[rockinrobin]

Originally Posted by kaplods

However, I learned by months of food journals, that I lose more weight on 1800 calories of low carb than on 1800 calories of high carb. I'm also less hungry so calorie restriction is easier, and have more energy so exercise and daily activity is easier.

Aha! So you see, you had to discover this on your own. You took matters into your own hands. Thankfully.

And that's why, while it is "just lifestyle," it's necessary to find ways to make the lifestyle more acheivable.

Exactly. EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US has to find the ways to make this lifestyle more achievable for ourselves. We couldn't possibly leave this up to any one else. It's too individual.

I can't fully describe what it was like before I found the hormonal and carbohydrate connection

But you did find it. (yay!) It was your doing. You kept on delving and searching. Not leaving anything as vital up to any one but you.


We do need the information on why weight loss is so hard, in order to make it easier. Because while "exercise more and eat less," is the answer, making it more acheiveable is going to be the key to more people achieving it.

But it's up to us to decide what will make it more achievable to each of us, as individuals, as there is not one "correct" method.

To lose weight, a person has to unlearn much of what they didn't even know they were taught, and needs to be able to think and act outside of the box, and that's often very difficult, because more often than not, they aren't even aware of the box.

Difficult, perhaps. Doable, definitely. I firmly believe that just because something is hard, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to master it, it just means we should try HARDER. A favorite quote comes to mind, "If we would only recognize that life is hard, things would be much easier."

And truth be known, if someone would have sat me down and told me, "Robin, you need to do this and this and this and you will lose weight, permanently", and that this and this and this is EXACTLY what I am doing right now - it most likely wouldn't have "worked". Because the best plan out there for each of us, whatever that may be, won't "work" unless we CHOOSE to make it work. And quite honestly, I'm not sure I was willing to make the choices that were necessary to "make it work", until I actually did it. Kind of like which came first - the chicken or the egg?

[CountingDown]

Originally Posted by rockinrobin

And truth be known, if someone would have sat me down and told me, "Robin, you need to do this and this and this and you will lose weight, permanently", and that this and this and this is EXACTLY what I am doing right now - it most likely wouldn't have "worked". Because the best plan out there for each of us, whatever that may be, won't "work" unless we CHOOSE to make it work. And quite honestly, I'm not sure I was willing to make the choices that were necessary to "make it work", until I actually did it. Kind of like which came first - the chicken or the egg?

Robin, you are so right! The journey itself is important. Losing weight is so complex that I'm not sure that my current plan would have worked for me when I started. As my body changed and as my lifestyle changed, so did my plan.

I also believe that body, mind, and spirit affect our weight loss. The same plan works differently for me depending upon where my mind and spirit are at. If I am stressed, for example, I will lose weight differently than if I am more "balanced".

Colleen is right - it isn't a simple thing. I am still tweaking things as I go, weight loss/maintenance is a dynamic rather than static process.

[kaplods]

kaplods: I can't fully describe what it was like before I found the hormonal and carbohydrate connection

rockinrobin

But you did find it. (yay!) It was your doing. You kept on delving and searching. Not leaving anything as vital up to any one but you.
________________________________________

I wish I could say this was true. The fact is that about a decade ago, I stopped trying, because I was wearing myself out, and dieting was only making me fatter, because I couldn't sustain the "willpower" alone. I vowed never to diet again, and my weight stabilized. It was very high, but I learned that when I didn't starve myself, the binging completely disappeared without any effort on my part. Gone was the temptation to eat until I was uncomfortable.

I didn't delve or search to find my current plan - I tripped over it, or more accurately, it fell on me. I had always asked doctors about the period skipping bc, but was always discouraged. It never dawned on my to go against my doctor's recommendations. It wasn't until I got very ill and was bounced from specialist to specialist trying to sort it all out, that I realized that if I wanted to improve my health, I had to become my own doctor first. I saw that it would almost be easier to self-teach myself than to find doctors able to figure it out - especially in the 10 minute or less allotted to the average medical appointment in the modern medical system.

