I just want to step in with a slight mod hat... I understand those that are low carb getting their information from low carb sites and this is officially the low carb forum. I think it is fine to discuss various health comparisons and what not but I'm sure most low carbers have little interest in reading sites that debunk low carbing and I think that is reasonable. I think there is so much information out there that you can't read it all and that if you do try, you will be confused or even could hit a wall mentally.

The thing that has taught me anything is that us humans are very adaptable. I hear similar arguments that are coming from Larry that I hear from 80/10/10ers (80% carb/10% fat/10% protein) that the optimal human diet is carbs and fats are making us 'diseased'. They will also produce studies from various 'gurus' as well. I know that isn't a diet for me either.

To me the optimal diet is one that helps you feel mentally sane, one that you believe you can follow for life and one that you feel good about. For some that is a low carb diet, for some it isn't and that is ok.

I'm really familiar with the low carb approach and paleo, I have years of failing at it. I ultimately think that people do eat too many carbs, there seems to be no balance and no end to what people will eat and the ubiquity of fast food, affordable vs unaffordable foods at the grocery store and the powerful lobbies of wheat and corn make for an uphill battle for a typical family to eat nutritionally. But you make a good point, a lot of people come to this forum to get information, it's sad that the information has to be so extreme, one sided and fright-inducing when it doesn't have to be like that. It's not necessary to live in fear of food, I have never made good decisions out of fear.

Nelie, your diet and my diet are significantly different. But you don't accuse me of not caring about being human, and in turn I don't predict that you will get ill and die. You have your way and I have my way, and it looks like we're both happy healthy and content with our lifestyle. I have nothing to gain by converting you to my way of eating, because I'm not a megalomaniac who derives pleasure from converting people to my way.

The site I linked is a blog written by a person who is pro low carb. While she follows a low carb lifestyle herself her site is about science and rationality not speculation and dogma.

Personally I will almost always reccomend people try out low carb first when they are looking to change their diet and/or lose weight. I follow a fairly low carb lifestyle myself.

It's not about debunking low carbing it's about debunking the speculative claims that are based on pseudoscience.

I'm posting here because Larry once sent me a PM at the end of February and said he appreciated my input because he was trying to learn as much as possible about this subject. I'm starting to doubt the veracity of that message but we all have long lives ahead of us so time will tell.

JohnP, I question myself constantly. I like the MarksDailyApple website because people bring up new information, and Mark does himself, and constantly challenge their own beliefs. In fact the hallmark of people on the website is that most challenged coventional wisdom. It would be pretty sad that if those people, including me, did not constantly challenge their beliefs. Don't assume that because I remain steadfast that grains are not good for people, to a lesser or greater degree, it isn't because I don't constantly challenge that belief.

Read this book, it is only a few dollars. it will explain the Japan 'counter example'. It has hundreds and hundreds of references. Read that. It is true I don't read all your links as I am sure you don't mine. $3 on Kindle: Whole Grains, Empty Promises: The Surprising Truth About the World's Most Overrated 'Health' Food

In your Japan example for instance they eat white rice, not whole rice, not brown rice. And the ones in the blue zone eat a lot less than people assume. Diabetes is exploding in Asia. EXPLODING. Traditional methods of grain preparation to lessen the negative impacts but they do not alleviate the negative impacts. Asian countries have one of the lowest heights of any population. It isn't genes. When coming to America, subsequent generations quickly gain height. It is related to diet. Height is not a perfect correlation to health, but you would probably enjoy this being tall, there is some correlation.

And Wannabe please feel free to have grains the rest of your life. You just go right ahead.

