[Palestrina]

I am not sure why people jump to the conclusion that if you're not on a popular diet it means that you're eating junk food all the time. I don't think it's dangerous to suggest that people enjoy the food they are eating. It's far more dangerous to try to suggest that someone cure an eating disorder by cutting out whole food groups and I'm a good example of that. Diets have made my ED worse and worse and if I don't take control of that now I will live the rest of my life this way.

I took the wrong advice for a long time. A long long time. Long enough. I've trusted everyone but myself and packed on the pounds in the name of virtue. I don't expect anyone to understand that unless they have a diagnosed eating disorder. And binging is not enjoyable at all. Now that I'm not binging I have a new appreciation for food, it's enjoyable to me and I don't need permission to find enjoyment in it. Some of the happiest times of my life were accompanied by food and I feel no shame about that.

Are there other pleasures in life to be enjoyed? Yes. Am I enjoying them? Yes. I finally have time to now that my face is not buried in a binge. Do carbs bring me pleasure? NO they don't!! But the freedom to eat them if I want them is a privilege and pleasure I've denied myself long enough.

[krampus]

Originally Posted by Wannabeskinny

I wouldn't dream of encouraging anyone to eat something they don't want to eat. I'm used to eating for reasons other than hunger. Thus, eating is behavioral for me and I'm approaching my eating with a behavioral solution and part of that is not to subscribe to the idea of trigger foods. Foods don't trigger me, habits and emotions do.

The "idea" of trigger foods that you have unsubscribed from is a real issue for many. Simple carbs and sugars screw with blood sugar and insulin levels and can generate dopamine rushes and cravings. I do not identify as a sugar or carb addict, but after a giant pasta dish or too much dessert I often feel like I might be turning into one, and get horrible gnawing sensations that literally never happen when I tone down the carbs. It is entirely possible to "sit with it" and still lose/maintain, but if satiety and moderation is the goal, the path will be trickier with lots of sugar and carbs.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by krampus

The "idea" of trigger foods that you have unsubscribed from is a real issue for many. Simple carbs and sugars screw with blood sugar and insulin levels and can generate dopamine rushes and cravings. I do not identify as a sugar or carb addict, but after a giant pasta dish or too much dessert I often feel like I might be turning into one, and get horrible gnawing sensations that literally never happen when I tone down the carbs. It is entirely possible to "sit with it" and still lose/maintain, but if satiety and moderation is the goal, the path will be trickier with lots of sugar and carbs.

What you're doing can be done within the intuitive eating scheme. I am careful to eat refined carbohydrates in small portions because I feel sick after eating them if I don't. Many times if I have something sweet it is with a meal that contains protein and fat. I don't enjoy sodas, big plates of pasta, donuts, etc. because I feel my heart beating faster from the carb load after I eat them. Do I still have a craving for a donut? Sure, every once in a while but I remember that they make me feel like sh*t after I eat them. I may opt for a donut hole instead.

IE is a psychological game. If I tell myself that I can't have donuts, that they are poison, junk, etc. I find myself compulsively thinking about them. To be obsessed with what you can't have seems to be a very common human reaction to restriction. Here's an example from my life: when I went grain free I saw a newspaper article in my paper reviewing a restaurant famous for their chicken and waffles. I felt myself get angry and jealous at the people pictured in the restaurant eating these poisonous, fattening foods. Don't they realize how they are giving themselves diabetes and heart disease??? I craved eating chicken and waffles so badly that I went and binged on frozen toaster waffles and frozen chicken nuggets- foul junk that I didn't even taste.

Now that I've given myself permission to eat whatever I want I don't feel any sort of compulsion to eat foods. Chicken and waffles? Of course they're delicious but I just haven't felt like eating them. I can be happy for the people I see walking down the street eating ice cream- ice cream is delicious! How much fun is it to walk down the street on a sunny day eating an ice cream cone? Of course the pleasure comes from discipline and moderation. The biggest mistake I have made in my life is equating the pleasure of secretly stuffing myself with a carton of ice cream alone in my house at night with the pleasure of walking down a sunny street with a friend and eating an ice cream cone.

[Pattience]

I spend a lot more time thinking about sweets when i'm eating them without restriction than when i'm not eating them at all. I also spend a lot more time craving them.

As is often said around here, we are all different.

[Mrs Snark]

Trigger foods are real for me, and I have little doubt they are real for a fair number of other people as well.

I, personally, don't think it is dangerous to recommend that people cut out their trigger foods, at least for a while, as one potential option that is at least worth a try. As it turns out, white bread wasn't adding all that much of value to my life. It was adding alot of struggle and mental mind games, though.