When I was diagnosed with sleep apnea, the pulmonologist told me that I might lose some weight without trying (Sure it will, I thought sarcastically).

Well, in essence that's what happened. I lost at least 20 lbs without trying. They just fell off, and I'm not even sure when because at the time I didn't have a scale and was only weighed at doctor's appointments every 4 months.

When my doctor recommended the low carb eating, I thought he was nuts (after all it's still "common knowledge" that low carb eating is horrendously unhealthy and evil). Even after a second opinion from a doctor who had lost nearly 100 lbs herself on a modified Atkins, I was still skeptical.
_____________________

I had been asking doctors about this particular bc change since my mid- twenties, and I had never gotten a positive response. I was always discouraged, and sometimes even told that it would make my PMS (which was so severe, it really was PMDD) worse! I didn't know that this was under my control, I didn't know that I could demand that I be allowed to try, and quite frankly, I respected their professional medical opinion (or I wouldn't have kept them as my primary care physicians).

Right now, trial and error is all we've got. But, maybe with better research, eventually there will be diagnostic tools that will help a person shortcut some of the trial and error, and predict which efforts are most likely to succeed.

Of course a person has to be willing to make changes, but the person also has to have access to good and correct information. If this has been so difficult for me, with all of my natural self-confidence and all of the effort and mind power that I devoted to it - I can't expect someone who is poor, uneducted, and lacking in self-confidence and social skills to have a chance. If it took me 37 years to figure this out, and 37 years to get the cooperation from medical professionals, what chance does someone without all of my advantages have?

[CountingDown]

Originally Posted by kaplods

Right now, trial and error is all we've got. But, maybe with better research, eventually there will be diagnostic tools that will help a person shortcut some of the trial and error, and predict which efforts are most likely to succeed.

If it took me 37 years to figure this out, and 37 years to get the cooperation from medical professionals, what chance does someone without all of my advantages have?

LOL - it took me almost 50 years! I think that is why 3FC is such a wonderful resource for many of us. It gives us information regarding what is working for others. I think 3FC IS that shortcut I needed to help me find a way of eating that would work for me.

Reading of your experience, undoubtedly has helped many others with similar health issues. You have illuminated those shortcuts that others may wish to take.

Our maintainers did that for me. Reading the posts of our maintainers put me on the right path to begin this journey. While the road I am traveling isn't the same as theirs, I am heading in the same general direction. They were able to point out pitfalls, roadblocks and even jewels along the way.

[Glory87]

Originally Posted by rockinrobin

And truth be known, if someone would have sat me down and told me, "Robin, you need to do this and this and this and you will lose weight, permanently", and that this and this and this is EXACTLY what I am doing right now - it most likely wouldn't have "worked". Because the best plan out there for each of us, whatever that may be, won't "work" unless we CHOOSE to make it work. And quite honestly, I'm not sure I was willing to make the choices that were necessary to "make it work", until I actually did it. Kind of like which came first - the chicken or the egg?

I agree. If future me had been able to sit down with 20 year old me, who was developing a weight problem and said "hey, this is what you need to do and it's pretty easy, actually" 20 year old me would have said NO WAY. I don't think I would have been ready. Give up fast food? Cook all the time? Pack lunches? Cut back on drinking? Bor-ing and way too much work.

[rockinrobin]

Originally Posted by Glory87

I agree. If future me had been able to sit down with 20 year old me, who was developing a weight problem and said "hey, this is what you need to do and it's pretty easy, actually" 20 year old me would have said NO WAY. I don't think I would have been ready. Give up fast food? Cook all the time? Pack lunches? Cut back on drinking? Bor-ing and way too much work.

And for me, I had "heard" all about the folks who successfully lost weight eliminating the "white stuff" - the bread, pasta, sugar, rice, etc.... I heard about it, but thought - "NO WAY, I'm doomed, I can't live without it, I'm just not willing to do that." Until of course many more years of misery took place and I had had enough and then I WAS willing to do so. That and all the other things Glory mentions. Willingness. Ummm, have I ever mentioned I believe that is key?

