Talking about etiquette in the "ladies first" got me thinking about fat taboo.
I dearly wish that it weren't taboo to acknowledge fatness (without assigning horror, blame, evil.... to the word).
Hubby and I were recently eating in our favorite Thai restaurant owned by a Hmong family. It's a very small family place, and we've become very close to the family. Occasionally the owners' children are in the restaurant. They're all extremely well-behaved, and the four year old is an absolute doll. She's allowed (by mutual agreement between my husband and I and her parents) to come sit with us while we eat.
She's fascinated by my husband's freckles and the fact that I have only a few and she (and her family) have none.
The last time we were in, she was fascinated with our glasses, so I let her try on my glasses, and she started talking about all the ways people look different including belly size and such, and I was very matter-of-fact that "yes" my husband and I are very big people, and that she is a very little person, and that yes David is taller than her daddy, and I am rounder than her mommy, David needs a cane to help him walk (she loves to borrow his cane and walk around the restaurant)...
It dawned on me only after we left, that some people may consider the conversation "wrong" both in our allowing the child to ask such questions without reprimanding her or at least distracting her, but also in our straight-forward, happy-to-talk-about-it answers.
To me they were innocent and wonderful question, and I enjoyed talking to her about all the ways people are different and the same.
I believe her parents did overhear most of the discussion, and they didn't appear to be offended by any of it, so I suspect that the taboos about talking about a person's size might be different (or they just suspect we're a bit on the odd side, which we've already acknowledged).
I just wonder though if I made her life easier or harder by being so nonchalant and comfortable with talking about things that many people in our society consider taboo. Will someone freak out on the poor child if she asks them a similar question.
Not long ago a (very chubby) child in the Walmart made a comment to her sister that I had a big butt. The child was old enough to know this probably wasn't a nice thing to say and her mother made the girl apologize and I was mortified.
Not because of the comment, I'm not afraid or ashamed to talk about my being quite a bit different than the average person. Fat isn't a bad word to me, and I really am uncomfortable with children being punished for talking about it. Especially for a very chubby child, I think it sends a really messed up message. "Fat is really, really bad. So bad you're not allowed to even talk about it or acknowledge that it exists. If you are fat, you are therefore also very bad, and you can't talk about it."
As a chubby child by kindergarten, I remember being very confused about being fat. I knew I wasn't supposed to "notice" that anyone was fat but me. I wasn't supposed to say much about being fat, yet everyone in my family and even sometimes adult strangers were allowed to talk about MY fat (and they usually did it with sad or angry faces), but I wasn't allowed to talk about anyone else's fat or even my own in most situations. But then at 8 I was enrolled in Weight Watcher's meetings where everyone did talk about being fat (even women who had never had more than 10 lbs to lose). Talk about confused!
Sometimes I'm still confused. The taboos don't make any sense (but then again taboos almost never do).
Great post! It reminds me of a chapter in When Women Stop Hating Thier Bodies - a book I love!
I am sure someday, she will be "culturalized" probably by shaming her for discussing such things in another situation. And she will probably be confused. But, I have to think that because you took the time to address her questions, that your answers will stay with her and help. Much in the way that we discuss TMI things on this site because we aren't supposed to discuss such things in real life, the information I have learned here is invaluable, so too was the information you shared with her. She's lucky to have a friend like you!
It's a hard lesson to teach a child the difference between acknowledging someone who is different and pointing out that person's flaws. One day, I turned around in the store only to see my son standing next to a child in a wheelchair. He was just staring at her. I walked to them and spoke to the child in the wheelchair. When we were back in the car, I told him that it is never nice to stare at people, but it's always okay to talk to them.
Kaplods, I think that by allowing that child to be open and honest and not shaming her, you gave her a gift. I would love to know how others handle the situation.
I remember two incidents with one of my older cousins when I was a child - I was about 6, she was all grown up and married. Didn't see her much because she lived in New Orleans at that time, saw her once a year or so. She is a very tall woman, with a large frame even at her slimmest, 6'2" I think? One summer she came to visit with the family and I remember saying something about how tall she was as most of the women I saw regularly were in the 5'3-5" range, and she replied with "I am very tall, and I'm pregnant, not just fat." My aunt (her mother) chastised her for talking about being fat. The next year she had already had the baby obviously and we had another conversation where she said "This year I'm just fat, having lost the baby weight. Not pregnant again." Again, her mother chastised her for discussing being fat. Her mother who wasn't a slim woman by any means. Over the years since we have had several conversations about her weight as she has gone up and down. She always seems comfortable with herself.
