General chatter - Was this cruel?




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GlamourGirl827
09-13-2013, 08:00 PM
I'm not sure why I'm posting this, I just want to tell someone. I just read on facebook, one of my fb friends posted she found outside a mother mouse nursing her babies, and "threw them over her fence"...that really pissed me off. Its one of my husband's coworkers so I wont even start with her.

I'm not an animal lover, we dont even have any pets but fish. I don't hold animals equal to pople and I'm not saying she needed to adopt this mouse family, but gees, throwing them over a fence is pretty shitty...I'm sure there's a less ahole way off getting them off her property.

Idk, that just bothered me. We have a rule with the kids, no killing anything outside that isnt hurting you. My boys dont step on bugs outside though they do like to play with them lol...

I could never throw anything thats alive over a fence...


JulesMarion
09-13-2013, 08:05 PM
I may be the wrong person since I'm an animal lover (but for mostly cats & dogs) and I cry when a bird dive-bombs my car and I hit it, but that seems pretty cruel to me. I kill spiders and mosquitoes, and other bugs if they are trying to kill me, but I would never kill an animal.

OK, so I fish, but I feel like thats on a different level.

EagleRiverDee
09-13-2013, 08:31 PM
I remember when I was a kid, my neighbors caught a mouse in the house, filled up their sink and drowned it by holding it under water with a glass. It really upset me. Even thinking about that upsets me. I have a very empathetic personality.

I get that mice are considered pests. And I don't want them in my house, either. But if I found a nest outside I'd probably leave it alone. They have enough challenges with cats and birds.


kaplods
09-13-2013, 08:51 PM
Mice can and do survive much greater falls without apparent injury, so she probably did them much less harm than she intended.

Personally, I love rodents, but on the other hand they are also a potentially a serious pest that can cause damage and spread serious diseases. A wild mouse's life is a very brutal one, so being injured or even killed in a fall would be a relatively quick and painless way to go.


I think killing them quickly would be more humane, but I don't know if I could do it, especially to babies. I wanted euthanize my pet rat myself when she was clearly suffering from terminal cancer, but I was so afraid to do it wrong that I ended up taking her to the vet.

I often let my rats out of their cages and they would climb, fall, and leap from great heights with no ill effects. I have read that being smaller, mice can actually fall further than rats without injury.

I'm not saying she did Momma and babies a kindness, but if she meant to keep them from invading her house and property, she probably failed.

seabiscuit
09-13-2013, 09:00 PM
This is so sad. :(. I had pet mice and they can be very cute and sweet. This is very sad and upsetting to hear.

GlamourGirl827
09-13-2013, 09:00 PM
I agree, I wouldnt want them in the house, and bugs in the house get squished, well not by me, I find it too gross, DH does it. But he agrees that to just kill something out side for no reason is cruel.

And a mother with nursing babies? Seriously how cold hearted does one have to be? And this woman is a nurse!! That scares me too...

EagleRiverDee- that is horrible and would upset me very much to see. Was your neighbor a child or an adult?

Last year at the bus stop my son and the other girl there found a ladybug, and the girl kept telling my son to kill it and he refused. He said he doesn't like to kill things because it mean. And she said that when he (my son) got older he would like to kill things because that's what boys do and he brother is older and likes to kill things...well I could not keep my mouth shut at that. I told her that her brother is mean and boys do not like to kill things. I also told her that he mom and dad should have taught her brother not to kill things and that there is something wrong with him to enjoy killing even bugs. I was mad she said this to my son, my response was more about telling my son that her brother was wrong, so my son didnt think the brother's behavoir was normal. But she looked at me like I was nuts, like all the little girl knew was to kill things for fun...I'm sorry but I think that's sick...and not for nothing, but she was a nasty little girl otherwise, to the other kids, she was a real brat!

MauiKai
09-13-2013, 09:02 PM
I love mice as pets, in an aquarium. But outside of that, if I see them, they die. They try to invade my house every fall/winter and I can't stand it. They are gross. I had one POOP in my silverware drawer. So no, mice get no love at this house.

GlamourGirl827
09-13-2013, 09:03 PM
Mice can and do survive much greater falls without apparent injury, so she probably did them much less harm than she intended.


I hope you are right. I hope the mom found all here babies and went some where else with them.

GlamourGirl827
09-13-2013, 09:07 PM
I love mice as pets, in an aquarium. But outside of that, if I see them, they die. They try to invade my house every fall/winter and I can't stand it. They are gross. I had one POOP in my silverware drawer. So no, mice get no love at this house.