[kaplods]

Originally Posted by CountingDown

LOL - it took me almost 50 years! I think that is why 3FC is such a wonderful resource for many of us. It gives us information regarding what is working for others. I think 3FC IS that shortcut I needed to help me find a way of eating that would work for me.

YES! I so agree. If I had access to a network of support and information like 3FC at any point before I turned 30 - I firmly believe that currently I would weigh at least 100 lbs lighter than I do now, and probably wouldn't have developed at least half of the health issues I have now.

Originally Posted by CountingDown

Reading of your experience, undoubtedly has helped many others with similar health issues. You have illuminated those shortcuts that others may wish to take.

I hope so, because I'd love to be able to give a little back of what being here has given me. I don't think I would have had the courage to try low-carb dieting (because it's so "bad") without reading all of the positive experiences some people here have had with it.

[kiramira]

Thanks, rockinrobin. Like I said, your journey and those of the maintainers have shown that a person needs to assume responsibility for their eating and lifestyle behaviors if one is to tackle a weight issue. It isn't up to an external source, be it medical nor governmental, to dictate what choices an individual makes. Likewise, one can't place the "blame" at external sources for one's weight issues. One needs to find a program that suits one's lifestyle and make it work. And the key is CHOICE and DEDICATION.

Kira

[junebug41]

Originally Posted by kiramira

Thanks, rockinrobin. Like I said, your journey and those of the maintainers have shown that a person needs to assume responsibility for their eating and lifestyle behaviors if one is to tackle a weight issue. It isn't up to an external source, be it medical nor governmental, to dictate what choices an individual makes. Likewise, one can't place the "blame" at external sources for one's weight issues. One needs to find a program that suits one's lifestyle and make it work. And the key is CHOICE and DEDICATION.

Kira

You're right, it's not. However, as an overweight child of the 90's I can't begin to explain what kind of shock to my system it was when I "woke up" and realized what my parents must have been fighting as far as external sources were concerned. It very much is an uphill battle (I mean, we have a Diary Council. Why on earth to we need a Dairy Council or any other food lobby??). My parents did their very best to instill healthy habits in me and eventually they did prevail. Thank God it was before a heart attack, diabetes, etc... others aren't so lucky.

And this isn't something that has become easier- perhaps only more manageable with knowledge and experience. There have been plenty of instances (and I'm sure there are maintainer posts that support this) where I'm fighting with all I have against what I *know* is good for *me* and what society wants me to consume. Sometimes I think our identities are strongly represented by food. Our society certainly is.

I also echo every bit of Glory87's post earlier re: In Defense of Food. I also recommend the China Study if you've never checked it out.

... it really isn't about blaming anyone (and I'm sure any maintainer would agree), but asking for a little responsibility and accountability- as I myself have tried to embrace- isn't a preposterous idea, IMHO.

Edit: and on the topic of CHOICE and DEDICATION, I think it's a great catch phrase and sumises the actions of many maintainers here on 3FC, but I think that is oversimplifying what our society is really up against. I have peers that were raised on the quintessential SAD and their struggle for health (and weightloss) presents issues very different than mine.

My choices were fairly easy because I had access to them. I was raised not only with limited bad choices, but a wide variety of good ones. I look around at my society and I don't see choices for a lot of people. It's hard to realize your own choices when you are simply unaware you have them. Some folks can teach themselves. Some folks (like me) were taught by their parents. Many folks have to learn for themselves and it's a very confusing process when your food pyramid is dominated by special interests and food lobbies. I think it kind of simplifies the struggle to say that most people are simply making the wrong choice when I think a lot of people just haven't reached that point of information and education about what exactly they are eating.

[rockinrobin]

Originally Posted by kiramira

Thanks, rockinrobin. Like I said, your journey and those of the maintainers have shown that a person needs to assume responsibility for their eating and lifestyle behaviors if one is to tackle a weight issue. It isn't up to an external source, be it medical nor governmental, to dictate what choices an individual makes. Likewise, one can't place the "blame" at external sources for one's weight issues. One needs to find a program that suits one's lifestyle and make it work. And the key is CHOICE and DEDICATION.

