But our weight IS something we can control, isn't it? Well yes, it is. We DO choose to be fat. No one forces that food into our mouths. It's our decision.

Of course there are some who require certain medications and the such that prevents weight loss or packs on pounds, but other than that, we do get to decide if we are fat or not.

I'm not saying society should look down upon us for it, but it IS something we can control. And I'm not saying because it is our choice, that we don't need special help with it.

And it's great to hear that there are some schools who are teaching about good nutrition. I wish is were more widespread though

Yes and no. We DO chose to put the food in our mouths. But I don't think it is always so simple. I think that it is looked at as solely a choice. That we pick up our forks and eat crap and chose to be fat. But there are so many other factors that come into it other than that choice. yes - medications, metabolic disorders - but I am thinking things like: not knowing how to eat healthy, not understanding how to read labels, not understanding what role exercise plays, people who use food as a coping mechanism, etc.

I think a lot is in our control. I think that once you dig the hole and become obese, it is a HARD hole to dig yourself out of and STAY out of. And I think that people who haven't been through it don't realize that it isn't so simple as to wake up one day and say "gee! I think I will eat less and exercise more!" Society looks down on people. Obesity is taught to be somethign ashamed of. I don't think that is helpful at all. I think we all just need some help = whether it is knowledge or therapy or a support network or whatever.

Am I making any sense? Lol! I guess I feel it is a lot like the drug addict choosing to be addicted... yeah, s/he chose to do drugs, but there is more that comes into play other than simply chosing to stop. Though - I guess for some people it is.

This is a complicated topic. Could it be that we are looking for excuses? Or reasons?

I always figured it was my fault I got fat. I did eat too much. I maybe am older than everyone else here at 3fc, but even in my era I learned about the food groups, and what I should be eating. If I chose to eat more than I should, I knew that I would get fat, and I did.

I can't blame my parents, they taught me well. I can't blame the schools I attended, they taught me well. I have always been able to understand the food groups, and what a calorie is, and the importance of exercise, and all that good stuff.

I just enjoyed eating, and I ate too much food. So I got fat. When I got around to it I cleaned up my act and got my weight under control.

I guess it is complicated for some people, but for me it was rather simple - I got fat because I ate too much, and I have no one to blame but myself.

I really don't want to get into this too much here, as it is veering off the original topic.

People turn to food food for different reasons, but it is still their choice to turn to it.

I think that denying that it is our choice is a dangerous thing. You're taking away the power and that's debilitating. If you say that we can't control it, that means it's out of our hands and that there's nothing we can do about it. And that's false. And nothing could be further from the truth. I really did beleive that I had no choice for all those years and that's why I barely even attempted to lose the weight. Once I woke up and realized that it was my choice and I was the one choosing it, well that's very empowering. And that's when I was able to make the change.

So I think a major first step is to acknowledge that being fat is a choice and therefore losing weight is a choice. We don't have to be fat if we don't want to be. It is within our power. We are all capable of it. That's exciting if you ask me; to know that it is possible. That is something I always look to get across to others.

Thanks so much to everyone participating in this topic, I really don't feel that it has gotten off track. Anything that makes us stop, question, and think is a good thing.

I am firmly in the camp that says I'm fat because of my poor choices. Yes, there are causes that led me to have issues with food, which led to obesity. Just like there were causes that led me to be addicted to drugs for years and years (Five years clean from all that nonsense!)

The simple fact is that I let food control me and it is an ongoing battle to take that control from food and put it where it belongs. With me! In TOPS we open our meetings with a simple pledge that starts out by saying, "I am an intelligent person, I will control my emotions and not let my emotions control me."

I don't need to ask an obesity expert what foods to eat, or how many calories to consume, or if exercise is a good idea. I know what to do. I just need to get out of my hole and do it! And I am...one step and one day at a time.

I think on Saturday I will go with a list of questions to ask this "expert" and the first question (thanks to SCraver) will be how do I get my big butt out of this hole that I've dug and start living my life?