When I was a kid we lived next to a field and the town cleared the field and our house was infested with mice. I do know the damage they can do and how gross the poop is when its everywhere. I remember many times opening drawers (dressers, desk etc) and finding nests with babies! I know my mom would catch them and when she had a lot, drive to this other field and dump them there. I just can't imagine throwing a living creature, and I definitely couldnt kill them, not unless it was attacking me or my kids...and that would be one ballsy mouse!

Aclai4067
09-13-2013, 09:08 PM
So, I initially read this as moose, not mouse and thought "and the mother didn't kill her?!!!"

doingmybest
09-13-2013, 09:11 PM
I can't stand people who do things like that.

A coworker once joked that when he was a kid, he and his friends used to insert firecrackers in cats' rectums and light them! He got a major lecture from me that ended with, " how would you like it if someone did that to you, ***hole!"

People like that should be charged with cruelty to animals and punished severely!

GlamourGirl827
09-13-2013, 09:19 PM
So, I initially read this as moose, not mouse and thought "and the mother didn't kill her?!!!"

:lol: I wish it was a moose, then it would have thrown her over the fence!

GlamourGirl827
09-13-2013, 09:26 PM
I can't stand people who do things like that.

A coworker once joked that when he was a kid, he and his friends used to insert firecrackers in cats' rectums and light them! He got a major lecture from me that ended with, " how would you like it if someone did that to you, ***hole!"

People like that should be charged with cruelty to animals and punished severely!

In my life experience, people that are cruel to animals for entertainment, are not very compassionate people to their fellow man either. Typically they are also the same people that would yell out "fatty" while driving by an overweight person. There is a lack of ability to empathize. I'm talking people that for no other reason than amusment, injury, torture or kill animals. I have never met a person that is a caring spouse, loving parent, kind friend, that has a history of this type of behavoir. So I think it speaks volumes to the kind of person they are. Whether they were born defective and are unable to fully empathize with living creatures or they were abused themselves, I dont know, but I think these kinds of people are just water down versions of sociopaths...they never quite amount to full fledged murdering and cereal killing, but the potention is there...

And for what its worth, this coworker of my husband's is a litte nasty. She has posted other rude stuff unrelated to animal torture, and I heard a story from another nurse that this woman can be kind of mean..so like I said, this is someone that has already had other "actions" that say she possesses the personality of someone that I would find less than becoming, so this just adds to that...:mad:

Only Believe
09-13-2013, 09:52 PM
Yes I think that's cruel!
I don't want them in the house but If I see them outside they won't be harmed by me.

Fresh Feeling
09-13-2013, 10:08 PM
I'm not impressed :/ My partner and I are strong believers in respect for life. My partner even more so than me. He saves every spider in the house, moth, fly... anything really. Let alone a family of mice. We ALL only get to live once and I'd rather go to the effort to remove something from the house than hurting it to get the job done quicker. Where's the love!

vintagecat
09-13-2013, 10:12 PM
A couple of years ago we were cleaning out a mature bin of compost to make another raised bed garden. We had gotten pretty much to the bottom and there was a mouse nest, with babies in it. Mom had scattered.

Since we caved in the roof with our digging we carefully gathered the babies, (all unharmed) uncovered the nest, put them in and placed a cedar shingle over the top in place of the roof hoping that mom would return and move the babies elsewhere. We quit digging for the day and stayed out of the area.

The next afternoon the babies were moved, we went on digging and thought nothing of it having rather large firewood stacks in the area, we thought that was where they had gone. A few weeks later we note mouse skittles in our greenhouse and a bag of grass seed chewed at the corner. They moved into our greenhouse!

No good deed goes unpunished.

We waited another 2-3 weeks until the babies were old enough to be on their own and cleared out the greenhouse completely, covering their entry points with steel flashing. I would till do the same thing, save the critters and fortunately we don't have lyme disease (or ticks) nor do we have hantavirus to be concerned abut but in Kansas we are getting outdoor (barn) cats to take care of those critters near the house.

I actually like rodents but I don't want them in my house or outbuildings. I think your friend was inhumane and what does she have against those neighbors anyway?

lanabug
09-13-2013, 10:27 PM
Not sure if I want to cry or vomit. Definitely cruel and COMPLETELY unnecessary... all of the stories here are so upsetting. I hate people sometimes!

Only Believe
09-13-2013, 10:30 PM
I loved your story vintagecat. It really made me smile.
I've always loved animals and growing up I was always finding and caring for strays, injured birds or whatever else came my way.. and even made a pet out of a little mouse in the house once. LOL
If we found anything dead (mostly bugs and birds) me and my little brother would have a proper funeral for it..
Stories of animal cruelty really hurts my heart and makes me cry.

