Hi, Everyone,

Here's my "official" version of the fable:

The Hare and the Tortoise

A hare met a tortoise one day and made fun of him for the slow and clumsy way in which he walked.

The tortoise laughed and said, "I will run a race with you any time that you choose."

"Very well," replied the hare, "we will start at once."

The tortoise immediately set off in his slow and steady way without waiting a moment or looking back. The hare, on the other hand, treated the matter as a joke and decided to take a little nap before starting, for she thought that it would be an easy matter to overtake her rival.

The tortoise plodded on, and meanwhile the hare overslept herself, with the result that she arrived at the winning-post only to see that the tortoise had got in before her.

Moral: Slow and steady wins the race.

This comes from a book handed down from my grandmother to my mother to me. The book is so old it doesn't have a copyright date or an author/editor's credit.

That fable has been the motivation for us turtles for about three years. Someone on the ancient WW forum mentioned the fable and I discovered it was very motivational for me. I talked about it in posts and other people said that the tortoise philosophy worked for them, too. So, I started a thread for us turtle types.

We work toward accepting that our bodies have a natural speed of weight loss when we choose to live a healthy life, instead of "going on a diet". Many of us have experienced "the diets" as go on/lose weight-- go off/ gain the weight plus more back.

We choose to perservere with each choice we make throughout the day. We believe that choosing to be slow, steady turtles helps us to learn the skills we need to in order to lose and keep off the weight. Our main focus is to become the healthiest people we can be.

So, welcome to all who realize that losing and maintaining a weight loss is a lifestyle change. And who want support as we all learn the skills we need to successfully make the changes that will allow us to reach our goals.

Lin

Hi, Turtles,

Erin, thanks for the info I requested. I've copied it off. I hate math, but this is a good cause.

So glad to hear that you're eating the calories your body needs. I'm sure it's hard to do after eating under for so long. You're not used to eating that much food.

I'm so glad the charm bracelet worked out for you. Enjoy wearing it.

Lauren, do you ever wonder what goes on at the meetings where dumb ideas like sending the folks on your street little construction worker dolls get approved? I'd rather have the tree, too. Don't blame you for crushing the daylights out of the doll.

Congratulations on getting in exercise, even if it wasn't at the level you feel you need. I agree that doing something is better than sitting on your behind. Have you considered doing your higher level workout tapes, but using Richard Simmons occasionaly to keep you from being bored? I don't think an occasional lower level workout would hurt your overall fitness level, especially if you combine it with a walk that day.

Glad to hear that you're doing some writing again. I hope you enjoyed your time with the pet photographer. That's really interesting about the turtles. Do you suppose that's another aspect of turtle behavior we ought to try to emulate? Just take off and go for it.

I've been in TOM, don't care mode these past few days. I'm getting back on track now. I'm learning how to use my plan to reach all of my goals. I've had to adjust it, but not abandon it. So, that's good. That's such a vague explanation of what I'm doing, but the details would be too much, even for this prolific writer to post. Anyway, things are going OK.

My son ought to be in summer school, first day today. We had two problems with this. The class was full, but I insisted that he be put in, anyway. I'm not going to see him lose that scholarship over 5 credits worth of English!! The other progblem was getting the bus schedule straight. It's really complicated to get from my mom's to the school. It's not his regular school, which would have been so much easier to get to. He has to be there at 7:35 am. If the bus doesn't show up, he's in trouble because the next bus takes a slightly different route and doesn't go past the bus stip he's suposed to get off at. But if he has to wait for the third bus, he'll be late. So, all we can do is hope that the buses are more reliable than usual for the next six weeks. Or that he can switch to the later class because of the bus issue.

My other son got his proposal off on time. He's working on details for the next stage, so he'll be ready to go when he gets picked. He has a lot of confidence in his idea. I think it's good, too, but there are a lot of proposals out there competing with his.

