Whole Foods Lifestyle For discussion of whole foods and more natural diets.

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Old 05-17-2008, 08:19 AM   #16  
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This forum is definitely about eating a whole foods diet, not shopping at Whole Foods. There are a lot of things (most things I'd say) at Whole Foods that I wouldn't consider to be whole foods products.

Today I'm going to a farmers market and possibly a co-op (the co-op is a bit of a drive but we'll see if we can fit it in). Although I know the co-op also sells processed products, I feel better about buying things there than Whole Foods (the grocery store). Same goes for Trader Joe's which I like a lot better as well.
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:57 AM   #17  
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Originally Posted by kaplods View Post
As a logical argument, this doesn't quite make as much sense as it seems to. Using the same argument, we shouldn't eat eggs, because they can be used as a hair conditioner. We shouldn't drink water, because it's used as an industrial coolant. We shouldn't ingest lemon juice or vinegar because they can be used as a household cleanser.
But those are all natural ingredients, not artificial chemical compounds made in a lab.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:23 PM   #18  
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It sounds like that "should" make a difference, but it doesn't necessarily. There are natural, dangerous compounds (like hemlock) and there are safe, manmade compounds (like acetic acid).

Acetic acid sounds super scary if you don't know that it is the zingy part of vinegar (and safe in dilute concentrations and dangerous in high concentrations).

Just because you don't know what some of the additives are, or how they're made doesn't make them unsafe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there are not additives of questionable value and healthfulness, but being manmade is not what makes them unsafe. Those that are unsafe, are unsafe because of what they do in the body, not because of how they are made, or because they have other uses (no matter how scary those uses sound).

Take salt. It has been used by man for thousands of years (by elephants, millions of years). Yet it makes a great cleanser, has industrial uses, and is deadly in high doses.

You can die if you drink too much water.

What makes something dangerous at one dose or situation and yet completely safe in another is not dependent on how it is made.

There are many logical arguments for avoiding certain, or even all manmade chemical ingredients, there's no reason to use an illogical one.

Last edited by kaplods; 05-17-2008 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:21 PM   #19  
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Well said, Kaplods! I have some "healthy" friends. ( I say "healthy" because they think any processed food is evil and that you can heal ANY sickness by fasting....)
I have to work hard to convince them of many of the things you are saying. While some processed foods are less than goods for, many are designed to provide nutrients that are hard to get otherwise. And before someone jumps on me and starts telling me that all nutrients can be obtained by fresh fruits, milk, and veggies, and that you are lazy if you can't find the time/money to shop in a farmer's market, please stop and realize that not everyone has access to fresh food like that everyday. College students, the elderly, lactose-intolerant, low socioeconomic families, or people who just don't live anywhere near a farmer's market sometimes (gasp) have to make do and buy processed food sometimes. Sometimes they do this because of budget, ease of location, or health reasons (I have a severe digestive disorder and and CANNOT have certain vegetables or dairy, so I have to get some nutrients in through food that has them added in, like fortified oatmeal, nutritional bars, etc)
I shop at my local farmer's market often, but that doesn't mean I can't learn about and appreciate certain processed foods.
Just a thought...
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:40 PM   #20  
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And before someone jumps on me and starts telling me that all nutrients can be obtained by fresh fruits, milk, and veggies, and that you are lazy if you can't find the time/money to shop in a farmer's market, please stop and realize that not everyone has access to fresh food like that everyday. College students, the elderly, lactose-intolerant, low socioeconomic families, or people who just don't live anywhere near a farmer's market sometimes (gasp) have to make do and buy processed food sometimes. Sometimes they do this because of budget, ease of location, or health reasons (I have a severe digestive disorder and and CANNOT have certain vegetables or dairy, so I have to get some nutrients in through food that has them added in, like fortified oatmeal, nutritional bars, etc)
Those two sentiments are not mutually exclusive.

It IS possible to meet the nutritional needs of most people using whole foods.

Not everyone has easy access to (in terms of availability, the ability to purchase and prepare etc.) these things.
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Old 05-17-2008, 03:30 PM   #21  
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All additives (natural and man-made) are not evil, and there are situations in which the benefits outweigh the costs (and vice versa) for some of them.

Cost, convenience, and availability, as well as personal philosophy are going to determine were a person draws the line for their food choices. Some people will choose to never eat anything that comes in a box or a can, others will choose to avoid any ingredient they can't pronounce, and of course some won't care at all.

I don't remember the title of a great book I got from the library once. It was a dictionary or encyclopedia of food additives, and it was fascinating as well as informative. I learned that some of the strangest sounding ingredients were actually natural ingredients. You can't always go by your unfamiliarity with an ingredient to evaluate its safety.

I just checked amazon and found some books that might be similar. I've added all three to my wishlist.

A Consumer's Dictionary of Food Additives: Descriptions in Plain English of More Than 12,000 Ingredients Both Harmful and Desirable Found in Foods

Food Additives: A Shopper's Guide To What's Safe & What's Not (Perfect Paperback)

Dictionary of Food Ingredients, Fourth Edition (Paperback)
by Robert S. Igoe (Author), Y.H. Hui (Author)
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Old 05-17-2008, 04:42 PM   #22  
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I'm not trying to make the case that all man-made compounds are dangerous, or that all naturally-existing substances are safe. But it's a hard sell to say that eating processed and prepackaged foods filled with a laundry list of additives is good for your health.