Yes,I do agree - bottom - bottom line - it's up to US, each and every one of us to take responsibility for our own health. Be our own advocate. Find, seek, hunt, probe - whatever it takes.

And this isn't something that has become easier- perhaps only more manageable with knowledge and experience. There have been plenty of instances (and I'm sure there are maintainer posts that support this) where I'm fighting with all I have against what I *know* is good for *me* and what society wants me to consume.

On one hand it is easier, as these habits are so automatic to me. Though of course I struggle (plenty at times) with doing the "right" thing, even though I knew FULL WELL what the right thing is. Which really supports the claim that it all comes down to choice. I can't let what "society" wants interfere with what I want. Of course, this was 20+ years in the making for me.

[kiramira]

I absolutely understand what you are saying, Ms Junebug and Ms kaplods, but respectfully, to use a perhaps overworked phrase: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". You know, when someone gets a speeding ticket and says, well, I'm NEW to town, I didn't KNOW there was a speed limit, noone told me there was a speed limit here, my passenger doesn't have a license so I had no guidance, I was going as fast as everyone else, there should be bigger signs, I forgot my glasses, it was night time, my parents never obeyed the speed limit so I have no example to follow, and so on.

And how I relate this phrase to weight loss is that many people come from areas and places where choices are limited either by circumstance or habit or lack of education. And a person will either recognize that they need to get more education in certain areas in order to succeed or they won't. But agonizing about the "whys" and "who is responsible" is energy wasted, IMHO.

And isn't it just possible that the debate about who and why and how come is really just obscuring the essential truth of the matter? We can pay homage to those influences that we have had and our particular makeup and do our best to understand, but perhaps effort towards figuring out how to solve the problem for ourselves may be time well spent? If, of course, one truly wishes to address the situation. Some may not want to, and of course, that choice is respected by yours truly UNTIL the externalization of the issue occurs.

I'm not going to post more on this (and a great cheer goes up amongst the crowd!!! hahahaha!!!). I just really get frustrated when I read threads like this. I too have a bad family history. I have medical conditions and take meds that enhance weight gain. I had no food choices growing up. I never even got an allowance, but I'll tell you that any change I found in the sofa was funnelled directly into our school's vending machine! I was teased in gym class. I get this. BUT I have chosen to change my life and have picked a plan that is working for me and my lifestyle. I choose not to blame my parents -- they did the best they could given the circumstances of the economy and education. I choose not to waste my precious time worrying about dairy lobby groups and what their effects have been on me when I was six. I choose not to line the pockets of diet book authors or investigative authors about the diet and food industries any more.

Instead, I choose to volunteer and financially support sports teams for underprivileged children in my community. I choose to volunteer for our local breakfast program so that children get a fighting chance at nutritious choices once a day. I choose to provide gardening experience and advice to local community vegetable gardens. I choose to travel to schools to discuss vegetable growing from seeds and to help them start home gardens. Sometimes the children will educate the parents!!! And if we ALL did a little bit of this, we can help our communities become healthier and stronger. If we all do just a little bit, wouldn't this be more effective for our society as a whole with respect to obesity than lining the pockets of yet another diet expert?

I choose to exercise my free will and make choices for me and for my body despite what manufacturers and marketers and the government and lobbyists may want me to make. I choose to focus on those habits that are IMHO healthful for me. Trust me, if I can do this, so can ANYONE.

And I get so frustrated when people overindulge and see the consequences of their choices and then act like somebody cut the brakelines on their car!


And there are those who will continue the struggle to understand WHY they have a weight issue and to assess responsibility, and I respect that. And I truly want success for everyone here. But I just can't agree that anyone other than ones'self is responsible for one's weight issue. And I absolutely believe that change is within everyone's grasp and that we ALL can do it, with dedication, self-forgiveness, and perserverance.

'Nuf said!

Thanks for listening and allowing me to vent!

