asparagus, I think you're on to something. Reading so many posts about restriction, exercise, bingeing, weight, etc. really does keep the mental focus on exactly the stuff I'm trying to get away from. So mostly I stay out of a lot of it.
I guess it's a natural progression. As Alan Watts said, "When you get the message, hang up the phone."
One interesting thing that the authors of Overcoming Overeating say about carrying a food bag--this is a food supply you have with you in case you feel hungry--is that it should contain foods you like to eat, and not foods that you are eating because they are "diet foods."
I realized that most of the time, the foods I take with me ARE foods I like to eat! Certain kinds of protein bars, organic nuts and small amounts of organic trail mix, etc. I've always wanted the foods I eat to be foods I liked, not just foods I thought would work with weight loss.
I'm still here too. But I'm still figuring it out for myself, not much to add!! I'm pouring my energies more into activity than diet, trying to eat what I want, in moderation. Granted, I've been very active, but my weight seems to have stabilized (even drifted down) since I've relaxed about the whole thing. Time will tell if I'm finding balance.
It's really great to lose weight. You stick to your plan, you record your pounds, you check in daily... And then you reach your goal weight, post your goal story, and celebrate the beginning of maintenance. Only, evidently no one knows how to do maintenance except to stay with the same plan and add a few calories here and there. And, if the scale starts to go up, restrict.
My experience with this is what I called yo-yo dieting with a short string. I did this for a year or so, but my weight began to creep up anyway. I was mystified by this--how could I not continue to do what had worked so well when I lost?
Now that I'm finding out more about it, I am beginning to really see the pitfalls of dieting--especially the kind that gives you a 1- to 2-pound per week loss. I used to parrot that phrase "It's a lifestyle change, not a diet"--but really, come on, what I was doing was a diet.
Lifestyle change is all well and good--I now know that fast food is awful to eat, and I don't go for it. My awareness of my eating is greatly improved. I now know what to eat and what not to eat, regardless of the numbers. And yet, my weight problem is not yet solved.
I also see the pitfalls of setting an arbitrary goal weight. The number is just a choice, informed or not. You could do as well pulling a number out of a hat. However, the number becomes hugely important. People always get there and want to go lower, it seems. And then lower still. One has to wonder whether this is mentally healthy.
Finally one reaches a number that can't be sustained indefinitely. And then there is a choice. Live the rest of your days eating less and less, or change that number.
I think that if I had had a different approach from the beginning, one that was not all about numbers and will power, I would not have regained as much as I have. I think the repeated restriction just set me up for this.
I remember with some chagrin how I used to "get tough" with posters in weight loss support--Stay with it! Don't give up! Hang in there! Now I wonder why I thought I knew anything about it.
Finding a way to lower my weight is not going to be so simple now. The old way that worked, doesn't anymore. And I know I'm not alone in this experience.
Now that I'm finding out more about it, I am beginning to really see the pitfalls of dieting--especially the kind that gives you a 1- to 2-pound per week loss. I used to parrot that phrase "It's a lifestyle change, not a diet"--but really, come on, what I was doing was a diet.
Lifestyle change is all well and good--I now know that fast food is awful to eat, and I don't go for it. My awareness of my eating is greatly improved. I now know what to eat and what not to eat, regardless of the numbers. And yet, my weight problem is not yet solved.
I've been following this thread with great interest since you started it, Jay. I lost 55 lbs last year and have now gained about 15 of them back over the winter months so the whole maintenance thing has been an issue with me as well.
I am not trying to attack or tell you what to do. But as I've read these threads, the same question keeps coming back to me.
Say losing weight is like getting out of debt. You set a budget, you stick to it, and you work real hard and you get out of debt (aka reach your goal). Now it's time for maintenance. You may not buy extravagant things anymore (like eat at McDonalds every day) but if you throw out the budget, your gonna get back into debt. The budget may change a little, but it's got to stay. The budget is the lifestyle.
People that I know who are slim make an effort to stay that way - it doesn't just happen. They may have been slim ever since I've known them, but they don't do it without some kind of plan (or budget). Fitness may be there hobby, but maintaining their weight requires attention and/or vigilance.
So saying that you're not going to count calories anymore is like saying that because you are out of debt now, you no longer need to balance your checkbook. But when it comes to fiscal responsibility, it doesn't matter whether you're trying to get out of debt or accumulate wealth - you gotta know where you're at and that involves balancing the checkbook (getting on the scale) and staying within some kind of budget (keeping track of what you eat in some form or other).