I think about that a lot, and wonder if my cousin is more balanced than the rest of us because she could so easily discuss her size and seemed to accept herself just the way she was, however she was. I remember my aunt telling her not to talk about being fat, and I remember that my aunt was always very open about everything else. I found it odd that weight was taboo when she would lay just about anything else out there on the table for discussion.
I would like to think that having open discussions with you will help this little girl in the long run, that she will remember your frankness and see it as a better model than the shame and stigma associated with size discussions. I know that looking back on my cousin's openness has helped me as an adult.
I’m the same way with my son. Meaning that I try to address his questions openly and honestly. One thing that I love about my mom is that she always kind of smirks at his comments about her being fat…she knows how much he loves her and that he’s just making an observation from his childish perspective, so she doesn’t scold him or get her feelings all hurt. He’s just a kid, after all.
However, I think it can be tricky to teach a child to be open and frank and to make these observations and ask these questions while also teaching them to be sensitive to other people. While the comment from the child in store about you didn’t hurt your feelings, it probably would have hurt mine. I try to encourage my son to ask and say what he feels, but to also “be nice”. Kind of tricky!
I just try to encourage him to be empathetic. If he says something mean or even something that sounds kind of mean, I ask him if it would hurt his feelings if someone said it about him. It works pretty well…
( I always enjoy your posts by the way)
Last edited by ThicknPretty; 02-11-2010 at 03:25 PM.
I agree that fat or being fat shouldn't be so taboo. Being able to discuss differences, acknowledge differences and accepting the differences in individuals is what makes life beautiful. Understanding the intracies of cultures and individuals is what makes one truly global. Your conversation assisted the little girl in that.
BTW, for the last four years my kids (and WE) have spent Sunday afternoons going to Chinese school. The Chinese culture is definitely much more open than we are about many things--appearances and incomes for certain!
Last edited by Thighs Be Gone; 02-11-2010 at 03:27 PM.
I think that if questions come from the heart and are genuine most of us are happy to answer almost any question? Children are so unaffected and are seeking information to make sense of their world. They don't have preconceived notions that limit what they may ask.
It is a fascinating topic K.
Children's questions are always innocent. I would have had the very same response. All differences in people, whether weight, color, disability or whatever, need to be acknowledged matter-of-factly.
When my oldest daughter was 3, we moved to a new home that didn't have pre-installed telephone lines. To get a phone, we had to have someone from the telephone company come and put them in. My daughter had been born into a small-town community, and the installer was the first black person she had ever seen close up. Right there in front of the man, in his full hearing, she asked me, "Mommy, why is this man black?" I kept my answer simple: "God didn't make flowers all one color, and He didn't make people all one color either." This satisfied my daughter, and the installer seemed content also.
Another little girl, biracial, had it explained to her that her daddy was like coffee, and her mommy was like cream, and she herself was coffee with cream.
Another little girl, biracial, had it explained to her that her daddy was like coffee, and her mommy was like cream, and she herself was coffee with cream.
My nephews are biracial. My sister is very light skinned (Polish, italian, and german), and her husband very dark (African American, Native American {Cherokee I think} and Irish). "Their oldest when he was three said Mommy is white, Daddy is black, and I am brown." When his baby brother came along (lighter complected) he asked if his brother was white, and his parents explained a bit more about the difference between ethnicity and skin-color.
The odd, rude and just plain idiotic questions my sister and her husband have received about their three boys, is shocking. Each of the boys has a different hair texture, and a different shade of skin color. She's often asked if one or all of the boys are adopted, or some will assume (and dare to comment) that the boys must have different fathers (even when the father is standing there). What's so crazy to me is that all of the boys have a remarkable resemblance to both parents, just a different combinations of features. Ethnically, if you didn't know either parents, and didn't meet the boys together (because they so strongly resemble each other) a person might assume one was caucasian (probably mediteranian), one was bi-racial, and one was latino - but when you see the boys with their parents and they resemble both parents, I just don't get the confusion (or the boldness and stupidity of the questions).
Some people I think ask the question or make their comment before they realize it might be offensive (or they're from a culture or upbringing in which it isn't offensive) and I can cut people a LOT of slack in that reagard (who hasn't stuck their foot in their mouth a few times or offended someone and not understood why), but when a person's intent is so obviously meant to injure, and is not only about the children, but in front of them, it just makes me want to ring necks.
I getcha on the stupidity. I myself am having some fear going back into the job market. When I was still using a cane, I couldn't even get a job through a temp agency. It got so that whenever I heard anyone saying, "I'm sorry, we have no openings," my first thought became, "OK, which is it, my age, my weight, or my cane?" At least one of those two factors is gone now, but I'm still very nervous. I'm told that this part of the country does not discriminate against age and weight as much as they did back where I'm from, but there is something else I just recently made the connection about.
