Again, another "general discussion" type question, not an argument. We know that a propensity to resist weight gain or rapidly gain is at least partially determined genetically (twin studies have found this repeatedly - here's one from 1986). Now obviously, environment plays a role as well. We all know both people who can eat a LOT and not gain weight and people who eat less and maintain a higher weight (my FIL and his partner are one example...partner can PACK AWAY food and has never had over a 30 inch waist, while my FIL eats the same foods in smaller quantities and struggles with his weight). So here we have a situation where the risk for an potentially expensive health outcome (obesity) is raised by both genetic and environmental factors.
Another health outcome that might fall into that category is breast cancer. Some people carry mutations on the BRCA1 gene, which raises their risk of lifetime ovarian or breast cancer astronomically, to around 50% risk of each. Of course, lifestyle factors do play a role in development of breast cancer as well (not having children, not breast feeding, alcohol use, weight, etc), and some people get breast cancer without having a mutation in BRCA1 or 2, for reasons we haven't quite nailed down yet.
To me, it's hard to understand the difference in saying "you need to pay more for your insurance because you're overweight, and though that might be due in part to genetic factors, lifestyle is involved too and you're too risky to insure" and "you need to pay more for your insurance because you have a BRCA1 mutation, lifestyle may be involved too, and you're too risky to insure". Of course, it's illegal to raise insurance rates on the basis of a positive BRCA1 genetic mutation test, which makes me feel like a bit of a double standard is being applied with obesity (maybe because the exact genes involved haven't been fully identified, and obesity appears to be polygenic and is a more complex issue).
I guess this is what I'm asking - what makes obesity (influenced by genetics AND environmental factors) so morally different than any other disease influenced by both, so much so that an entire industry has evolved to shame people who are fat into losing weight by any means necessary?
I think this is the point of NAAFA - that someone can do everything "right", eating and exercise-wise, and still be a higher weight. So even IF obesity alone were enough to cause negative health outcomes (and I do agree with previous posters that this hasn't actually been confirmed...we have correlational data, but no data proving causation), wouldn't eliminating the shame and focusing on the healthy lifestyle habits that we all have control over make more sense than setting arbitrary standards of a "good weight" and telling people to get there, no matter what, and shaming them if they fail to acheive that standard?
Last edited by mandalinn82; 04-27-2010 at 05:50 PM.
Reason: Wrote cervical cancer, meant ovarian
I think you are very reasonable in your points -- but I guess we should determine what we mean by "higher weight". I agree with your examples if we are talking a size 6 woman compared to say, a size 12 -- that can be a variety of environmental, health, genetic, body-type, hormonal issues that can create a situation where they are both living similar lifestyles and 'settling' at different weights.
I still can see no possible way though, that a size 6 woman and a size 26 woman (most factors similar) can be eating and living the same lifestyle (without the larger woman losing or the smaller woman gaining on either side). I don't think anyone's body naturally "settles" at like 275 or 300 lbs if they are living a healthy lifestyle.
That's just my opinion.
Last edited by MyBestYear; 04-27-2010 at 05:38 PM.
I think you are very reasonable in your points -- but I guess we should determine what we mean by "higher weight". I agree with your examples if we are talking a size 6 woman compared to say, a size 12 -- that can be a variety of environmental, health, genetic, body-type, hormonal issues that can create a situation where they are both living similar lifestyles and 'settling' at different weights.
I still can see no possible way though, that a size 6 woman and a size 26 woman (most factors similar) can be eating and living the same lifestyle (without the larger woman losing or the smaller woman gaining on either side). I don't think anyone's body naturally "settles" at like 275 or 300 lbs if they are living a healthy lifestyle. That's just my opinion.
I just wanted to come in and apologize for my part in 'heating up' the thread. Many of us clearly have strong personal opinions on the subject of fat acceptance, health, and what it means to be healthy. My intention was not to alienate anyone or hurt anyone's feelings (if I did that, I am sorry).
I think we can all agree no one should be treated inferior due to their size and that every one is deserving of kindness. I hope we can all come together in other threads in support.
I still can see no possible way though, that a size 6 woman and a size 26 woman (most factors similar) can be eating and living the same lifestyle (without the larger woman losing or the smaller woman gaining on either side). I don't think anyone's body naturally "settles" at like 275 or 300 lbs if they are living a healthy lifestyle.
That's just my opinion.
I also think that there are a lot of factors. When I was 25, I weighed 360 lbs, went to Jenny Craig and followed the plan strictly as well as exercised intensely for an hour, 5 times per week. In the first 3 months, I lost 30 lbs and was eating 1800 calories. I then proceeded to lose nothing for 9 months. It was frustrating and I really had a lot of experiences of my body settling at 330.
Fast forward 4 years later, I was diagnosed with PCOS and put on BC pills, started eating healthier and lost 75 lbs in 3 months zooming past my 330 mark. Now of course the question is really was it truly my hormones? It seems hard to believe but that was the only difference I could attribute. Throughout my weight loss I had 'stuck points' for various reasons even one around 280 which was similar to my days in Jenny Craig but eventually my body responded.