I understand what you are saying, and largely agree, but it's important to remember that just because it's under their control doesn't mean fat people don't deserve help or advice.

I stayed fat because I was ignorant:

I didn't know I could lose weight on 1800 or even 2000 calories. I thought anything over 1200 was hopelessly weak and indulgent. I did SO MANY 1200 calories crash-and-burns over the years.

I didn't know there was any point in very moderate exercise. I thought if you weren't staying in your target heart range for 20 full minutes, the whole thing was pointless.

I didn't know that a lower-carb diet would keep me full longer and lead to less hunger overall.

I didn't know that if I got my PCOS under control, the raging, raging hunger would largely go away--being skinny didn't mean living with that hunger for life.

I made a lot of poor choices, but some of them--some very significant ones--were out of ignorance, not out of weakness. And I'm pretty damn smart and well educated. People say "It's their choice" but what they mean is "So they must be lazy good for nothings who shouldn't be taken seriously."

I'm a teacher. Let's say I have two students--one is a from a culture that doesn't encourage girls to go pursue any sort of education or career, and gets no support, let alone encouragement, when she wants to go to college. The other is from an upper-middle class family, parents and all 4 grandparents went to college, who has listened to talk about "when you are in college" since the first day of kindergarten. Now, both those kids have control over their futures, both those kids will make the choice to end up where they end up, but it'd be foolish to say those choices are equally simple for them. Now, when I am talking to the girl who doesn't get encouragement at home, I am going to tell her it's up to her, it's her choice, she has control--but in the back of my mind, I'm going to admit that she's got larger challenges to overcome than the other kid. Doesn't mean she can't over come them, but it'd be silly to deny they exist, and I am sure as **** not going to decide she must be weak or sad or lazy if she doesn't make it as far as the other kid does.

In the same way, different people face different challenges when it comes to weight management. It's important, for me, to realize it's under my control, but I am not going to judge someone else if they haven't been able to exercise that same control. Their challenges may well be greater than mine.

Oh my goodness. Of course overweight people deserve help, advice, support, guidance. 1000% so, which is what I tried to state (obviously not very well ) in my original post on this subject:

I feel terrible that you thought I was trying to say that. Terrible. No, nothing could be further from the truth. Which is why I probably spend so much time on this website, hoping that someone will pick up something of use that comes out of my meanderings...

I understood what you meant, and agreed. I was just pointing out why people are so quick to disavow control--there are so many jerks out there that do make the leap from "you have control" to "therefore fatties deserve nothing but scorn".

I used to really share this attitude toward myself--my self-scorn was so great that I didn't research weight loss the way I research everything else in my life because I equated research with "making excuses", and "justifying being a lazy fat***". I never felt that way about other people, but towards myself I bought into the idea that losing weight was easy and simple (just eat less, duh) and never approached it in a rational manner. If I wasn't finding it easy, it was because I was weak and pathetic and I needed to toughen up.

ETA: In case it isn't clear, I was just using your remarks a springboard to talk about a wider problem in weight loss. I think we more or less agree on the issue.

I just had to quote this whole passage. I think I'm just as glad there isn't a medical specialty dealing with obesity yet (I expect it will be called "bariatrics" once there is one) because there's so much ignorance and well-meaning bad advice around. I trust my own experience over anything a so-called medical professional would tell me about weight loss at this point.

I wonder how many thousands or millions of women have gotten more and more obese because they were trying to be "good" and eat low-fat diets that might as well have been poison if they were insulin resistant. They would get hungry and discouraged and finally be unable to handle the constant hunger. Which is what happened to me, over and over again.

It's so easy to blame people for eating too much and not exercising enough, but it just isn't nearly so simple.

We speak of medical doctors and all, obesity experts, but the truth is, I don't know if even they could help some of us. Because it isn't all that simple. There is no one fix-it solution for everyone. There is no one across the board, this is the right way to do it. It's not just eat this and don't eat that. It's isn't just get your butt off the couch. If only it were that simple. If only it were.