I'm starting to work on the pre-class homework for the novel-writing class I'm auditing. A lot of us auditors are doing the class as if we were participating. So, we're doing all of the assignments and critiquing each other. We expect to get a lot more out of it than those who just read the threads and work on their own. The only thing we won't be able to do is to ask questions during class time and get critiques from the teacher. She, obviously, has to focus on the participants. I'm really excited, but also a little scared. This will be the first time complete strangers will read anything I've written. My writing is the only thing I'm shy about, probably because it's important to me.

Gotta go. Happy turtlin'!

Lin
272/249/244

Hi, tortoises. We've been quiet lately.

I'm coming out of TOM throes finally. This has been an AWFUL month hormonally. I've started taking some herbal supplements to see if they help. Two weeks is too long to be anxious, depressed, emotional, weepy, etc.

I also dropped what turned out to be TOM weight and so am back in the 180s again. I'll take it.

Lin, I applaud you for doing the class, even if it scares you a little. I hope your fellow critics are helpful and mature about it. There's a good article in the recent "Writer's Magazine" about writing groups and dealing with criticism. In particular, I like what they said about when to disregard criticism and how to make it work for you. I'll look forward to hearing how it goes.

As for the exercise, your suggestion is a good one. Right now I'm just sticking with Richard because I can't face Charlene. She's SOOOOO boring. I'm thinking about joining DH's health club. He's all for it. It would be more $$$, though, so I dunno.

I go to Univ. of Michigan twice this week, probably -- to talk to two different people about work. One person is the development guy for whom I'll be doing some writing; the other is someone who may decide to hire me onto a software project if I can convince him or her that they need a usability person. It would be interesting to be working in my two main fields of expertise for the same client. (Though U of M is so vast, I'm sure the people in each department don't know each other.)

It's extremely hot here today, for Michigan -- a high of 93, and humid. I was going to mow the lawn, but now I think I'll wait until 9 p.m. or so (it stays light here until about 10 this time of year). Thank God for air conditioning.

Stay cool,

Lauren

Hi, Turtles,

I did the math, Erin, and the results were so interesting I decided to write another post to tell you all what they were. I'm math challenged--I recalculated and realized I had put in the wrong number for my height. My original answer was a little too low. Here's the accurate calculation (assuming my current age and height):

According to the BMR formula you posted, I should not eat below 32 points. (I converted the calories to points, assuming the rule of thumb: 1 point = 50 calories.) Well, my current range is 26-33. However, my weight has gone back up almost to the next higher point range, which would be 28-35. Using my current range, 26 points is 300 calories below my BMR. Using the higher range, 28 points is 200 calories below my BMR.

Just for the information, I calculated the BMR of the weight I'd like to be. 22 points is closest to the BMR requirements for my goal weight. If I were at the point where I had the last 20 pounds to lose, the WW range is 18-25. At 18 points, I'd be eating almost 200 calories per day less than the BMR for my height and age at 150 pounds. For younger people, the calorie count of the BMR is even higher, so they're eating even further below their BMR, if they eat low in their WW point range.

So, it seems as if WW is still using a little starvation here because the point ranges aren't adjusted for height and age. It's not as severe as with former programs because people who weigh more do eat more. Yet, it still seems like they set the ranges too low, unless they're assuming you will be eating at a higher caloric level than 50 cal./point because of the fiber and fat adjustments allowing more calories for the same points. I'm not sure about that.

But, I'm wondering if eating at the lower end of the range has something to do with why I never got past that tired stage when I was walking so much. Perhaps I wasn't eating enough to fuel that activity because I was using a caloric range that put me below my BMR. That constant fatigued feeling is one reason I stopped doing all that walking. If I could do the exercising without the fatigue, I'd do it because in every other way I felt good.

I'm also wondering if my body was feeling "dieter deprived" because of eating at the low end of the WW range, which isn't enough calories for my weight, height, and age. Maybe it isn't motivational issues that has caused this slump. Maybe it's that my body was trying to tell me that I wasn't quite eating enough.

Anyway, I plan to go back to the higher range until I've lost some weight. I'm also going to set 32 points as my rock bottom until I've lost more weight. I plan to recalculate my BMR as I lose weight and base my lowest points on that calculation, using the WW point ranges to set a top limit. It seems logical to adjust the points based on the data that applies to the body I have, rather than the generic body WW uses to set their ranges.