I find many threads, many threads I personally feel are giving really bad information on 3FC. I don't go in them, I don't say that, I've decided to let it be. If I was a megalomaniac wouldn’t I be going in those forums? I cringe, cringe at some of the Chicks in Control threads although there are some excellent posts. But when I see people bashing themselves, sometimes, for hunger when they are eating hunger and binge worthy foods. When they have tried over and over on low-fat calorie restricted diets, which very few (I am not saying not a one) humans can succeed on and blame themselves, it hurts me to see. Many cringe worthy in my eyes posts. I let them be. It isn’t my place. Let people sort it out as best they can.

But in this little corner of 3FC, I’d like to share what I believe the keys to health and well-being. So I have strongly, I think life changing, health giving views to share and you are knocking me and Nellie is knocking me as well for sharing them in a thread I started?

You both are coming in to this thread I started and made no bones about saying from the get go grains are bad and lead to serious health consequences for most and bashing me and I'm the megalomaniac? I’ve no problem you disagreeing and stating that here in this thread. And if I said the things I did here in a general forum, fine, bash me then. But here? If someone was like this is bullocks they could have stopped at the first post. At the first paragraph in fact.

You think grains aren't bad I think grains are. And like millions of others are doing, I am never going to stop sharing that information. You know what it comes down to? People taking responsibility for their own health journeys. I’d urge everyone to think my views are complete and utter junk. But go to the Internet and put in grains are bad and read the information. Read Grain Brain, read Wheat Belly. Read about lectins and phytates. Google Paleo, Primal, ancestral health. Are all of us deluded? Perhaps. I’d say my health and life transformation argues otherwise, but sure feel free to have that opinion. I’d say the massive rise of obesity and diabetes on low-fat advice argues otherwise as well.

Better yet try grain free for 30 days. See. And I mean really grain free. That means no processed foods because it is everywhere. That means anytime going out to a restaurant making sure it is a grain free dish. Many side dishes and sauces will have them. I don’t know if Nellie truly went grain free. It isn’t easy. But you will never know without that.

Do NOT trust me, think I am wrong and everyone else is about everything they are saying. At first. That is a necessary first step. Then research and self-experiment for yourself.

BTW I haven’t shared this. My daughter just turned 4. At 3 she was at 5% for height. She has a genetic deletion that is strongly associated with reduced height, like 4 foot 6 at most. They were thinking of HGF therapy. Now correlation is not causation. But after eating this way for a year as well at her 4 year exam she was at 20th% for height. And she is absolutely thriving, happy, wonderful, amazing. And she personally got much better at pre-school when we switched from oatmeal to eggs for her breakfasts.

Again this is only N=1. But I’ll be darned if I am not going to shout out about grains being bad and whole foods high natural saturated fats low carb being the key to health and thriving. And oh yeah weight loss.

Wannabe your 'thing' is intuitive eating. You post about it everywhere. I feel that focus can do incredible harm to people when they are not addressing their blood sugar, carbs, hunger, being sugar burners, nutrient density in their diets, etc. Yes some people can eat anything and lose weight. But very few. Very, very few. So I feel your advice can lead to people feeling they are awful faliures because, guess what? Many people can not restrict their binging and their over-eating with the amount of insulin they are producing.

Grains are not particularly nutrient dense and, I believe, contain anti-nutrients. Plus people that are insulin resistant and eat them go into perpetual fat storage mode, fall walled off mode and they literally, truly can not lose their fat because they have put their bodies into a state of constant insulin production. So they are hungry all the time. Unfortunately literally all but almost guaranteed to fail at weight loss when in that state no matter how incredible they get at any eating approach. They have to understand the science of obesity and hunger and fat storage versus fat burning. But I don't go in your threads and say so.

Grains are bad. They are bad for everyone to a lesser or greater extent. But no one is free from some negative impact. I believe that. No one else has to, but I believe it.

You believe intuitive eating is the key. I don't think it is. I think that advice, in fact, can harm many people. Without the context that a calorie is not a calorie. Good calories, bad calories if you will. Once I went high fat low carb my appetite plummeted. My insulin resistance got to normal. My leptin sensitivity got to normal. I would have bashed myself to an early death if I had focused on intutive eating and not put metabolism, hormones, insulin front and center. But I let you have your peace about it all over 3FC.