Right now, I'm on a self imposed plateau although I exercise regularly and eat healthy foods. My only real issue is portions. Even though I'm happy where I'm at, I do want to lose more weight. I am currently a misses size 14/16 which really was my primary goal of getting out of plus sizes.
I guess I am not articulating correctly. I don't understand how one can remain obese and maintain they are eating reasonable portions of healthy food and exercising regularly (without losing steadily, no matter how slowly).
Because if you are truly living a lifestyle of "healthy at any size" I would think your size would be slowly reducing, it seems like pure science would dictate that.
Definitely doesn't work this way for me. I started out eating low fat and higher carb, was on a diet put together for me- and did not lose any weight. Well I take that back- in two-three weeks I lost 8 lbs, then for 6 months not one more lb. I worked out, I ate 99% perfect (sure I'd have a meal out once a week). I literally became afraid of food.
Finally I changed doctors, got a nutritionist, and she told me my eating was perfect for a "normal" person- but because I have PCOS I'm eating all wrong. She then put me on the South Beach diet and I started counting carbs. Since then the weight has started to finally come off. It's been slow but it's finally going.
Boy if I started this thread it would have been closed long ago!
Just a thought for one of you....
True story....there is a gal here at 3FC...she has not posted on this thread...I remember her always saying how healthy she was, even over 300 pounds, and talked about all the things she could do...even being obese...she is pretty young....
well...WHAMMO...type 2 diabetes hit her....not so healthy anymore....
even had to take drastic measures to get the weight off...
True story....there is a gal here at 3FC...she has not posted on this thread...I remember her always saying how healthy she was, even over 300 pounds, and talked about all the things she could do...even being obese...she is pretty young....
well...WHAMMO...type 2 diabetes hit her....not so healthy anymore....
The fact that I have, up thread, posted scientific evidence from a recent health test (last week!) showing that by medical standards I am perfectly healthy...and that many of you seem to continue to maintain that I am fooling myself...is downright insulting.
Type 2 diabetes does not "just hit someone." While it may seem sudden to the sufferer, the fact is that type 2 diabetes is preceded by years of worsening blood-sugar control.
I have extremely good blood sugar control--my fasting glucose is 81 and my A1C (as tested last year) is 4.6. I am not about to be "just hit" by type 2 diabetes. I might be about to be "just hit" by a bus...but...so could any of us.
I am both fat (obese by BMI) and completely healthy. This is fact.
If I was not consciously making an effort to lose weight by restricting calories, then I would not be losing weight, despite eating perfectly healthy and getting lots of activity. This is fact--it's called "maintenance," and I did it last year for 6 months.
It's really very tiring to attempt to have a discussion with a group of people who seem to be unable to acknowledge fact.
What bothers me isn't the "fat is unhealthy" argument, it's the way it's used as a weapon and an arbitrary one at that. If you're "beautiful" by current standards (especially if you're wealthy too), you will be praised (and copied) for whatever you are doing to create/maintain that beauty, even if it's dangerous and life-threatening. When liposuction had a higher death rate than wls (at a time when wls had a death rate higher only than open-heart surgery) the demand for liposuction exceeded the number of doctor's trained in the procedure (death rates rose before they dropped). And for the most part, the early liposuction patients were not overweight, they just didn't like the distribution of the healthy amount of fat they did have.
For most of my life, the ways I went about trying to lose weight were extremely unhealthy, and yet I was never criticised for those methods - the feeling seeming to be (and still existing today) that it doesn't matter how risky the method - losing the weight rapidly without regard to the risks is the only "admirable" way to lose weight (anything else is lazy). I didn't learn a successful, sustainable way to lose weight until I was more concerned with the method than the resut. It wasn't until I stopped worrying about the number, and started working on the healthy habits that the weight came off in a way that I could keep off.
It also didn't come off until I was not ashamed of myself. Shame only helped me do crazy things for a short time, it never helped me take care of myself.
Healthy at any size may be a delusion, but it's a delusion that helped me make real and sustained progress for the first time in nearly 40 years. It was only when I focused on the behavior and not the weight that I saw success that I could maintain.
The reason is very clear. When only the number matters, you only work when you can see the results. If you're eating healthy and exercising and the weight isn't coming off fast (or fast enough to meet your expectations), you tend to think "well, this isn't working."
More people abandon diets because they feel they're failing than because they really are. It isn't that weight loss isn't happening, it's that it isn't happening as fast as it "should" (and the should is judged by all of the crazy diets that promise those kind of results - which is essentially every one that is popular. Slow-weight loss diets are never popular weight loss diets).
De-emphasizing weight was the most important thing I ever did for myself. Followed closely by refusing to "hide" by letting social pressure keep me from swimming, bicycling and in general existing in "public" and social settings.
