KEEP in mind that there are a few generalizations and stereotypes in this thread! No e-yelling is allowed! ;)
I was thinking about double standards and how men get away with farting, burping, and swearing in any public environment. It's just "guys being guys" yet when women do such things, it's classless, unrefined, uncooth, ill-bred, and who knows what else?! Men are statistically proven to make more money. In a large portion of the money making fields such as IT, upper management, and municipal jobs, men are seen as more competent, whereas women really have to prove themselves in most circumstances. Men can have as much sex as they want, and it's being a stud, but if a woman does the same, it's being a s|ut. Men are praised for excessive sexual behavior, and women are (mostly) still shunned. It's like men want us to be sexual yet not TOO sexual - WTF? Fat men aren't looked down upon nearly as much as fat women, and if a guy has a beer gut and is lounging by the pool, he may still be able to get women to talk to him, whereas if a woman is sitting in a bikini with a gut hanging out, she most likely won't even turn a male head (except a disgusted man or a chubby chaser)!
HOWEVER, the double standards for women are just as appealing. Infact, I think we actually have it off better than our male counterparts! Think about it:
We don't have to be tough. We don't have to get into fights. If we walk away, we're not wussies. We don't have to know anything about mechanical matters and if we have a flat tire, all we need to do is wave frantically for some (male) roadside assistance. We don't have to be good at sports. We don't need to carry heavy objects; that's what MEN are for. We can be gentle and soft-spoken and it's thought of as being feminine. We can be b!tchy and angry and it's thought of as agressive, whereas angry men are just cavemen with too much testosterone and no self control. We can pout and get our way. If we're into cars and sports, then we're just considered tomboyish, even by the most small minded of people, but if men are into hair, make-up, and fashion, then they're considered "nelly f@gs" who deserve an *** whoopin' by this same crowd. And speaking of the gays, if we DO happen to be homosexual or bisexual, we have it off MUCH easier than the men do! When WE'RE homosexual, society tries to eroticise us, but when MEN are homosexual, society wants to deny the fact that they even HAVE sex! I would say that we can wear men's clothing and get away with it, whereas men wearing women's clothing is taboo, but in recent years, this has changed: there is this trend called "emo" where men wear tight shirts and women's pants. Some younger rocker guys shop in the women's department as well.
And men discuss really disgusting things amongst each other! I'm glad to usually not be a part of that :barf:
Who do YOU think has it off easier? Why? And what makes you so proud of being a woman (or man, since there's a few of 'em on here!)? What are your thoughts on double standards?
10-05-2007, 12:21 AM
Good question, N-Shane! (<-- your new rapper nickname as you put it! :D )
I am so glad I'm a woman, too. But I consider myself a very strong woman in that even though I can change a tire, I would rather have a man do it! ;)
It's a catch 22 sometimes for women, esp. in the workforce where we want to have a career and a family and it's an issue that's very talked about right now. It's like were almost expected to be SuperWomen, but don't let our opinions get in the way of making dinner and washing the clothes, ya know? (and look sexy, blah, blah, blah...) I dunno... I think as long as you're happy and feel like you make a difference, then go for it or whatever one desires.
I like to achieve balance b/t (for lack of a better word) a "kept" and "independent" woman... so, I guess I like it when my hubby spoils me, but I'd be just as happy if I got in on my own, too!! :dizzy:
You make some good points, though. I just think it's OK to be who we are and to never stop learning and never cease the desire to always become a better person. I think the world could use some more happy people!! :flow1:
10-05-2007, 01:06 AM
I despise the glass ceiling, but I figure it balances out because even though all the guys I go out with make more money than I do, they pay for EVERYTHING. I can't complain about that. I don't know how it'll be if I ever get married, but right now, it's awesome. And I take pride in the fact that even though they pick up the tab, I very well could if I wanted to. I wouldn't want to do anything "manly" in public even if it was socially acceptable to do so. And I consider any person who has promiscious sex a slut. I think men only praise other men for abundant sexual conquests -- and who cares about the opinions of men anyway :)
10-05-2007, 01:20 AM
I don't understand double standards at all!
I never was indoctrinated with them early on, so I kind of went on in ignorant bliss until an embarassingly old age when I became aware of those things you mentioned, one by one, and was always shocked to discover them! But I just pay them no mind since they don't serve me!
I don't really care much what people stereotypically think. I can't understand it anyway.