I gained 15 lbs back. Part of that was my old habits rearing their heads once again. I've had to address the issues that got me fat in the first place. But I can say that I also have not followed my "plan." I haven't stayed within my budget. The first time I lost weight (about 30 lbs back in my teens) I gained it all back within 2 months. This time I've kept most of it off and what I have gained has come back over the course of six months, but I haven't stayed within my budget and that's why I gained it back. I certainly have much better habits than I used to have, but that has simply kept me from gaining it ALL back really FAST.
I just keep hearing people say on these regainer threads that they don't want to count calories anymore, they don't want to get on the scale anymore, etc. I understand burnout. I understand the difficulty in continuing extreme behavior (aka a strict diet). But if you're someone who has a tendency toward spending too much (getting into debt), you can't just throw out the budget and quit balancing your checkbook once you reach your goal and expect your finances to stay in pristine condition. That's simply not reality.
What am I missing here? Enlighten me, please.
Again, I'm not trying to be critical here. I am making a sincere effort to understand, and I'm just trying to explain the part I'm not "getting."
Well... to be frank, pageta, your post did sound like a lecture to me. Maybe it's just because I'm overloaded with work this time of year. That being said, I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I do not need to hear analogies about budgeting. I think I probably know more about budgeting and staying within a budget, with money or with food, than most people do. Also, I am not a simple-minded person who has never thought about this stuff.
My story is that of someone who successfully stayed within her calorie count and lost weight, and then stayed within her calorie count and maintained her weight for well over a year. What happened after that goes like this: I ate more than my calorie allotment, even though I carefully recorded it and weighed every day.
I am not a binge eater--I don't have that kind of issue. But I would be hungry, and I would eat more. And dutifully record everything. I was never above 2000 calories in a day, and often it was more like 1700-1800.
Then, when the scale would go up a pound or two, I would go back to the tight budget of weight loss. And I could hang with it for two weeks, maybe three weeks, and then I would start to get hungry. I fought hard against this, but gradually the daily intake would creep up again. I tried using average calories over a week's time, so I could maintain some kind of consistency, but even then the average would creep up on me.
So I would lose 2 pounds, and then I would gain those 2 pounds back. I would lose them again. I would gain them back, only this time it was 3pounds. I would try to lose the 3 pounds, be able to manage only 2, and then gain 3 more pounds. Do you see where this is leading?
It didn't make any sense! I was not eating an extra 3500 calories a week! According to all the adjusted calculators, I should not have been gaining! And yet... I was...
I was thinking about food and calories and my weight all the frigging time, and I was in a state of despair about it. My hunger would drive me to eat more, even when I didn't "want" to. All that beautiful will power that I have, that I had used successfully to lose and maintain as long as I had, was faltering.
I haven't mentioned exercise, but I was keeping up with that, too, until I overdid it and developed inflammation in my back. Then I had to cut back on it. Note: I said cut back, not quit.
Time went on, and now it is 2011, and yes, I have given up trying the same old approach that was supposed to work so well, because it no longer does.
If you find that balancing your metaphorical calorie checkbook works for you, that's great. But there seems to be a flaw in the metaphor, namely, there is more at work here than plus and minus. For me, a life lived by numbers feels oppressive, especially since I did it for so long. It also no longer seems to work! And I am not generally known as a weakling who just gives up when the going gets tough. You'll have to take my word for that since you don't know me.
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What am I missing here? Enlighten me, please.
Just a little snide, I think. I doubt I can enlighten you. You believe in what you're doing, and you think what I'm doing is dangerous. Let's agree to disagree about it! Maybe a year from now, we can compare notes again. Who knows--I might have changed my mind.
I'm not saying you haven't thought of the budget analogy - the discussion here has just revolved around not wanting to count calories or track what you eat and at the same time being frustrated because of unwanted weight gain. I've followed these regainer threads closely hoping that this aspect of the picture would be brought up and discussed, but it hasn't, so I finally brought it up myself.
So what I hear you saying is that you were tracking what you ate and you think you were eating what should be reasonable and yet you were gaining weight. After a while, you simply got tired of all the counting since it didn't seem to be doing any good. I can appreciate that.
Let me ask you this, since again, you may have experience with this as well that hasn't been specifically mentioned here. I picked up the book The Sugar Solution at the library yesterday and have started reading it (I've only gotten through the first few chapters). I've lost my weight with Weight Watchers, and they, of course, have the points system where foods are given different points based on their protein/fat/carbohydrate/fiber values according to how the body processes those various things. In other words, according to WW and this Sugar Solution book, not all calories are created equal.
My weakness is sweets, and I know that if I make chocolate chip cookies and call that my "lunch" (which I do, on occasion), I'm going to be a lot hungrier at 3:00 in the afternoon than if I ate a balanced meal with protein, fruit, vegetables, dairy and a reasonable portion of carbs. I CAN eat enough cookie dough to not be hungry in the middle of the afternoon (ask me how I know...), but in order to accomplish that, I end up eating almost double the number of WW points I am allotted for one day, which obviously isn't a very good plan.