I came up with what I think is a brilliant, brilliant plan for MYSELF. My big key non-negotiable factors:

- I could never, ever be hungry. Never. My solution - eat frequently and make every bite going down my throat a filling, satiating one. Therefore I had to eat ZERO empty calorie foods. I MUST feel as if I'm eaten.
-The food that I'm eating can't keep me clamoring for more of it. It can't bring on this "can't shove it in my mouth fast enough" feeling that I get with soooo many foods such as crackers, cereal, cookies, ice cream, rice, breads, etc. My solution - avoid them at all costs. I had a hard time (impossible) stopping to eat certain foods once I started. My solution -don't start.
-Volume. I like a LOT of food to eat. My solution - eat large quantities of lower calorie foods. (Also helps with the hunger). So I eat piles and piles of veggies. Much more than the average person and much more most likely than the average *dieter*.
-I have no intuitive eating button. It's missing. I need something to tell me to stop eating, something to keep me in check, something to tell me THIS is your proper portion. My solution - calorie counting. It's built in accountability and FORCED portion control.
-I MUST derive pleasure from the foods that I'm eating. I need to enjoy the heck out of it. My solution - eat tasty, tasty, mouth watering foods. Hence the reason I spend sooo much time in the kitchen preparing fabulous meals and snacks.

On top of all these non-negotiables, I needed rules. I had to set boundaries, limits. I had to learn skills and strategies. I relied on mantras and self-talk. Still do. I made daily weighing and recording a ritual. I planned out each and every bite that was to go in my mouth in advance. I set mini-goals for myself. I gave myself a *prize* after each 10 lbs lost. I needed to think outside of the box. I had to be super creative. I found 3fc. I decided to look for the joy in this and not the dread. These are all things I needed to search for/'seek out/discover for MYSELF.

No doctor in the world will tell you these things. But I will. I'm an obesity *expert,* (and there are many more *experts* right here at 3FC.) a super morbid obesity *expert* at that, or a losing weight *expert* and keeping it off *expert* - for me. Like Meg says, we are all laboratories of one.

I'm not sure if there's a doctor in the world who could have helped me.

And then there's another thing. If you would have told me, heck if I would have told me, to do all these things earlier, quite frankly, I'm not positive I would have listened to me.

It wasn't until I made the absolute decision to lose the weight "NO MATTER WHAT", that I really delved and methodically sat down and figured out what I needed to MAKE it happen. Because at that point I was WILLING to do whatever was necessary to ENSURE that it would happen. I was willing to make the changes. And I wasn't going to stop until it was done. No. Matter. What. Not sure if I was willing early. I'm just not sure.

You need WILLINGNESS. You need the willingness to make the change and stick it out and work past the uncomfortable moments of getting rid of bad habits and establishing new ones.

You also must come to the realization that *it* is worthy of all the time, effort and *work* that needs to be put into it. You need to make it a number one priority.

A doctor, nor an obesity expert can't give you these things. He can't write a prescription for it. You can't bottle it and sell it. You must get it from within.

Speaking of doctors, I remember (quite clearly) taking my daughter to the pediatrician several years ago. She had this strange cough and a low grade fever. He said it was just a virus. But the weird cough persisted and so did the low grade fever. I took her back to the doctor again. It's just a virus, wait it out, I was told again. I know my child better than any doctor. SOMETHING was not right here. This was no virus. I persisted and insisted on a chest x-ray. Turns out she had pneumonia. My point is, you can't even rely on the medical profession. You've got to rely on yourself. You've got to take matters into your own hands some times. You hear of situations of missed diagnoses all the time. All the time. You have got to fight for yourself. You've got to be on top of it. You, you and you.

I mean know disrespect to anyone, anywhere. But if you're ignorant (as I was) on what foods to eat and what foods not to eat - RESEARCH the heck out of it. Make it your business to find what works for yourself and what doesn't. Be persistent. Don't stop till you discover it. Don't take no for an answer. Require more from yourself. Raise your standards. Don't take it another second. Experiment. Try this, try that. Be willing to go the extra mile. No BS. No excuses. Be brutally honest. Don't tolerate it from yourself. Make it your job, your mission. Don't leave it to others. It's too important. You've got to rely on number one here - yourself. No. one. else.

