impulses and a compulsive response to our urges. It's not about calories.

Thank you wannabe.. much more eloquent than i would have been :)

Freelance--> i think what you are describing is pretty much the exact opposite of a binge.... the calorie amount does not not matter. It is the losss of control, the unplanned, uncontrolable urges.. the guilt and shame.It is huddle dover your kitchen sink trying to get yourself to drop the food down the disposal but you kaap taking one more bite.

What you describe is an indulgence. A special occassion. A treat. A reward. Whatever you want to call it. It is healthy and normal to overeat on occassion... and in the rand scheme of things, a 4000 calorie, enjoyable experience will hardly make or break you.

It sounds to me like youve been blessed with the gift of moderation. You were very moderate in your weightloss approach. You are moderate in your maintenance. You can even moderately smoke and drink! A true *addict* cannot engage in moderate behavior. They are obsessive complusive in every aspect of their lives.

When i said it was never ok to binge... im refering to the behavior itself, and what it does to you psychologically/emotionally, but also the negative health consequences, which alot of people dont even realize. Not just weight gain. Regular, excessive binging leads to a host of imbalances,stresses on your digestive system, wreaking havoc on hormone blood sugar responses...and more.
it is never ok to that to yourself (but that doesnt stop us) because the urge is so powerful.
Its sad, because o lot of people with binge issues cant even allow themselves to have the special indulgences you have and enjoy. It triggers more binging! That is the cycle of an addict.
I am not preaching from a high horse--> i struggle daily with my addictions and binge behaviors....

Originally Posted by mkroyer:
Freelance--> i think what you are describing is pretty much the exact opposite of a binge.... the calorie amount does not not matter. It is the losss of control, the unplanned, uncontrolable urges..

Well, I wrote my previous post because someone in this thread (can't remember who it was) maintained that a planned (i.e., controlled) binge is still a binge and that quantity does matter. If we agree that lack of control is part of what defines a binge, then I'm on board with your statement that binging is never OK.

F.

p.s. For what it's worth, I don't consider myself a moderate person. I'm obsessive in a thousand ways, including with food. My former binges were highly ritualized, obsessive-by-any-standard events. It's just that "never again" is even less palatable to me than "stick to your own damn rules if it kills you."

Originally Posted by Wannabeskinny:
I can't even fathom consuming 4000cal in one meal, I don't think I've ever done that nor do I think I am capable.

I wish I could say the same about myself. I'm not sure why I don't get normal fullness signals or digestive symptoms when massively overeating, but I never have. I used to have fairly regular breakfast binges of four homemade crepes loaded with Nutella and drenched in maple syrup -- easily 4,000 calories, almost all of it in carbs and fat. I remember I would only start feeling full (as in "I don't really want to eat anymore") at the end of the fourth one, and I never felt stomach pains or a sugar crash or anything like that. Nuts, eh?

Seems I've always been this way. I've told this story before, but here goes again: When I was four years old I found a full box of chocolates lying on a table in our house, and proceeded to eat the whole thing. My father told my mother, "Good, she'll get sick and go off chocolates," but neither of his predictions came to pass.:dizzy:

F.

My animal brain sure feels strong today... And my rational self feels like a loser. :P but at least I am maintaining that there IS a difference... I think I can I think I can I think I can....

Me too. My animal brain is pushing for sugar, but I'm not giving in.

I ate a lot of crap yesterday and ended in a bit of a binge. Taco Bell is what did it.

But today I am feeling better. I've been having a few strange weeks, I think. Me and my friend are working on moving out together and it's exciting. I'm really ready to go do it, but that means the next month is going to be pretty hectic. Saving for a deposit, looking for an affordable apartment, getting furniture and stuff together. All this during a new semester in college...It's going to be rough. I am really just trying to maintain some healthy eating habits, rather than worrying about weight loss or quanitity.

I'd rather I overeat on tuna and hummus than on Taco Bell, because at least tuna and hummus has some nutrients to offer.

It has been a weird coupel of days. I've been away on a business trips, logging several hours driving alone. It also means eating alone and stopping to eat foods along the way that are a special treat since we don't have those particular restaurants/food available in NY. It's very confusing because eating alone is my trigger for bingeing, so anything I eat feels like it's a secret binge. I did not eat healthily but I also did not eat a lot and I continue to be confused by what is bingeing and what is not. This is the toughest part for me.

I have been really struggling the past few days.

Those feelings like I'm never going to beat this and lose weight keep coming back. They are constant. :(

I am just trying to eat relatively normally, and hang on for dear life.

So true on the "what is a binge?" question! Last night I bought a big bag of M&Ms. On my drive home I ate 5 of them. 5 M&Ms. But it felt secretive like a binge. It was probably around 100 calories (PMS monster to blame), and I didn't even want dinner later that night. It still felt wrong for some reason. And at my desk the last week or two, I have been secretly eating 6-8 prunes a day (for digestion and nutritional purposes). I know I'm only sneaking because I'm sort of embarassed to be eating PRUNES (lol!), and it doesn't feel at all like a binge, though from the outside, I'm sure it doesn't look like normal eating. It's so weird!

Thank you for mentioning this book, I'm a little over 1/3 of it and it is helping me a lot.

Originally Posted by flippychick:
So true on the "what is a binge?" question! Last night I bought a big bag of M&Ms. On my drive home I ate 5 of them. 5 M&Ms. But it felt secretive like a binge. It was probably around 100 calories (PMS monster to blame), and I didn't even want dinner later that night. It still felt wrong for some reason. And at my desk the last week or two, I have been secretly eating 6-8 prunes a day (for digestion and nutritional purposes). I know I'm only sneaking because I'm sort of embarassed to be eating PRUNES (lol!), and it doesn't feel at all like a binge, though from the outside, I'm sure it doesn't look like normal eating. It's so weird!

Yes, exactly. I am so overwhelmed by my disordered eating. Everything feels wrong because deep down inside I feel like I don't deserve to eat, like I'm too fat to eat a carrot. And you're right, I could be eating carrots but as long as I'm alone it feels like a binge. I'm thinking I need a babysitter.

I hate the holidays. My mother is staying with us for the holidays and she's cooking and baking every day. I can't resist the pull of the sugar. It's so nice to have her help here, babysitting as much as I need her to, helping us around the house, cooking all our meals. At the same time I don't want to alert her to my diet needs because I know she'd react really poorly to it (she has always been a major source of anxiety as all mothers are lol). And so she's cooking rice dishes, pasta dishes, stews etc that are carb heavy and I can't refuse. This is the first holiday I've spent with my mother in over 7yrs, I want to partake of her cooking, her food is soooooo good! It's just so nice to be taken care of again I'm just letting her.