I know there are all sorts of discussions here at 3 Fat Chicks about eating more of this or less of that. Did you try any rebalancing of what you were eating within those same calorie levels? Or were you just strictly counting calories?
I totally hear you on the hunger thing. I swear I'm like Pavlov's dogs when it comes to some things - if the kids get crazy or I have a bear of a project at work, I can feel absolutely famished with hunger even if I overate 2 hours ago. I hate hunger. It makes me cry. I feel your pain. To be hungry all the time and be gaining weight anyway - been there, done that. But I can't say that I was always eating wisely (aka having chocolate chip cookie dough for lunch) so I still feel like I can "balance the checkbook" and see what I was doing wrong so I attribute some of my gain to that.
I'm trying to learn from your experience. When I say "enlighten me" that means I'm listening with an open mind rather than trying to tell you what you're doing wrong. I just want to clarify a few things that keep popping up in my mind over and over again but aren't being discussed here. Please understand that I'm not trying to preach. I just want to understand your perspective. Thank you for taking the time to share. I appreciate every word you take the time to type.
I think the budgeting analogy is very appropriate here. I also gained back weight because I stopped following my calorie budget.
And Jay, it does sound like you're saying the same thing, in a way. You stopped eating the number of calories that would let you lose or maintain, in part because you seemed less satisfied with what you were eating. That seems to be one mystery -- that you weren't satisfied as you had been before. The second mystery is that the amount of weight you gained back didn't seem to equal what you thought it should be, given the prior situation.
You've spent a lot of time trying to solve these mysteries (at least if I read these threads and other posts right), but is it possible there isn't much of a mystery here?
Is it possible your calorie budget shrank without you knowing? For example, many women, with and without weight problems gain weight back as they age. My mother is a good example. She's 5'1" and most of her life weighed around 100 pounds. There were times when some weight would sneak on, usually because her habits had changed, and she'd tweak her diet and exercise and lose again. She never had a weight problem.
Now she's in her mid-60s and something has just changed. She gets more exercise than she did when she was younger, hasn't really changed her eating habits, and has gained about 20 pounds in the past 5 years. So, for her, what was working in terms of the calories in/out isn't "working" anymore.
But she's not tried changing her eating to create more of a deficit to see if it would help. I suspect it would. I've never heard you say that creating more of a deficit wouldn't work, just that you can't maintain that deficit (my problem too).
So, I guess I don't see why the budget analogy isn't a good one here! But to be honest, it does seem to be one you're defensive about. I didn't perceive pageta as trying to lecture or be snide, and I never saw any mention that what you are doing is dangerous!
Let me add that I'm not trying to imply that you're eating cookies and ice cream all the time, Jay, by using my eating chocolate chip cookie dough as an example of poor eating. I can be hungry by 10:00 after having whole wheat toast and a bowl of oatmeal for breakfast (note the lack of protein and dairy and fresh fruit, etc.). Those are good things, but the balance isn't right. The cookie dough is just a good example of how I am no saint myself - that's all.
pageta, when I was tracking I was using the Zone percentages as a target, which is 30:40:30, proteins:carbs:fats. (Ratio is percentage of calories from each nutrient group.)
I have never eaten cookies as a meal. It wouldn't occur to me to do that.
Heather, it is no big revelation to me that my metabolism is getting slower. And no, I'm not saying that creating a deficit won't lead to weight loss. But if one can't sustain that deficit, it's a moot point, isn't it?
Poking my nose in here for a minute, I hope you guys don't mind.
Calorie budgets do change. Mine did. To lose my regain I had to eat 200-400 calories less per day than I had to to lose the initial weight. It took me a long time to come to terms with that and admit to myself that I had to suck it up and eat less than I wanted to and be hungry for a while. And I do get tired of it. I could only do it a couple weeks at a time. But after restricting for a little while, I find that I feel fuller on fewer calories which helps me maintain.
Jay, this I think is the key thing you are saying:
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And no, I'm not saying that creating a deficit won't lead to weight loss. But if one can't sustain that deficit, it's a moot point, isn't it?
This is the balance issue that I think affects all maintainers. We see a lot of people coming on here saying, "I can't handle restricting like this forever." The fact is there is some amount of calories that will let you maintain your weight. If the calories to maintain 120lbs is too restrictive for a given person, at some point that person has to choose either to forget trying to be 120lbs and be whatever weight they are at a calorie level they can handle, or they have to choose to deal with the restriction. Some maintainers, like Bright Angel, are dealing with a very restrictive diet in order to not gain. Others decided to maintain at the weight at which a comfortable amount of calories allows them to maintain (of course "comfortable" is different for different people), and there are plenty of maintainers whose maintenance weight is technically overweight according to BMI.