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Old 05-17-2008, 05:12 PM   #23  
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I agree, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making - that just because a substance (natural or man-made) has a "scary" use, doesn't make it unsafe.

As I said, there are many valid, logical arguments for avoiding certain, or even all man-made chemical ingredients. That isn't a justification for using bad logic - and the original premise was bad logic. The implication that a substance is dangerous or unhealthy because it has a "scary" use, or an "icky" origin has no validity. Guilt by an intangible association, just doesn't fly as a good argument.

The message should not be more important than the truth. That's called propaganda.

If I said oranges are healthy, because they're the only food that contains vitamin C - I would be using faulty logic. Althought the first part of the statement is true, it is not because of the reason I stated in the second part. Oranges are healthy, but not BECAUSE they are the only food that contains vitamin C.

Many chemical additives are unsafe, but not because they have scary industrial uses.

Last edited by kaplods; 05-17-2008 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 05-17-2008, 10:55 PM   #24  
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about the scary industrial uses for the artificial additives in your food, and I don't think people should be scolded for feeling this way. It's a perfectly natural response.

From my own view, the public has been far too acquiescent about the additives in their food. They should know about the chemicals in their food, whether or not they're synthetic or organic, and what other properties and effects those compounds have. If an article like this helps give people some perspective about what they're eating, great.

Does the fact that Stouffer's puts antifreeze in their Lean Cuisines mean that eating them will kill you? Of course not. The FDA wouldn't have approved those chemicals if they were clearly that deadly. But that doesn't mean people shouldn't know that, yes, propylene glycol is an antifreeze (though one that recognized as "generally recognized as safe" for consumption).

I think "scary, industrial" uses for chemicals are informative. Take acetic acid, which you referenced earlier. In dilute concentrations, it's perfectly safe to consume. In fact I had some earlier today on my salad. But it's also corrosive, and can be dangerous in greater amounts. And those dangerous properties are exactly why it can be used in crazy, industrial ways. In my lab, we keep acetic acid in a special chemical locker.

So no, I don't think "scary, industrial" uses for chemicals are irrelevant; they say a lot about what chemicals can do, and I think it's important for people to know as much as they can about the chemicals they consume.

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Old 05-17-2008, 10:57 PM   #25  
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I think it's important for people to know as much as they can about the stuff they consume.
I think that is one thing we can all agree on!
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Old 05-17-2008, 11:16 PM   #26  
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about the scary industrial uses for the artificial additives in your food, and I don't think people should be scolded for feeling this way. It's a perfectly natural response.
___________________

It is perfectly natural, and even reasonable, but it isn't always accurate, and that's my point. I'm not scolding anyone about being concerned. I'm just pointing out that "scary" isn't the whole story. You have to take that next step - to find out more. Because acetic acid in strong concentrations is a harmful substance, a person, if they did not know what it was, might assume (erroneously) that it is unsafe and would unnecessarily avoid any food that listed it as an ingredient.


Again, I am not saying that a person should not be concerned, just that they need to know the facts, not just what "seems" to be true on the surface. "Makes sense," is not the same as true.

For example, what would you assume, reading the following

Dihydrogen monoxide:
is called "hydroxyl acid", the substance is the major component of acid rain.
contributes to the "greenhouse effect".
may cause severe burns.
contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.
Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:
as an industrial solvent and coolant.
in nuclear power plants.
in the production of styrofoam.
as a fire ******ant.
in many forms of cruel animal research.
in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

Last edited by kaplods; 05-17-2008 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 05-17-2008, 11:17 PM   #27  
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Dihydrogen monoxide by the way, is water

but would you guess that from this website? They even apparently solicit donations to support their cause (which is what, banning water? They don't say) Obviously it's a hoax site, but that's not immediately apparent

http://www.dhmo.org/

Last edited by kaplods; 05-18-2008 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:21 AM   #28  
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Maybe I haven't made it clear that I believe there are valid reasons for avoiding some or even all additives. Even "I don't know what that is," is an awfully good reason in my book to avoid ingesting a substance. I don't even take a medication prescribed by my doctor until I understand the medication to my satisfaction. But "it's used in household cleansers" doesn't sway me as an argument, because so is water. I have to know more.

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Old 05-18-2008, 12:26 AM   #29  
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yeah, I've seen that sight. It's a good read and helps put things in perspective. I agree that most nutrients can be found in whole foods, but for simplicity's sake, we sometimes have to get them from foods with additives. Do we want to load our bodies up with a bunch of crap? No; but some additives are pretty innocent, and if we took the time to research we would realize that. Personally, I'm hoping all the preservatives will "preserve" me and keep me young looking! :laugh:
I really like this thread--we have a good discussion going
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:48 AM   #30  
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Personally, I thought the reason to avoid frozen prepackaged dinners was the taste Although I know many people have used them to lose weight, I think you can also make your own frozen prepackaged dinners (or at least microwaveable dinners/lunches). Of course it takes more time than picking something out of the frozen section in a supermarket.
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