Especially the thing about men picking up the tab. I really don't get that one.
making fart noises and drinking beer.
10-05-2007, 02:50 AM
I definitely love being a woman! Not only do I not have to carry the heavy bags or be good sports, but when I do I get praised!
Ex 1: I ride dirtbikes. Full size ones no less. When a guy rides by on the same bike they always do a double take. I'm the cool wife that actually rides at the track instead of sitting in the truck asking if it's time to leave yet. Yet I'm not very good. I ride in a straight line, I know how to be safe, and hold my line. But I don't jump or go fast. If a man rode the same way he'd get punted off the track and teased.
Ex 2: My husband and I are both very active. Besides the dirtbikes we compete in 5Ks, 10Ks, triathlons, duathlons, etc. He smokes me. Like ridiculously faster than me. Yet when we tell people I am the one that gets all the praise. They can't believe I race and workout and lift weights, etc even though as slow a snail. In addition even at my slower pace I have the potential to place in the top 3 sometimes (and have!) whereas he never would.
10-05-2007, 10:08 AM
Awesome, stacy! I don't ride dirt bikes but I'm pretty into BMX, which is also almost exclusively male. Most guys think it is pretty hot that I can do BMX tricks. I'm also pretty good at sports, and guys are impressed that I can throw a football just as well as most men.
WOW, you've placed in the top 3 at a triathlon?! Did you win anything? I'm actually looking into participating in one, though I have the feeling that I'd be the very last to finish :lol: You must not ACTUALLY be slow as a snail.
aymster, you are so right about women these days being expected to be Super Woman. The standards are much more 'lax for men - they just have to work. If they don't look sexy, it's because they worked too hard to bother. So what, it doesn't matter, they're MEN :dizzy: <----sarcasm.
When I'm dating guys, I definitely want them to spoil me. I want them to pick up the tab for a date, yet I somehow feel selfish if they do. When people give me things, I love and enjoy it, but feel somehow like I'm taking advantage of them and want to make sure I can reciprocate in some way or another. I guess I'm just not the princess/diva type; I've been told I'm really easy to please, and I don't disagree. By default, I'm pretty much the independent.
HarpoChicoGroucho - yeah, if anyone, male or female, does gross, manly things in public, a little part of me will go, "...ew!" Oh! And don't forget the *** scratching! :barf: Those things are pretty gross, but the other part of me just thinks it isn't right that men can do them and women can't. I personally don't think promiscuous sex should be praised, either, though I have some friends who are pretty promiscuous but claim to not be sluts because they have sex for themselves and not for men. Good for them. I will now call them "sexually independent women" :D
10-05-2007, 11:52 AM
In the tri I got 3/4 in women's clydes (140+lbs), but considering there was only 4....
I have placed top 3 in a 5K too. 20-24s tend to be the slowest group so I'm lucky for two more years. Then I'll get smoked.
Most races they hand out medals for top 3 in each category and/or a plaque (sp) for first.
10-06-2007, 10:05 AM
I think this topic is so interesting. My DH and I have talked about this a few times. I would say that when you are a single woman that women have it much easier. We get drinks bought for us and can dress how we want. We have made great advances in the workplace as well. I have managed men and surpassed them career wise both in money and respect in my industry. I know that at the very highest levels, we have to "play games" in order to be heard but I feel we are capable of doing this quite well.
However, I do think that once we settle down, have children, and buy a home, the men have the advantage. I LOVE being a mom but it does mean that I have to kiss ever boo boo and stay home when she is sick, go to every dr.'s appt., stay up all night when she has nightmares, hold and rock when she cries, and generally teach most of the things that need to be taught. On TOP of this, I have a career (I own 2 small businesses), and do most of the cleaning, almost all of the cooking, I plan every vacation and weekend trip, decorate for every holiday, balance the checkbook and pay the bills, and so much more. Its exhausting. When we moved, yes my DH lugged most of the boxes and put them in the rooms but who do you think packed the boxes and put everything away in the right place? I dont know. Just naturally if we are mothers there is so much pressure to do it all. Men have 10% of running a homes responsibility. My DH mows the lawn and takes out the trash and occasionally cooks a meal. He gives DD baths and did change diapers when she was a baby but that is about it. There are times I come home after working a sat and he has been home all day that he says "whats for supper?" when I walk through the door. (did change THAT one real quick). The main problem is that he just doesnt get it. And I know that many men fall into this trap. We have a new society image where women can "do it all" and are expected to accomplish this all with perfect hair and nails and a beautifully decorated home with everything in its place.... It can get quite tiring. THAT being said, I would never trade with my DH. As exhausing as it is, I LOVE that my daughter wants mommy when she cries. I love that she learned this new thing that I taught her. I love when we get compliments on our house and DH says- Well, Laurie did all this!!" or when we have people over and he says " My wife is such a great cook". I am proud of what I have accomplished professionally and personally and feel like I have "done it all" with a little style. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.....