Yes this is diamondgeog.

I don't comment on what people are eating. I don't tell them that the food they eat is going to make them chronically ill. I mainly share my ideas about mindful eating practices, learning to make peace with food, learn to trust their bodies and listen for what their body needs, and cultivate their natural hunger signals. I also heavily promote the idea of not attaching the concept of morality to food since it backfires on those with eating disorders. And I encourage women to learn to love the body that they're in, because true health stems from self care, not self abuse. Nobody has ever accused me of spreading dangerous doctrine lol, unless eating slowly and paying attention to how food makes you feel has been proven to be indeed dangerous.

Really? You just google "grains are bad for you" and that's how you got your info? Google is a funny thing, it can be a source of information but if you're only asking it leading questions then you're just finding information that will support your own opinion. Did you google intuitive eating? Did you google "grains are good for you?"

At the end if the day a googled argument is not enough to make me fear grains.
You are free to visit any forum you like, why dont you stop by the intuitive eatin thread and read the stories of women who are repairing their body image and learning how to live healthy lives?

But one thing you have got to stop for crying out loud is accusing people of not going grain free. What the heck is all that about? I could repeat it until I'm blue in the face that I went grain free, as others have but you skip over those parts simply because the outcome doesn't support your claims. You don't know what I eat because I don't talk about my diet anywhere. You just assume assume assume.

One thing i'd like to know... and this is just asking, NOT to be inflammatory or argumentative because in theory (and somewhat in practice for me) i do believe in lower carb and prefer to get my carbs from whole foods non grain but...

The Paleo "people" and other very low carb/grain free seem to me to eat a tremendous amount of bacon, (and pork rinds, etc.) at least the ones that i know IRL. I cannot fathom how bacon itself is healthy in any way especially given how swine are raised and slaughtered (well i guess a lot could be said about any animal raised for food). Don't get me wrong, i love bacon but no way would i include it in my daily diet and delude myself that it's contributing to my HEALTH just because it's a grain free low carb product.

Bacon and pork rinds are both high in fat and moderate in protein, zero carbs. Like any other food they are neither good or bad for you they are just food and it's the overall diet and lifestyle (context) that matters.

Saturated fat is a big part of this. Larry will tell you saturated fat is always good for you and probably add two more paragraphs as well. Others can point to tons of research that show the opposite and saturated fat is bad. The truth is that it depends because context matters.

A person who is following the S.A.D., is overweight and gaining, and sitting behind a desk all day every day will not tolerate saturated fat in any quantity well. Bad things are going to happen but it's not the saturated fat it's the overall diet and lifestyle that you're putting saturated fat into.

A person who is very low carb and/or very active and in a caloric deficit or maintaining will be able to eat far more saturated fat without any detriment to their health.

Saturated fat is only ever good in practice in context. Quality of food is very important. Big difference between fat from CAFO meat and grass fed meat. Also if you are having meat and carbs together and insulin is up the fat is likely to be stored along with the carb calories. So grass fed bun less burger good, grass fed burger with bun, not nearly as good, CAFO burger with or without bun not good. All might have same sat fat.

Also too much protein bad. I find my body controls my sat fat intake nicely. But I could not eat unlimited bacon and be healthy.

Wannabe,

Yes I just googled grains are bad and that was it. It in fact took me many months to even know about the concept of grains are bad as I know it now. At first I just knew the carb part. But I kept searching reading, questioning, fascinated, by all of this. And yes I did google grains are good for you. But that is also what all of us have been told since we've been alive mostly isn't it? Ever heard of the food pyramid or my plate? Ever been to a doctors office? Ever heard of heart healthy? Every single day by government, food companies, and most doctors we are told grains are the base of the food pyramid. Whole grains are heart healthy. Or, maybe you hadn't noticed that? So are you serious about me googling grains are good? Not sure where you live but in the U.S. we are told this every day by government, doctors, insurance, employers, and when we were at school.

