I don't think there's enough information to make an informed judgement (should one be necessary), but it's certainly easy to see how you (and possibly the guy) were taken aback, especially if she didn't give any prior indication that she wanted him to open the door for her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devoncroix
Feminists clearly do not support chivalry which sends mixed messages to the guys in our society.
I think it's safe to say that most people in our modern, post-industrial, democratic society, regardless of their opinions on women's inherent worth or entitlement to the rights and privileges (most) males have traditionally enjoyed, don't have a lot of time for medieval (literally), class-specific codes of conduct. Perhaps you meant courtesy? Although I don't know too many people, feminist or otherwise, who have a problem with being treated courteously, as long as the "courteous" behavior isn't really a cover for condescension, an attempt to control or dominate them, or an attempt to reinforce social patterns and laws that they see as personally harmful or morally repugnant.
I'm completely spoiled by my bf who, even after 1.5 years of dating, still insists on opening my car door every time. However, the first time he did it I was shocked b/c no other guy had ever opened my car door...door to a restaurant, yes...but not the car. I think it's adorable when my bf does it, but I certainly would not have dismissed him if he had never started doing it. Even if i got back on the market and started dating other guys, I wouldn't expect them to do it or be angry if they didn't. If I was the guy in your friend's situation, i would have been off put, especially if it was a serious tone. Like others mentioned as well, why didn't she say something the first time if that's what she really expects?
I am always pleased when my husband opens the door for me, even if we sometimes forget in the busyness of having children. Him acting like a gentleman and me acting like a lady is better for BOTH of us!
She did send some slightly mixed signals, but I do consider it a mark against a man when he goes Dutch on a date or doesn't open doors, pull out chairs, etc. but I'm also about as anti-feminist as they come and strongly prefer traditional gender roles. Too many men don't know how to behave anymore, because women send SUCH mixed signals - some get offended at courtesy and manners, some (like me) expect it, and still others wouldn't know what was going on if they did see any! So the poor guys aren't the only culpable ones
Last edited by Arctic Mama; 01-23-2013 at 12:34 AM.
Reason: Typo fix
There are just so many other ways to approach that situation. ("Hey, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I'd just love if you opened the door for me.") But then again, I'm pretty close to the situation and thought that maybe my point of view was skewed.
I agree with this - it's not something worth making an issue of if the moment has passed, and she could have handled it more gracefully. Again, we can't just demand men act gentlemanly and not act in a courteous, ladylike fashion in return. The comment was quite uncalled for from her and didn't do her any favors, unless I'm misreading the tone and they both got that she was mostly kidding in her 'offense'.
Preferring traditional gender roles is not anti-feminist. Feminism is about making your own choices with the knowledge of the history of those roles. I'm a feminist who wears make-up and dresses. I am, however, interested in how my gender is presented, treated and pressured in my society.
Don't mean to side-track. I just think it's odd that so many people assume "feminist" means the most outspoken and extreme of the movement. It was and is a movement of choice and knowledge. Many self-identified feminists (male and female) feel the same. I'd say most women here are feminists according to this description, but the word "feminist" has become such a dirty word that very few self-identify that way anymore. Such a shame.
Last edited by Song of Surly; 01-23-2013 at 08:29 AM.
If I were the guy her comment would have made me feel as if I had been reprimanded......not a good way to start a relationship,
Yes, I think her comment was out of line.
I think the problem with expecting specific things out of someone you just met is that you have NO idea where they are coming from or how they were raised. It's perfectly fine to want a man to open doors for you, but to stand by a door and say what she said is a little rude IMO, even if it were in a kidding tone. Like others have said, if she'd have just approached it in a different way I think it would have been better. Some things that I think of as common sense, others wouldn't even consider and I'm SURE vice versa! Open and honest, and respectful, communication is a very easy way to get your desires across, rather than being rude.
That comment came across to me as bossy and demanding.
In fairness to men, the "rules" have changed so much over the years that who knows what we want. Plus, a lot of knowing what to do is dependent upon how you were raised. I'm old enough that I can remember when my parents were walking down the sidewalk, my dad would always move to the curb side of the sidewalk so my mom was on the inside. I don't think I've seen that happen in years. Men always stood when a woman entered the room. They definitely got up when there were no seats on a bus or subway. Now, a lot won't get up if a pregnant woman in labor got on!
And, quite truthfully, I've seen women literally bark at men for holding open a door to a building instead of just saying thank you. If the car door opening is a big deal to your friend, there were much nicer ways of letting him know. I loved the comment about she was lucky he didn't leave her there on the curb waiting.......sounds like something I would think of doing.
I think it's safe to say that most people in our modern, post-industrial, democratic society, regardless of their opinions on women's inherent worth or entitlement to the rights and privileges (most) males have traditionally enjoyed, don't have a lot of time for medieval (literally), class-specific codes of conduct. Perhaps you meant courtesy? Although I don't know too many people, feminist or otherwise, who have a problem with being treated courteously, as long as the "courteous" behavior isn't really a cover for condescension, an attempt to control or dominate them, or an attempt to reinforce social patterns and laws that they see as personally harmful or morally repugnant.