10-07-2007, 04:54 AM
Me and my husband have had many conversations about this type of thing since I hate double standards and we find social issues interesting. I can be good at sports (i'm not now because I haven't played sports in a long time but if I had a bit of practice again I'm sure it would come back to me). I used to play basketball, and baseball and I could play football okay in a social setting. Whenever I was playing sports I was called a tomboy. I also was a dancer, you name it I did it and I consider dance a sport. But then whenever I was dancing I was told by some other girls/guys you're too girly and that they thought I wouldn't like 4-wheeling or going out and doing something that is considered tomboyish for girls. In regards to dance being a sport, it used to make me very angry when people would say or imply that cheerleading or dancing is not a sport. UHH excuse me how did I get this six-pack and ripped body then and I sweat profusely?? I eventually decided that people like that were just jealous that they couldn't bust a move on the dance floor to look cool lol! In regards to the gay/lesbian issue, my husband is a typical guy who thinks gay guys are gross but that lesbian women are hot. That irritates me to no end. He is also very old fashioned in the belief that only men and women should be in an sexual relationship with each other and that's due to our religious beliefs and how we were raised. I'm more tolerant and have no problem hanging out with people that have different sexual preferences. I just don't want to hear the gory details of people's sex life and that goes for both straight or gay/lesbian people. I do think men have it much harder if they are gay or if they are just more feminine because then they're looked down upon and thought of as "weird" and girls secretly wonder "is he gay or just psycho weird?".
The double standard I have anxiety over now is being SUPER WOMAN now that I'm married. I feel like I need to have a super clean house since I was taught that cleanliness is next to godliness and that you need to take pride in your home and things you own, be a good cook and gracious hostess with tons of fab things to eat in case a guest just pops by unexpected. If and when I have kids, I feel like I'm supposed to be super mom and be super involved with my kids and be a great cook and have a perfect home and have a great career all at the same time. I feel a bit like a failure/loser since I am not done with college and I'm almost 24. So when it comes time for me and my husband to discuss kids more seriously, we're going to have a lot of talking to do about responsibility/money and career decisions we might have to make in order to have time to be involved with our kids.
10-07-2007, 11:56 PM
When I was single, I didn't think twice about the fact that I played both male and female roles for myself: picking up the tab, changing flat tires, fixing a clogged sink, killing spiders, etc. Dark alleys and car troubles never even quickened my pulse. I could fix the toilet and decorate the bathroom, no problem!
Now, I appreciate the fact that my fiance gets the heavy lifting boy stuff. I haven't become helpless but I feel as if I'm finally allowed to be truly feminine. I do get frustrated when he suggests that he is better able to address home improvement projects but, at the end of the day, I didn't really want to install a garbage disposal anyway ;) I'd much rather go shopping and get my nails done...
10-08-2007, 04:06 PM
I've come across some really uncomfortable situations during information sessions for various careers at college. Most recently, I had dinner with some higher ups in the State Department with 2 other girls. We were flat out told that if we planned on having a family, this was not the career for us unless we married men who wanted to be stay at home fathers and had no problem traveling around the world with us. And come to think of it, all of my friends had FATHERS working in foreign service, never a mother. Occasionally someone had an unmarried aunt working in the foreign service, but never with a family.
It's really frustrating because a lot of my career goals that I have worked SO hard for are obsolete if I want to have children before I'm 40.
Also, in other aspects of government, I'm interested in more "masculine" roles like national security, NATO, etc. Women in international relations are supposed to focus on poverty (which is technically my major's focus, but in interest of security), soft economics, etc etc. It's frustrating that it's harder to break into that kind of career.