No I have read dozens of books, whole books, with hundreds of scientific citations each. I have listened to many Podcasts. I have attended conferences and listened to real life people and met with them and done Q and A.

I'm not saying you are completely wrong, in fact I think all your intutive eating could be and should be incredibly helpful and a possibly very important and benefical part of success. But not if you are ignoring the biological, real, unquenchable metabolic damage and metabolically induced fat storage and fat being walled off that happens to many people when they eat certain foods.

So if you don't let people know about the very, real physiological hunger many people experience on the standard diet, they may bash themselves for lack of control.

It isn't like in two generations we all of a sudden had a mass inability to control our hunger because of our minds. Obesity has skyrocketed in the last few decades. Are people changing that fast? No. But the foods they eat did. Get their metabolism fixed, their insulin fixed, get them to being a fat burner, and you know what? Things, including relationship to food gets fixed. Potatoes are very enjoyable to me still. But they don't' have their power over me any more because I simply am not hungry. I have them from time to time and that is. I am in control because my body is fixed, not because my 'mind' or 'relationship' to food is different.

And here is my journey with my beautiful 'girls' featured also. For those who don't know my story. It includes a link to one of my favorite grain articles. The same link is on the right under top posts. As I mention in the article, it took me some time to find out about grains.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/over-...#axzz3HaEbznCK

That was one of my favorite JohnP posts BTW. You also don't need a lot of added fat on this diet. Sure I have butter and coconut oil. But also getting fats in foods, nuts, meat, avocado, fish, etc.

Veggies are important for phytonutrients. So the caricature of bacon eating has evolved a lot since then. Still love me some good bacon, but more to it then that.

Most of the people I know are not excessive bacon eaters. More fat from lots of sources, no grains, whole foods, the bacon thing is about 40 years ago low carb stuff.

I'd say I eat less meat now than before. More veggies, no grains, more fat. Fewer calories overall as my hunger, body working at factory settings so to speak.

Hey, little FYI, you don't like Larry, IGNORE him. Some of us are interested in what he has to say.

And BTW, he's lost 115 lbs., so he must be onto something.

Frankly, IMO gluten is poison, wheat is crap and the SAD is BS. America went low fat in the late 70s and everyone started getting fat. NOT a coincidence in a lot of people's opinion.

And I'm surpassing it, lol. I run around 40-50 miles/week and will be increasing my mileage soon.

But I'm with Ian. I can feel the difference in my runs if I go low carb though I'm still experimenting on what works best for me including low carb/moderate protein/high fat experiments. Still, I do like my oats, beans and legumes and Scott Jurek is an inspiration - his book is simply awe-inspiring :)

For some people gluten really is poison, if they are celiac. But as fat was allegedly cut back in the 70's the consumption of sugar and processed foods skyrocketed. It's hard to make a correlation between health and fat since the ratio of macronutrients didn't stay the same. Some terrible nutritional changes were made in the 70's but all those changes worked in conjunction.

No, that's the first piece of misinformation you're operating under. There is a condition called "gluten intolerance". I WISH I was Celiac! Gluten intolerance SUCKS HARD! Celiac gives you diarrhea and you drop weight. Gluten intolerance can cause you to lose weight, but for most of us it causes an inflammatory condition where we have pain, weight GAIN, our immune system decides to start attacking various parts of our body and we suffer from a condition called "low motility". Look it up, I'm sure you have access to an internet search engine. My record is three weeks. Conventionally trained doctors, for the most part, overlook this condition. This took me, being aware of my body's needs and signals, using an elimination diet, figuring this out.

My arthritis, tendon and ligament degeneration that started when I was in my thirties that my doctor link to any cause, all I can think is that it's the inflammation throughout my body due to this autoimmune condition triggered by diet. My thyroid operates at a suboptimal level, again, it's one of the most delicate organs and one of the ones the body is first to attack.