My maiden name is Cruz. And right there on my resume are the words, "Bilingual: English and Spanish."
Is there a chance someone maybe assumed I'm an illegal immigrant? Or is just plain racist against Hispanics? And I'm not even Hispanic; my maiden name is a re-spelling of what was first Crews, then later Cruse, and finally Cruz. (I did marry a Hispanic, though, and my daughters and grandson also have Spanish last names.)
Similarly, I was once treated rudely by a man who obviously had made up his mind in advance I was not going to be accepted. I didn't pass his tests, for reasons I didn't understand. I could tell from the getgo that he didn't want to work with me, and I was puzzled by his attitude until the lady who had accompanied me explained. You see, she was a very helpful, motherly, and friendly woman that even people older than she was herself addressed as "Mom." I hadn't seen the man's face, but *she* saw him have to scrape his eyebrows off the ceiling when I called a black woman "Mom." So here we have me as the victim of anti-black racism, and I'm not black either!
Some people can be so stupid.
Last edited by LovebirdsFlying; 02-12-2010 at 10:33 PM.
Wow, I had no idea I ever said that! I can say this though, my mother (LovebirdsFlying) raised me VERY specifically to notice, and enjoy differences in people, but not to judge them for said difference. This includes ALL the EO tabs, and I still stick with it.
I have experienced more racism as a White-LOOKING part Hispanic than anything else. Even though I get very dark in the summer (have had people walk up to me and ask questions in Spanish), most of the time I appear pure caucasoid, and get very bad reactions when I claim my heritage.
You know, I had a very good day a couple of weeks ago. I had lost around 20 lbs, and was in a new, very cute out-fit when I walked past a couple of 5-6 yr. olds. One of them turned to the other and said "Now there is a pretty lady!" and the older one said "(child's name) Your very nice!" clearly telling the other child she shouldn't have said that about me. I chose to take the original unfettered compliment for what it was, and I do hope the first little girl doesn't pick up the prejudice that the older one had obviously learned from her elders.
You know, I had a very good day a couple of weeks ago. I had lost around 20 lbs, and was in a new, very cute out-fit when I walked past a couple of 5-6 yr. olds. One of them turned to the other and said "Now there is a pretty lady!" and the older one said "(child's name) Your very nice!" clearly telling the other child she shouldn't have said that about me. I chose to take the original unfettered compliment for what it was, and I do hope the first little girl doesn't pick up the prejudice that the older one had obviously learned from her elders.
Meaning that the older child was telling the younger one she was being overly generous for saying you're a pretty lady? Well, you ARE one! (And I say that, no matter how many people insist that you look just like me--which you do. ) But prejudice of several kinds is, unfortunately, a family legacy I did my best to end with your generation. I hope I've succeeded.
My mind, right now, is going back to when I was eleven years old and we had a neighbor who was heavy. (I might have told this story before, but it bears repeating. And I'll add that although I *remember* this neighbor as being a huge, misshapen, grotesquely fat woman, I'll be willing to bet that she was in reality not much bigger then than I am now. If she was any bigger at all. I'd venture to guess she was probably a modern size 28. I was simply *trained* to think of her as I did.)
Our neighbor had three small children. One hot summer day, we saw her in her front yard, playing with them in their kiddie pool as any good mother would do. She had her swimsuit on--the standard-issue solid black polyester maillot that plus-size women were limited to in those days. My mother was repulsed. She didn't look at that scene and see a loving mother spending time with her children. All she saw was a big fat woman with the audacity to be seen in a swimsuit. "Isn't that disgusting?" she asked me. "Would you go outside in a swimsuit if you were that big?" At the time I agreed with her. I was a kid; what was I going to do? Argue? Today I say, of course I would! That lady had every right to be in her own yard, with her own children, wearing a swimsuit. As long as she was covered within the confines of the law, she was doing nothing wrong. And, given the fact that quality family time makes for good memories, she was doing a lot right!
My mother can pretend all she wants to that she taught us to be open-minded and respectful of others. The truth is, she was openly rude to our neighbor, and encouraged us to behave the same way. Maybe not directly to our neighbor's face, but Mom laughed at every one of our "fat woman next door" jokes, and made plenty of them herself.
Today I wonder if being the same size myself, or at least close to it, is exactly what I deserve for having made fun of that woman.
Taboo
) But prejudice of several kinds is, unfortunately, a family legacy I did my best to end with your generation. I hope I've succeeded.