You want out of the hole, dig yourself out. I distinctly remember thinking this, it is SO clear to me, from all those years ago. "I got myself into this mess, I will have to be the one to get myself out of the mess".

A common, old expression comes to mind - "If you want something done right, do it yourself."

That's the point, though, isn't it? The advice you get now from doctors is total crap because they haven't actually, you know, studied weight loss. Specialists, who spend a couple years in an intensive residency program where they read all the literature out there and worked with other specialists, would develop much better advice than what we get today. Your GP would give you lousy advice about fighting cancer, too, but that doesn't mean an oncologist would give you the same advice.

There's no one fix-it solution for cancer, either, or schizophrenia, or infertility, or cirrhosis, or AIDS. And, of course, none of these conditions can be successfully treated if the patient isn't willing to put in hard work and contribute to their own care. But a really, really smart doctor can sure help.

Of course the patient must be willing to do the work, must be willing to make the changes, but if, once you reach that point you can get good advice, that will sure smooth the way. It's like mental illness: no one successfully treats mental illness without huge amounts of private soul searching and hard work, but that doesn't mean a good psychologist and/or psychiatrist is useless.

Of course you can't just blindly trust your doctor. I'm in the middle of infertility treatments right now, and you can bet your a** I've researched every step of the process. I've certainly helped shape my treatment and never blindly trusted anything the doctor has told me. That said, having a specialist doctor has sure as **** been essential in the process.

I mean, I imagine a could replace the transmission in my car if I absolutely had to. I'd have to buy a lot of tools, make a lot of expensive mistakes, and it would probably take me a very long time to do it, but I'm reasonable intelligent and capable, so I'd probably be able to get it done eventually. But the process would go a **** of a lot smoother if I had someone who replaces transmissions every single day standing over my shoulder and giving me advice--or even just available for me to call and ask questions.

My question would be about compulsory nutrition classes in schools, from kindergarten onwards.

imho obesity is largely (pun intended) personal consumption choices. That I chose to medicate my feelings and mental states by over-consuming, was also my choice. Not necessarily fault, definitely needing help and support, but still, my choice.

If I'd known from early childhood onwards the effect of bad nutritional choices, the positive benefit of good nutritional choices, I Might Not have chosen to consume what I did. I would no more dream of medicating my issues with over-use of alchohol, or recreational drugs than fly in the air, because I knew the problems associated with them.

And if it's a real expert, can they suggest how to make those kind of lessons compulsory without stigmatizing those who're already fat when they get there?

I'm an addict. Yes, I choose to overeat, but I don't want to. I can't begin to tell you the number of times that I've committed to the process and lasted only 2-3 weeks. I need some kind of help to work through the mental processes, but I can't find anyone in my area who has a clue. I would love for medical science to take this addiction seriously. Until then, I just keep trying and hoping to one day get it right.

I'm not saying to not seek outside help. Absolutely not. Find whatever it is YOU need to get the job done. Whether it's a nutritionist, WW meetings, a psychologist, a any one or anything.

The difference is, is that your are the vehicle here. You are the transmission. And you are not a machine. You're a whole lot more complicated. You're a human being.

For right now, barring WLS, there is no medical intervention. There is no surgery to do on the brain that would take care of this. There is no pill. There is no magical solution. Yes, it would be nice if there was, but I'm not sure if there ever will be.

It would be great to call someone, but really, what could they tell you. "Get out of the kitchen, take a walk, eat a yogurt, take a hot bath, drink some tea, do some mediation, call your best friend". And I believe that is available if you desire it, to some extent at least.

I too am/was/am an addict. But again, if you're not finding the *right* person to help/guide you, I urge you to look within yourself, because sometimes (often?) that's the only person that can help you.

Yes! Keep trying. Don't stop. And each time, push yourself a little bit more. Just a little bit harder and further than the time before.