Oh, and BTW,. tons of people are functioning with suboptimal thyroid levels, but conventional medicine literally SUCKS at diagnosing this condition. So there's bunches of fat people out there who have hormone problems. Be as mindful as you like about food but if you have an endocrine problem you are NEVER, EVER going to get your physiology in balance without addressing the hormone problems. Most women need some form of hormone replacement after age 40, but doctors are not taught to keep us healthy, they are taught that our hormones FAILING is a NATURAL state of affairs. If men went through the same transition they'd have fixed that s**t before the end of the last millenium.

Look, clearly your issues have nothing to do with what you eat but why you eat. Good for you, you've figured that out. But there is a whole bunch of us out there who have no emotional/psychological or whatever issues tied up in food, we're actually FAT and we can't figure out why. I piled on weight without changing my diet or activity levels! I've NEVER been an emotional eater, and not everyone is! The FOOD, however, changed and I suddenly, after being a healthy vegetarian, started piling on weight. Nobody TOLD me that wheat changed, not the FDA, not the EPA, not anyone. I was a healthy lacto/ovo vegetarian, eating a well balanced diet, and maintained my weight for over 10 years and then suddenly I'm gaining weight, having constant heartburn, breaking out with this weird acne, and can't ... um, go #2. GLUTEN! GLUTEN! GLUTEN! Took me nearly a year to figure it out! Doctors told me it WAS EMOTIONS/STRESS!

Primal eating isn't going to work for ANYBODY who hasn't separated their emotional emptiness from the emptiness of hunger, sorry. But when you know you're eating fine and still gaining weight a confirmation that conventional food, the GARBAGE that we're spoonfed as a culture, may be the source, not why you're eating but literally WHAT you're eating, even if you're being told it's healthy, is CRAP, is empowering.

Tons of people on this board have twisted up problems with feeding their bellies when it's their hearts that need nourishment, I get that. But others need to understand that, yeah, the food you're eating IS making you SICK, craving garbage, overeating. You're not overeating because you have emotional issues, you overeat because your body is not being nourished, whether you don't know how to nourish it, or whether what you consume is actually blocking the nourishment it needs. People need to have enough insight to figure out what's going on, but they can't make those decisions without having the knowledge and affirmation that their instincts might be right.

In the underlined sentence you flip flopped from being sympathetic to what drove me to overeat to rather implying that it's the food I ate. Either way, I've solved the problem of my overeating and can go on and have a meaningful healthy life.

I'm sorry to hear about your medical issues, that can't be fun. But I'm really glad that you don't have an emotional eating problem. You're at liberty to regulate your food without major road blocks from your mind. Emotional eating truly sucks and not only does it deteriorate your body it also deteriorates your self esteem and your mental health. I don't argue against the benefits of eliminating foods that make you sick, it's just that my body gets sick in a different way. I don't have any thyroid issues, hormone problems, allergies or insulin problems. I have no family history of these illnesses. My appetite is pretty normal, my cravings are not unmanageable and my indulgences are scarce. I've had a bar of dark chocolate in my pantry since the beginning of September and have not once craved any. If I was addicted to sugar or carbs or whatever then presumably I wouldn't be able to control myself.

What makes you believe that I'm not validating your diet? I never argue against anyone's diet. We all eat different things, even if we're following the same diet. If someone on the board is saying that their restrictive diet is leading them to binge, then yes that's really problematic and I don't want anyone thinking that it's because they don't try hard enough or because they're weak failures. There are real emotional and physiological reasons why a person can't stick to diets (and those things can be overcome, just not by dieting!) and if Larry is telling them that they're not trying hard enough, not sticking to the diet long enough, not putting in the then he's labeling them failures who don't care about themselves. That's my beef, it's personal and it has nothing to do with my view of any particular diet.