CanadianMomma
09-13-2013, 10:48 PM
I'm an animal (any creature really) lover. Even my two year old now wants to bring any bug we find in the house outside to let it go. I have to agree with you GlamourGirl, I honestly think people who are capable of harming animals for fun have the potential to develop into full sociopaths, and I don't say this lightly.

Growing up my brother had a few incidents with family pets, starting from a very young age as a toddler when my Mom was out and came home to be told he had dropped a puppy and it had died. He also caused the death of his pet guinea pig by jumping on the bed with it. When we got older we had three small dogs and one was more or less my dog. I took him with me when I moved away to college but then didn't have the time for him, my brother had spent alot of time with him when we all lived at home and asked to have him. I agreed and a few years later he told us he had found the dog dead one morning. We learned later from his then girlfriend at the time that he had killed the dog. I actually feel really bad for his girlfriend because she is a huge animal lover, she left him shortly after.

It's been a few years and since then my brother has been under various meds for different things like add. I've had some conversations with him where he talks about how he doesn't understand where other people come from, he doesn't really have an ability to empathize. I don't doubt he's capable of developing serious problems.

Mice might be any easy one to understand not wanting around, but to throw a nursing mother and her babies over a fence.... that's got to take a cold heart.

mariposssa
09-14-2013, 01:21 AM
Throwing a mouse over a fence is not going to kill it. It isn't nice and it isn't going to keep them from coming back. Mice are very hardy creatures. We live in the country where there is no shortage of field mice. When I was a kid we had some mice in our home...it is pretty common in old houses in the country. They would literally chew their feet off to get out of traps. A toss over the fence is kind of mean; but, it really served no purpose. Mice can climb fences and walls and I bet it survived and went right back in her yard if that is where it wanted to be. They can squeeze through a very small hole, like the size of a nickle or a dime. I am sure her fence has holes bigger than that.

Leaves
09-14-2013, 08:34 AM
I understand the damage that mice can cause, but I wouldn't want to remove them by hurting them.

We had a mouse move into our kitchen when I was in a student house at university- we knew it was there but it kept evading capture. One evening my housemate was cooking when the mouse came out, so he upended the recycling bin and trapped the mouse inside, kinda like you do with spiders and a glass. We put some cheese in for the mouse and then walked the bin to a local country park to set it free. Much more humane!

Only Believe
09-14-2013, 08:46 AM
I understand the damage that mice can cause, but I wouldn't want to remove them by hurting them.

We had a mouse move into our kitchen when I was in a student house at university- we knew it was there but it kept evading capture. One evening my housemate was cooking when the mouse came out, so he upended the recycling bin and trapped the mouse inside, kinda like you do with spiders and a glass. We put some cheese in for the mouse and then walked the bin to a local country park to set it free. Much more humane!

That is so Sweet! :) I've caught them like that and let them go outside. Hubby says "why'd you do that for? They will just come back inside" The other day we saw one eating the seeds dropped from our bird feeder. I asked hubby what he would do if he saw it out there again. (I've asked him not to hurt it) and he said he wasn't going to bother it. :mouse:

MAK247
09-14-2013, 10:20 AM
It was definitely cruel, though pointless. The mom was most likely unharmed unless the fence blocks a huge drop off or something, the babies it depends on if she came back for them.

When I was still living at home, we ended up with a mouse problem. My dad got some tiny havahart traps and set it up to catch them. Instead of letting them free he kept them in an aquarium because it was cold outside. lol He fed them mouse food, got them wheels and such, and kept catching more. Eventually one made a nest and had a litter of babies.

I finally convinced him to let them go outside because the others would eat the babies, he tried to let them all out except for the mom, she managed to escape anyways with two babies still attached nursing. He tried nursing the ones she left behind but sadly they only made it a few days. :(

After that, he stopped keeping them in a tank, but I had to fuss at him because he let them go at the fence line, finally I had to paint one with nail polish to prove they were coming right back...Sometimes I wonder, who is the kid and who is the parent. lol

GlamourGirl827
09-14-2013, 03:12 PM
ok so the update is a few people replied to her that it was mean and she responded that she felt bad but was scared of them...

I still think she's full of poo because she wasnt too scared to scoop them up in something a throw them over the fence. And someone actually commented "They are rodents. Not cute, not sweet, just lice ridden, flea bitten disease spreading rodents!"

What is freaking wrong with people? Why so much hate for an animal minding its own business? How much energy do these women waste hating small animals? And what kills me is the OP is always posting god stuff, love god, god loves, she's all about god...I don't think god would appreciate you chucking one of his creatures over a fence ( with new babies too)...that is definitely not something Jesus would do!!