What I'm looking for is a calorie range I can live with. One that won't leave me feeling tired when I exercise. And one that will allow slow, but consistent weight loss. So, we'll see if adjusting things according to this little exercise in mathematics helps. If it doesn't, well, back to the drawing board, as the old cliche goes.

Talk to you all later. Happy turtlin'!

Lin

Lauren, I laughed my head off at the mental image of what you did to that little doll. What a slap in the face! I agree with Lin...oh, let's give them a cheap stupid little doll that they will love and cherish in exchange for their century-old tree! Someone should voo-doo once of those dolls and send it to them, along with a note detailing how they feel about the trade...

Not that I have a vindictive streak or anything. I'm just creative!

Congratulations on getting back into the 180s! WOO! You must be so pumped.

Lin, check out www.fitday.com (This is not to imply that you guys can't also, Lauren and Judy). I've been using it for the last week. Filling in past days, past exercise, etc. It's free, and it will track calories you eat as well as bmr, lifestyle, and activity calorie burn. It was amazing to me to learn that I was running an average of a 2000+ calorie deficit before I started upping points. No wonder I wasn't losing. Right now I'm running about a 1200-1500 calorie deficit. Still need to eat a bit more, but I honestly can't face it right now.

I agree with you on the walking/energy/more food thing. I had not realized how slowly I was functioning, but this last week of more food has been an eye-opener. I've been so much happier and so much more energetic this week. I've even had a couple of days where I did not* need a nap! I actually went swimming, one day at naptime. And amazingly, I haven't put on any weight! I know, I know, I know, I swore I was staying off the scale but I couldn't resist peeking. And you know what? No gain! YAY! It seems like my metabolism is turning back up, at least to the level that it can burn about 2000 calories a day. Now to just wait for it to turn all the way back on--that may take more food, heaven help me.

(fyi, my bmr is about 1900. Then figure in activity, lifestyle, etc, and I skyrocket up to almost 4000!).

I'm off to...eat something. SIGH. Bye Turtles!

Well, I just figured out my BMR, which came out to be about 1400. That's about 28 points (if we don't count 0-point veggies), which is one point over the top of my range. I only lose weight when I eat less than that now. When I eat 28-32 points, I maintain my weight right now. (As I well know, after nearly three months of doing just that.) When I eat less, I lose.

With exercise, the site I looked at (http://www.global-fitness.com/BMR_calc.html) says I need 3140 calories on days that I do my Richard Simmons workout and clean the house. I can tell you without hesitation that if I ate 70 points, I'd be gaining weight hand over fist. So ... numbers are helpful except when they aren't. Unless I'm seriously missing something here.

--Lauren

Lauren, all I can tell you is what the nutritionist told me:

Most people who try to watch what they eat are in a state of semi-starvation. When you start to eat up to your bmr (for you, 28 points) you'll most likely gain a bit until your body turns your metabolism back up and starts feeding ALL of its cells, not just the most vital. Once it turns up again, you will be able to consume that amount and the weight will come off with activity calories.

For me, it was very obvious that with the exercise I do, something had to give. Either I HAD to eat more, or I had to stop exercising. Exercising is my playtime, my me-time, and I am not willing to give that up. So, I had to start eating more. Now, because I do exercise so much, that little "until the body turns back on" gain is apparently not happening. And I do seem to be burning it off, waiting for the metabolism spike--I'm not gaining at ~39 points/day.

However, that's just my* body. If you have tried this and you don't respond to it, feel free to do what works for you. I'm just passing on information!

Someone on the men's health board observed the same thing--if he ate the 3250 calories that the "quick formula" said he needed to maintain his weight, he'd gain even more, not maintain. The answer to him was to shoot for 2800 calories and starting an exercise program, and see if something happened. Again, YMMV.