Also, growing up in the Deep South, being driven and ambitious as well as a female is a HORRIBLE, SHAMEFUL thing. I was told for years to forget being a neurosurgeon (before I discovered my aversion to blood :P) and later to forget working for the CIA or State Department because I should get married and have babies. Maybe I could be a teacher or nurse, but I shouldn't reach too far! When I went away to college 1000 miles away to one of the best schools in the country, many of my friend's parents told my parents that it was a waste of money and time and that I should just go to the local state school. Blah :P
10-09-2007, 09:00 AM
oh man, charolastra00! Gender roles ARE really enforced in the deep south. I'm not originally from the south, but I live here now, and I see how gender binary people are here and it almost surprises me! Women here are expected to get married and have families and work clerical jobs while their husbands work more demanding careers and bring home the money. I have female neighbors who have never had a job in their entire lives because they got married at 18 and instantly popped out kids, turning into stay-at-home moms while their husbands work constantly. No no, I am NOT dissing stay-at-home moms; my mother was one and she did an outstanding job... but I'm just saying that some women would not settle for that!
Down here, women even keep their hair long because they think ALL their femininity is attached to it! If you are a woman with short hair, you are considered less feminine here and therefore less attractive. I obviously have yet to conform to that stereotype; I REFUSE to grow out my hair because I LIKE it short. :D
iamfire, daaaaang, girl, you sound like one **** of a strong lady! What do men generally think of your non traditional female hobbies? Some guys find stuff like that to be sexy, because it's unconventional and different, though others are intimidated by it because most men like to feel like the big guy... they don't want any woman to be stronger than they are! ;)
10-09-2007, 03:03 PM
I'd like to add a sentence re: what makes me proud to be a woman.
Women have the power to give or not to give life.
(Women do not have economic, social or political power. I think the two may be connected). Hmmmmm......
This is a good read. Spanks.
10-09-2007, 03:16 PM
I love being a woman because I am such a girly girl. I love makeup and hair products, perfume and bath products, nail polish....flowers, jewelry....I love it all. I can cry if I want and show whatever emotion I feel. I can be soft and caring to my neighbors and friends. And, being married is not so bad for me. My hubby does all of the cooking, he will wash dishes, do laundry, take care of the children, grocery shop, wash the truck and car, mow the grass....he is truly my partner and I am not required to do more just because I am a woman.
10-09-2007, 03:37 PM
The double standards here are awful.
I am the only woman in town who, at the age of 27, does not have a single kid.
Really, I've asked around and the oldest woman someone knows who doesn't have a kid is 24, and now she's pregnant.
I makes it so that I have no female friends here. I've tried, we have nothing to talk about. All I get are the 20 or so questions about when am I going to have a kid, wouldn't I love to have a kid, etc. And the vast majority of the women are home makers.
At work, I use this to my advantage. Most men, especially in the smaller towns, have never had a female boss. They usually don't expect much from me. Especially in archaeology. Once, when the guys were digging too slow I made them get out of the pit, and dug faster myself. After that (and all the teasing they got from the rest of the crew), I never had a problem.
By far my favorite line was from the mayor of a town I was working at. I was with my boyfriend and I was talking about how I was sore from all the digging. The mayor looked at my boyfriend and said "and you let her do that?"
Ha, as if he could stop me.
10-09-2007, 04:45 PM
I would say that we can wear men's clothing and get away with it, whereas men wearing women's clothing is taboo
Except we can't go around with our shirts off like men do. Course no one every wants to fondle their breasts, with or without a shirt. :D
Aside from all the general human stupidity double standards, what about that daggone mother nature? Men don't have to bleed profusely every month, swell, cramp, get irritable, they don't have to force 7 to 12 pounds out of a space made for 1 pound. And they think THEY are the stronger sex. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
10-11-2007, 11:06 AM
Oh, come on! You know we let them think they are the stronger sex so they will lift heavy stuff!!! It saves a lot of time and eyelash batting ;)
I don't know a single man who actually believes he could handle monthly cramps and childbirth. I love it when they describe a medical problem as more painful than childbirth, though. I laugh and tell them to go say that to their mothers. Their looks of shear terror are fun ;) Go moms!
I get the kids thing and my fiance gets the "You let her do that?" comment all the time. My personal favorite is when a husband asks, "You let her do that?" and the wife obviously does the same type of thing but he has no knowledge/control. It makes me wonder all men believe there is some Santa Claus-Easter bunny-mythical man somewhere who actually has control of his wife...