I agree. I would not describe myself as a feminist but I know a few people that would describe themselves as such. They personally don't mind someone opening a door for them as long as its mutual and isn't presented as "you are a woman so no matter what I'm doing/juggling/holding, I must open the door for you". Like my husband holds the door open for other people, regardless of their sex. I imagine him opening the car door for me would be the same courtesy he'd give to a guest in his car, male or female. I think common courtesy is a nice thing and I think someone expecting someone to open a door for them isn't common courtesy.
I like it when a man opens a car door for me. DH never does it. I realized that when we're dressed up and going out somewhere nice, I do want him to open my car door. So, I said, "Honey, when we're dressed up and going out, I'd really like it if you opened my car door for me." So, guess what? He does (if he remembers--sometimes I remind him--no issues).
As a first date move, though, I think it was pretty rude. Wanting your date to open your car door isn't rude, but I think it'd make more sense to go with the flow, and if the relationship continues, ask for it. Being snide on your first date sounds like a great way to make sure there isn't a second date.
BTW, I think barking at someone who does hold open a door is rude. Self-describing as a feminist or not, being rude is not acceptable. Personally, I think the first person to the door should open it, unless one person is clearly physically more able, and then that person should open it. I work with some older men and just recognize they're mostly going to open doors for me, and that's fine. What I dislike is when a man opens a door for me and holds it open in such with his body in such a way that I have to brush past close to him to get through the door. I don't say anything--but I don't like it.
Last edited by bethFromDayton; 01-23-2013 at 10:13 AM.
Preferring traditional gender roles is not anti-feminist. Feminism is about making your own choices with the knowledge of the history of those roles. I'm a feminist who wears make-up and dresses. I am, however, interested in how my gender is presented, treated and pressured in my society.
Don't mean to side-track. I just think it's odd that so many people assume "feminist" means the most outspoken and extreme of the movement. It was and is a movement of choice and knowledge. Many self-identified feminists (male and female) feel the same. I'd say most women here are feminists according to this description, but the word "feminist" has become such a dirty word that very few self-identify that way anymore. Such a shame.
Trust me when I say I'm anti-feminist, and the redefining of gender roles is the tip of the iceberg. Getting into details on a forum with this sort of membership is not something that would be useful to me, I'm too busy to fight on the Internet!
Trust me when I say I'm anti-feminist, and the redefining of gender roles is the tip of the iceberg. Getting into details on a forum with this sort of membership is not something that would be useful to me, I'm too busy to fight on the Internet!
Well I hope I didn't come off as looking for a fight, and I hope I didn't sound condescending or anything. I just realized that saying what I said may have made it sound like I assumed ignorance of the movement, and for that I apologize. Insert foot in mouth. I had just recalled a similar conversation I had with a professor (who I adored) who was called out for wearing mascara and pink in a class devoted to the study of women's literature in college by the college's relatively famous self-described feminist. There's some intensity/insanity in that world, and we talked a lot about how it's driving people away. Having PCOS and being able to grow a beard at the age of 15 drew me to it, however. Not much of a chance for a strong feminine identity. But, to each her own. I just wanted to apologize.
ETA: By the way, sorry, OP, if I derailed your thread!
Last edited by Song of Surly; 01-23-2013 at 01:49 PM.
Well I hope I didn't come off as looking for a fight, and I hope I didn't sound condescending or anything. I just realized that saying what I said may have made it sound like I assumed ignorance of the movement, and for that I apologize. Insert foot in mouth. I had just recalled a similar conversation I had with a professor (who I adored) who was called out for wearing mascara and pink in a class devoted to the study of women's literature in college by the college's relatively famous self-described feminist. There's some intensity/insanity in that world, and we talked a lot about how it's driving people away. Having PCOS and being able to grow a beard at the age of 15 drew me to it, however. Not much of a chance for a strong feminine identity. But, to each her own. I just wanted to apologize.
ETA: By the way, sorry, OP, if I derailed your thread!
Well I think they can be related in terms of feminism, again not a topic I'm terribly familiar with but I have read a variety of articles recently. A lot of them deal with feminist women who are following roles that early feminists may have rejected such as being a stay at home mom/wife but there is no reason that would be against feminist ideals. I think balance seems to be important.
And if someone wants doors opened for them, then there is a right way to address that and a wrong way.
I think it's safe to say that most people in our modern, post-industrial, democratic society, regardless of their opinions on women's inherent worth or entitlement to the rights and privileges (most) males have traditionally enjoyed, don't have a lot of time for medieval (literally), class-specific codes of conduct. Perhaps you meant courtesy? Although I don't know too many people, feminist or otherwise, who have a problem with being treated courteously, as long as the "courteous" behavior isn't really a cover for condescension, an attempt to control or dominate them, or an attempt to reinforce social patterns and laws that they see as personally harmful or morally repugnant.
Thank you for saying what I wanted to say.
I'm a feminist. I hold doors open for other people; I react positively when other people do the same for me. No big deal.
To the OP: As krampus said, if a friend told me that I would work to suppress an eye-roll, put on my best therapist face, and ask what happened next.