Hi Guys,
I'm here. Just much too exhausted to write. Spent the entire day outside with my class during our carnival. Am sunburned t prove it. Take care. This talk of points and basic metabolism rates, etc. is really interesting. I'll figure mine as soon as I'm on vacation.
Love,
Judy

Erin, I have no doubt whatsoever that you need to eat more food in order to be healthy (much less lose weight). Makes perfect sense with the amount that you work out. I think it's great that you're not gaining on 39 points and that you're feeling energetic. That's proof that you're going in the right direction.

One thing the BMR theory doesn't take into account is muscle mass. You've got loads; I've got very little. Maybe that accounts for some of the difference, too.

It does point out the importance of exercise, though. Just eating a lot less does help you lose weight, but it also really lowers your metabolism -- as the BMR info you mentioned points out.

Judy, sounds like you're ready for your vacation! Hope it comes soon.

--Lauren

Hi, Turtles,

Lauren, I agree that muscle mass must be taken into consideration. It takes more calories to maintain all that muscle Erin's built up than the wimpy muscles I have.

It also gets complicated when I converted the calories to points because each point represents a range of calories. I took a look at the calorie count of some foods that have the same points and realized that they could go as high as 70 calories per point, which can add a lot of calories to the same point range. I found a bread on my list that is so low-fat/high-fiber that it's 90 calories for 1 point. So, if you're packing your food plan with calorie dense foods, you may be eating your BMR calories at a lower point level than the rule-of-thumb conversion would indicate.

So, this is a good guideline and something else to consider when we're working out how to do this in the best way for our own bodies. It also tells me that it is complicated. I feel better about how difficult it is to be successful, especially when I realize how little we actually know about how it works.

Happy turtlin'!

Lin
272/249/244

Hi turtles..You have not heard from me for a long while, but believe it or not..i have been checking you out sometimes when I was gone..Why didn't I post??? becasue I have not been doing a blasted thing except eat!!! No exercise, no water, no nothing...but.....I am back.. I am Kathy From Calif, and I think I had a different name. I had to get a new one and since I am in Love with Miata's ....anyway. I rejoined WW on Sat. I am doing quilte well. I am drinking my water, and am planning to get out some videos to work out with until the time we get our in home bow flex that my husbands ins co is finally buying him.

I am starting out at 205.2. prob the biggest I have ever been. I am very excited to be doing this. Of course my body is trying to get use to not eating everytime my stomach gets a little bit empty. And it does happen every 3 hours, so I must prepare for a little bit of something to eat. i PLAN on drinking water at those times, to see if that will help.

Things in live are generally good. Husband has joined a new motorcycle group which is very good for him. He is disabled and this group is a bunch of vietnam vets, so they sit around, talk war stories, and bikes. Daughter in Louisana doing well, and the married one is home for awhile until she and dh move to sac to start nursing school. Still quilting although it has been sparse this month. did 3 during apr/may and now i am burnt. Unf i have to do a few for a library show and i am not anywhere near finnishing them. But I willl!!!

Well thanks for being here you guys...

KATHY

Welcome back, Kathy, and congratulations for such a good start to your return to WW! We're here to help you--or just to listen while you vent.

Lin and Lauren, yeah, the failure of any sort of generic formula (fitness wise) is that it doesn't account for muscle mass. That's why I don't like bmi as a gauge, either (weight/height squared)--bmi has some OLYMPIC ATHLETES as too heavy! So really, as Lin said, it's just a starting point. Lauren, you know your body very, very well, so go with what you know.

As for muscle upping your metabolism, I always used to tell my clients this: for every pound of muscle on your body, you have to burn ~50 calories a day to maintain it. For every pound of fat on your body, you have to burn about 2. So, do you want to lift weights to increase muscle mass? Oddly, they all said yes!

I talked to a friend of mine last night, who is a dancer and acrobat, and aspires to join Cirque du Soleil. He chided me gently for not eating enough and not judging my effort well (in order to offset it with more calories). I said yeah, I should have known better, but I was too close--and besides, as a fellow athlete he could understand how hard it is to judge effort. You can ALWAYS push harder. You ALWAYS have more to give (or at least expect that you should*). He immediately understood where my problem was coming from, and let me off the hook. Made me promise to continue to eat more, but otherwise let me off the hook.