Kira

[Ija]

Originally Posted by junebug41

Edit: and on the topic of CHOICE and DEDICATION, I think it's a great catch phrase and sumises the actions of many maintainers here on 3FC, but I think that is oversimplifying what our society is really up against.

I agree with this 100%. It's easy to dismiss the role that one's context plays in behavior, when in reality, behavior is pretty darn lawful. I think this attitude is especially prevalent in Western societies where individualism and personal (rather than collective) responsibility is emphasized. But there are mountains of data that make pretty darn clear that human behavior is not solely determined by the force of will, but is also shaped by a multitude of external factors. Stimulus control is real, and when it comes to food consumption (and many would argue, drug abuse) it's particularly relevant.

[junebug41]

Originally Posted by rockinrobin

On one hand it is easier, as these habits are so automatic to me. Though of course I struggle (plenty at times) with doing the "right" thing, even though I knew FULL WELL what the right thing is. Which really supports the claim that it all comes down to choice. I can't let what "society" wants interfere with what I want. Of course, this was 20+ years in the making for me.

Yeah, I think you're right, but it wasn't all that long ago when society very much interfered with what I ate and it's been such a learning process discovering the "why's" and the reasoning behind it. I truly feel...awake.

[rockinrobin]

Originally Posted by junebug41

Yeah, I think you're right, but it wasn't all that long ago when society very much interfered with what I ate and it's been such a learning process discovering the "why's" and the reasoning behind it. I truly feel...awake.

Society was not responsible for me buying 1/2 gallons of ice cream and treating them as single servings. Society never forced me to shovel M & M's (peanut, of course ), down my throat. Nor was it society that made me stop doing those things either. The "good" choices were always available to me. I just chose to ignore them.

It HAS been a learning process for me as well. Because I took the bull by the horns and CHOSE to educate myself. When I searched hard enough - it was all there for the taking. I just chose to look the other way all those years.

[kaplods]

As a former probation officer, I can tell you that ignorance of the law is no excuse, however it is considered a mitigating factor when it comes to sentencing.

Even in probation, we were taught that there is a social responsibility to the criminal offender - external factors do play a role in the offending, and the more opportunities that society provides, and the more you can get an offender to participate appropriately in the social network, the more successful they are. We encouraged probationees to go to church (any church), because the statistics are that if they find a supportive church, and other positive social groups they are less likely to offend. And, if their church or positive social group rejects them, they are more likely to reoffend.

It isn't that the criminal offender or the overweight person is not responsible for their behavior, but the individual's physical and social environments play a role in the responsibility as well. And yes, knowledge of available choices is a HUGE component in individuals in either group succeeding.

By the time I hit puberty, I literally was a freak. Very few people were my size, and fewer people were overweight. So in the last 35 years, what has changed? Are people dumber, lazier, and less motivated than people in the past? Why is this trend only seen in eating/exercise/weight (people are more educated and working more hours and spending more time in "productive" activities than people in the past, and sleeping less also)?

The social, economic, and cultural changes are partially responsible for the fact that 1 in 3 Americans are overweight 1 in 3. Not entirely, but partially. Society can help people help themselves. We who need the help can't wait for that to happen, but we (as people who belong to the society) have an obligation to be part of the solution - not just for ourselves, at the level of the individual - but for others, also.

It can start small, like not laughing or staring at a giantly fat woman like me in a bathing suit, or calling a size 2 celebrity fat because she has a bit of cellulite. Maybe then more overweight people would feel less afraid of swimming and engaging in other physical activities in public. I have learned to not give a fig about what people think of me when I swim, bicycle, or walk, but I see so many people much smaller than I with paralyzing fear over even being in public, as if mere existence were a crime. That it's not socially acceptable in many places for fat women to wear a bathing suit or even a sleeveless top no matter how hot it is, that IS "society's" responsiblity - which really means it's all of our responsibility.

Because society IS us, everything boils down to the individual, and we are responsible to ourselves first, but we are responsible to others as well. It takes a village, not only to raise a child, but to rehabilitate a criminal, and to our mental and physical healths as well. We are our brothers keepers.