I don't get it. Personally I'd rather spend time with a mouse ( I think they are cute!) or a frog, snake, lizard etc then some people I know...what's that saying...the more people I meet the more I like my dog...I dont have a dog but I agree anyway!

kaplods
09-14-2013, 04:33 PM
I love animals, but I eat meat and am not ashamed of it. I consider nothing inherently immoral about hunting and killing for defense or food or even other reasons (whether it's done by humans or lions).

I do understand fear and revulsion of pest animals, because (even the cute, wee babies) CAN carry disease and parasites.

Personally, I believe killing the mouse and her litter quickly would have been more humane than dumping them over a fence or even relocating them to an open field.

Mice are prey animals for most carnivorous and omnivorous species. Luckily, or we'd be hip-deep in them. Predation is not always quick and rarely painless.

Even releasing a house mouse into a field increases it's chances for a painful, slow death, because the mouse's natural instincts would prevent it from "choosing" to be so exposed, especially with babies.

So, in that regard, relocating mom and litter to a park would probably be far more dangerous to them than dumping them over a fence or into a garbage can.

A mouse's life is a hard, painful, short one, so anything a human can do, short of deliberate torture is pretty low on the horror scale for a mouse.

A lot of things humans do out of sympathy for wildlife often make the animal's situation worse, so "leaving it alone" or even "killing it" are usually better choices than moving it, whether out of fear or a desire to help.

mzshaunna
09-14-2013, 08:10 PM
That is really sad :( I cant stand mice or rodents but I would never hurt them like that

GlamourGirl827
09-14-2013, 08:38 PM
That is really sad :( I cant stand mice or rodents but I would never hurt them like that

I think that this is a very kind hearted position. I'm not saying my facebook friend has to love mice and keep them as pets, but its mean to throw them over the fence. In fact it takes an even kinder person not to hurt something (mouse or whatever) simply because they dont like it. :)

kaplods
09-14-2013, 09:47 PM
I understand and empathize with BOTH sides of this (and many other sides besides).

If humans (and only humans) stopped killing mice, we ALL would soon be overrun with them. They'd be spreading disease and parasites everywhere.

There are places where rodents currently do not carry disease, primarily because humans and animals kill mice in those places in great numbers. Stop the killing and you get more disease.

This is true for deer populations too. Stop killing deer and the deer overpopulate and then die of starvation and disease.

Parts of Australia have seen rodent and rabbit population explosions so great that the animals literally carpeted the ground over large areas and destroyed entire crops in a matter of hours or less.

There's also the double-standard of "mammalian cuteness." If we were talking about cockroaches, snakes or spiders, fewer people would sympathize. Even if it were a rat, it would be a different conversation (more people are afraid and hateful of rats than mice).

Responding in fear/revulsion, people often behave aggressively -very often it's instinct.

I love mice and always thought people who feared them were ridiculous. Then in college, some prankster let a half dozen or so loose on the crowded stairs to the cafeteria. These were white, pet store mice, so no threat to anyone, but having one crawl over my foot gave me heebee geebees I'd never imagined. I didn't try to kill the mice, but I did get a flash of understanding why some people did.

Then fifteen years later, I was living in a house in the country and got mice. My cats found the first one, but being city cats, didn't know what to do with it. I tried to pick up the cat (carrying the mouse) hoping to carry the cat outside (with the hope she'd drop it outdoors). Instead she dropped it the second I picked her up. Then I'd hop around trying to avoid the mouse while the other cat caught the mouse. So I'd pick HER up and try again. After a few minutes of this, I realized the attempt was futile and I bought traps. Killing traps, because relocating rodents in the country isn't a practical or particularly humane solution and I am convinced that a quick death is more humane than becoming a meal or play toy for a stray, feral, or wild animal.


It's "natural" for mice (even babies) to become food for other animals, so I don't feel too bad about their deaths (if I don't know the mice personally), but once I "meet" a critter, I feel responsible for it, but I don't think killing or disposing of rodents is necessarily immoral.

I felt responsible for the mouse my cats found, but killing it with a killing trap was the more responsible act, I firmly believe. I regretted doing so, but letting the mouse go would not have saved it's life or prevented it from suffering. Mice don't usually die of old age unless they're pets.

I respect life, but I respect death too, and its place in the natural order. I don't think a mouse has any more or less value in the world than a cockroach. I do place more personal (but not absolute) value on human life, but I consider that "species loyalty." I'm sure a wild gorilla places more value on it's fellow gorillas, especially those it knows than on mine.


Ultimately, humans are animals. We have the same instincts, and it's sometimes hard to override the destructive instincts, especially when fear gets involved.

I think it's perfectly understandable that a fearful dog might bite or that a fearful human might dispose of a family of rodents in a less than compassionate way.

Not exactly a pinnacle moment of human compassion, but not unforgivable in my opinion, either.