Judy, I love carnivals and fairs. The yearly city fair, little counter-culture street fairs, Renaissance Festivals--I adore them. You must have had fun! Apply some aloe and take care of your skin, and dream of your vacation.

Off to the gym, Turtles, gotta help DH get in shape! (He decided he wanted to get fit last week and asked me to help him...and weighing in yesterday had lost 8.5 pounds!)(MEN!)

Hi, Turtles,

Welcome back, Kathy. I remember you. We wondered how you were doing.

Glad to hear you rejoined WW. You haven't give up. Well, if you have another slump, go ahead and post. The rest of us do. We keep supporting each other through whatever happens. That's part of the secret of our success.

Wow, Erin, dh goes from being less than supportive of your efforts to joining you, all in a matter of months. That's so great!! Hope I'm around to wish you a happy 25th anniversary. You will definitely make it, and more.

Hey, Judy. Hope you get a break and some rest, soon. Look forward to a longer post when you can.

Lauren, your comments about muscle mass and eating less lowering the metabolism without exercise are very true. I'm really thinking that I need to get back to exercising first, then deal with food. But I keep going back and forth between which baby steps to do first. I'll get it sorted out, I'm sure.

Things are going OK. I'm working on creating an HTML document to organize my book. The paper is getting too hard to keep track of. So, I'm going the high-tech route. Boy, am I ever rusty. But I have some great reference materials to remind me of the little things that slipped my mind during the time I haven't been writing HTML.

It looks like the book I've been working on is the best one of the ideas I had for my class. That's great. I'm looking forward to working harder on it. I've set some goals, thanks to this terrific web site. One of the members creates dares every couple of months people can use to challenge themselves. So, I'm taking on a few of the ones that match my personal goals.

WW is going so-so. I can't seem to get back to being completely OP. I'm in the couple steps forward and then a step back mode. I'll get there, I know. It's just going to take time to get the habits built back up. It's hard because my whole schedule is changing to fit around my work on the book. It's like starting a new job and with the class starting, the schedule changes again.

So, I'll keep plugging away. Happy turtlin'!

Lin

Hi, everyone.

Kathy, welcome back! It's great to see you. Lin is right; keep posting even when you slump. That's what we're here for.

Lin, sounds like you're having fun organizing your story. When will you start writing it? Or have you already?

Erin, you have inspired me. Last night I went and joined DH's health club. I'm not sure we'll be able to afford it over the long haul, but for now we're doing it. We went and worked out together, which he LOVED. I kept thinking of you and how you see that as your play time. I have decided to see it that way, too. So far my favorite part is sitting in the jacuzzi. I think I have a ways to go!

We swam for about a half hour (shared a lane -- BOY, is he fast!), and I swam a quarter of a mile. Then he went to yoga class and I hit the machines. I tried out a few to see what I liked -- the treadmill, one of the steppers (they have different kinds), the ski machine (now THAT'S a good workout), and the recumbant bike. I liked the latter best and was able to bike about 5 miles on it in 20 minutes. All in all, I got in about 1.5 hours of moderate exercise yesterday, which for me is great. Oh, this place also has ways you can check your heart rate while you're working out, which was helpful -- I had no idea what it should be. Turns out I was right in the zone most of the time, which surprised me because I didn't feel like I was breathing that hard.

Anyway, DH said he felt like we just had a date. He absolutely loved my being there. We're going again tonight.

Oh, after we got out of the pool I realized I'd forgotten to bring a bra! (I'd worn my suit under my clothes.) So I ended up working out in my bathing suit with clothes over it. Not ideal, but it worked. (They have one of those spinners that gets most of the moisture out of your suit; it worked pretty well.)

So yesterday I ended the day within my points and didn't use the exercise ones. It was great. I predict I'll be in virgin fat territory within the week.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/189/184 by birthday (Aug. 4)

Lauren, YAY! YAY YAY YAY YAY YAY! I'm so glad you had a good time! And a "date" with DH...and DH loved it...oh, I'm so glad for you!

I'll write more later, quick run across the street to the grocery store and then Spinning, but I just had to congratulate you!