I still get occasional stares and comments that clearly express a belief that I am participating in an activity in which I am clearly not welcome. The social pressure against any woman with an imperfect body swimming, is a personal pet peeve. When I see even tiny women mortified at the idea of wearing a swimming suit, it feels like a knife being twisted in my gut. The best (and sometimes only safe) exercise on the planet for a morbidly obese person is considered the most off-limits socially.
You can't tell me that concern over our "health" is the motivation behind fat hatred. If it were, a fat person in a swimming suit would receive cheers, not jeers.
What bothers me isn't the "fat is unhealthy" argument, it's the way it's used as a weapon and an arbitrary one at that.
(snipped by me)
You can't tell me that concern over our "health" is the motivation behind fat hatred. If it were, a fat person in a swimming suit would receive cheers, not jeers.
But that doesn't happen, does it?
This, exactly. It doesn't matter if having a high BMI or body fat percentage is healthy or not. People use "concern for health" as a reason to put down and/or discriminate against those who are obese. I've never seen/heard a skinny person being made fun of for eating an unhealthy meal. I had a work friend years ago who was tiny. She was under 5 feet tall and probably under 90 lbs. She existed on diet coke and hostess snack cakes and chips and candy bars. I never once heard anyone give her grief over what she ate - but I heard tons fo people say how "great" it was that she could stay thin. If she had been 200 lbs, I have no doubt that there would have been snickers, and "doesn't she know better?", and "fat pig" comments. If it was really about health, there wouldn't be that discrepancy. If it were about healthy, people wouldn't make moo-ing sounds out the window if they see an overweight person out jogging, etc etc.
So if someone doesn't subscribe to "fat acceptance" they are "fat haters"?
How extreme.
I don't accept my fat. I don't have to accept or not accept any one else's fat because they are the ones who have to live their lives carrying around all that extra weight. I am only called to treat others with decency and respect, hopefully with kindness - regardless of their size.
I can accept myself without accepting my fat. My fat is not who I am.My fat is a badge of pain, hiding, fear, and years of using food as a way to escape, celebrate, dull pain, express emotions, stuff emotions.
Why in the world would I accept that? Accepting myself is separate from accepting my fat. Accepting myself means I love myself enough not to hurt myself anymore.
Yeah, my 'numbers' are all good too. I want more than just 'beating the odds'. I want more than just 'getting by'. I want more than just a number on a blood test result. I want to live to my full potential - without 100lbs of extra baggage.
Concern for health may not be at the root of fat hatred but it sure as Shirley isn't behind fat 'acceptance' either imo, ....but like I said, there is a world of thought in between the two extremes... and I don't like to live in extremes.
...and if one truly accepts themselves, then dirty looks at a swimming pool is something I imagine wouldn't be an issue. I went to the beach twice this weekend in all my 275 lb glory. People probably thought whatever, but I didn't even notice. I am too concerned with myself and my journey now to notice or care if susie hot pants thinks I am too fat to be on the beach.
That's acceptance, to me. Acceptance of self without accepting my fat -- because I am 100% committed to releasing it even though I am okay at the beach in a bathing suit and all my tests are 'healthy'.
We ALL know that many skinny people are unhealthy! Smokers...junk food eaters etc...no reason to even argue that...
but....
When I see a person that is skinny I usually don't think much about it...although I will admit to notice someone that looks maybe anorexic...but I will also justify it in my mind they may just be skinny by genetics...
but when I see a person that is fat...I just think they are FAT!...and how sad it must be for them to be that way...at the same time wondering if my gut is sticking out far enough that I am noticed as being overweight...
a feeling I do not like at all
dang beer belly
I guess my question is this...
If you are overweight What do you think when you see someone else that is overweight...and I mean those that are obese and not just needing to lose a few pounds.
If you are overweight What do you think when you see someone else that is overweight...and I mean those that are obese and not just needing to lose a few pounds.
Truthfully, I don't think much ... I guess I am wrapped up too much in my own journey to speculate on other people too much. Of course, I notice, but there is no negative judgment attached to it for the most part. Sometimes if I see someone who is seriously obese, like even having trouble walking and such, I feel really sad. I try to tell myself that they are trying to get healthy and they may have already lost 50lbs! I don't know their business so I dunno where they are at exactly in their journey.
Sometimes I feel judgmental (which makes me feel bad) but I realize that judgment is about ME and a reflection on how I used to feel about myself, not about them.
Mostly though, I am focused on other thoughts/plans/my own journey/my family to notice too much.
So if someone doesn't subscribe to "fat acceptance" they are "fat haters"?
How extreme.
That isn't wasn't what was said at all. In fact, I had to go hunt and search to try to find what you might have been referring to. What was being addressed was the people that feel it is alright to be openly cruel and mean to people who are overweight. You've already agreed that this is not okay, right?
This discussion has really stirred some things up in people. But this is likely an indication that we all have issues we need to work on. (I've always found that when something makes me really angry there is something else going on.) I've always been pleased that 3FC has been a very supportive environment. We all have our differences of opinion but we are a very diverse group. Tone and intent behind text can so often be misconstrued. I truly just hope the discussion continues in a positive way.