So I guess the question really is about losing the regain. Do you ("you" = everyone, not just Jay) want to lose the weight you regained, or do you just want to stop gaining any more? Obviously much more restriction is required for the former than for the latter. I think at some point you have to say, this is the number of calories/diet/plan/whatever I'm okay with, and I will accept whatever weight I end up being.
Last edited by paperclippy; 03-31-2011 at 05:33 PM.
My calorie 'budget' has completely changed and i fear to lose even one pound i will have to be a veritable skin flint.
I lost 40lb - 5yrs ago (for about 5min) it slowly crept back on due to sliding back to my old ways. But only around 10 lbs - manageable.
In the past few months i have plunged into perimenopause and what a **** ride it has been.
Won't get into the gory details - but the scale has not been my friend.
Granted I haven't been a saint - but no worse than the last 4-1/2yrs.
I am thinking to lose or even maintain this weight, I will have to cut back to the bare minimum. I am not happy at this prospect at all.
I have been exercising regularly - but i guess i have to step that up too. All the while battling serious hormonal fatigue...hmmm maybe this huge waistline isn't so awful after all (insert heavy sarcasm here)
Heather, it is no big revelation to me that my metabolism is getting slower. And no, I'm not saying that creating a deficit won't lead to weight loss. But if one can't sustain that deficit, it's a moot point, isn't it?
I can't sustain the deficit either. It's because I'm not willing to do what it takes to keep doing it. Are you dealing with something different from that?
I think Jessica's point is valid -- some maintainers are willing and able to do what it takes to maintain weight loss, even in the face of changes, stresses, etc. I haven't been one of them, and I have to do as she said: decide what I want to do.
For me, it's not about "can't," it's about "won't". The process of weight loss hasn't changed, so that's not a mystery...
But if one can't sustain that deficit, it's a moot point, isn't it?
I puzzle over this point within the context of my life and the truth is I do not know what I will be willing or able to tolerate next year, 2 years from now, 5 years from now. Who really knows with any certainty what the future holds. All I can do is my best today and try to set up enough boundaries and habits to let me know what my body is doing. I know I can sail into the isle of denial so easily in so many different guises that vigilance is the price pay. The minimum efforts I am willing to do today is record my food both cal/carbs, measure it, and weigh daily when in town. I cannot drift into obesity in ignorance. If I decide to weigh more, it will have to be by conscious choice. Today, I believe I am very willing to be eternally vigilant, but only time will truly tell.
I think the budgeting analogy is extremely on the mark. It gives me great confidence with maintanence because DH&I are very good at budgeting together. Even as I type this, we are balancing our checkbooks, etc... We were not always this excellent at it. We learned, we developed processes that became sustainable habits, and this success has fuled other monetary successes. I do not have a 20 years long weight loss success to refer, so I need to use other areas of my life to give me hope. Budgeting is one such area that encourages me.
I on very rare occasion post my calories/carb levels. They are low and I do not like the starvation mode police showing up commenting on them. My body is very efficient with the calories and carbs I give it. At this time in my life, I really enjoy the foods I eat in the quantities I can. Maybe this will change. It took a long time, and it still requires effort, to discover them food that tastes good and is good for me. I find the effort pleasant. My study overlaps with other family members issues so I find that rewarding as well. My DS has Crohn's, traditional therapies have not worked and he is beginning trial meds within a few days. My SIL, 28 yrs has a tendancy to hypertension and gout. A first cousin (more like a sister) has had several TIAs and is in pain. I could go on with the family but a common demoniatior with these Metabloic Diseases are carbs with their various doctors coming on board with targeting it. My journaling, reading, meal planning, watching lectures on youtube helps me maintain and, God willing, bring relief to them. I think this added dimension is very motivating for me. Another NSV will be joining the National Weight Loss Registry in a few weeks.
Thank you for sharing your struggles. I hope none of this comes across as a lecture. I apologize in advance should it sound like it.
Yeah, Heather, I guess that's it. There's no mystery to weight regain. All of my confusion must be just because I'm stubbornly unwilling to accept what I have to do...
It doesn't feel to me as though I am unwilling. It feels to me like I can't. It feels to me like I failed every two weeks for a year... And I had been so successful! It's maddening.
So perhaps my looking around for different answers or approaches is just the "isle of denial" on my part. Maybe I should just shut up and start tracking my foods and my weight every day again, even though it no longer works for me to do that. The process of weight loss hasn't changed, so what is my problem? Jeez...
You get a pass on this one. Hang in there. 
Let's agree to disagree about it! Maybe a year from now, we can compare notes again. Who knows--I might have changed my mind.