To each their own.

[freelancemomma]

I totally agree with you. When I hear people say things like "juice has no place in a healthy diet" or "cereal is evil," I often think all that fierce energy is misplaced. It's in our nature to enjoy and revel in food. Yesterday I was at a catered party, and one of the people I talked to said, "Eating good food has healing powers, just like medicine."

Nothing wrong with searching for the intersection between tasty and healthy. My own definition of healthy is comparatively broad. I sure don't want to live on a planet in which fresh baguette, fragrant cheese and a bottle of fine red wine spread out over a picnic blanket isn't considered healthy.

F.

This is my story and very personal but I wanted to share. Last year, 2013, my beloved uncle came to live with us. He was my dad and I am his closest living relative. We had been trying since he retired to get him to live with us. He refused. He had developed pretty bad dementia and we just finally got the move with all his doctors telling him he had to move. It was devastating. I remember one particular day we were at the Waco Zoo for hours. Then we went out to eat. Less than 30 minutes after leaving the zoo he didn't remember he had even been there. At that moment I just wanted to crawl up into a little ball and die.

It was so heart breaking. My wife and I also adopted our beloved daughter after years of trying to have a family. She was 2 at that point, 3 now. I realized she would be just 15 when I hit 60. My uncle is only 22 years older than me. Nothing could be harder than getting dementia. NOTHING. Certainly not food. I was determined.

So I had all the motivation in the world, I was on a motivation high. So I told myself I don't care how much it is going to stink...I am NEVER eating the way I used to. I was also so tired of being hungry all the time and aches and pains and being lethargic and un-athletic. I choose to eliminate foods. I had my uncle's example, and I felt his diet gave him dementia, and however hard it was going to be I knew it was NOTHING compared to the pain I would inflict on my family and myself if I got dementia.

So I was ready to eliminate food that was keeping me hungry and overweight and unhealthy as I saw it.

For me it worked. Again I think motivation and timing was everything in my success. I also want to say that not only do I not crave the food anymore it actually makes me ill now, much of it. I used to go to a great restaurant in the Austin area, Pluckers. I loved their wings. I went back after not going for a few months, a couple of months ago. I got a massive headache when finishing the wings. It was scary and intense and made me very frightened. I hadn't experienced that before. I got home and wondered what could it have been. I've changed our oils at home completely, I called and they cook in soy oil. I looked up soy oil reactions and the most common one is headaches.

Our bodies are amazing. Sometimes too amazing for our own good. When I went often to Pluckers the soy oil effect was not so much. I couldn't even feel it, my body was dealing with it. But after eating 'cleaner' I could feel the impact. Just last week similar thing happened. Went to a restaurant haven't been for a few months. Before I was fine in it. I tried to order clean but I don't know their oils used or how much sugar or HFCS I might have been getting. I left feeling woozy and dizzy. My body just isn't used to what I used to eat anymore. So not only don't I miss it now, it often makes me sick.

This is my story. I hope everyone including Wannabe has as much success as they want with whatever method/approach works for them. I fully acknowledge had I not had my sky high motivation at that time, I might not have made it pass the transition period. I TOTALLY get not getting over the transition period, it happened to me more than once. But once I did it this time, got over the hump this time, it got easier and easier because my appetite went down so much.

But if this helps one person it is worth it. Perhaps that person will try moderation and succeed, perhaps they won't. Perhaps in ten years they might remember this and think you know I am ready to just go for it now with the eliminating foods approach. I am willing to get over the transition period and just eliminate these things for good or at least try it. And perhaps it will help them then to know it can work for some people.

My last thoughts are these. Everyone is different and I wish everyone the best in whatever they choose. But for me things are PROFOUNDLY different having eliminated foods. I believe for me cereals are for sure 'evil'. I don't spend wasted time worrying about that I have just eliminated grains. And my back pain went away, I haven't gotten sick since then, my allergies went away, 87 pounds and counting went away, my vitality is through the roof. So yes profound changes. Are all these changes from grain elimination? No. But the back pain is for sure, that went right away with stopping my last grain, corn, and it comes back if I have grains by mistake.

When I eat now and I don't have many carbs aside from veggies, my body uses the fat I give it instead of storing it. I have become 'fat adapted'.

OK very last thought. I knew I was unhealthy and the unhealthiest wasn't enough for me to change. We adopted our daughter 2 years ago and that wasn't enough to change. Then my uncle got dementia which as I stated above was devastating.

All three things together were an unstoppable motivating force for me to make permanent changes. Does anyone else have to eliminate foods to succeed? No. I am sure there are many successful approaches. I have chosen to and it has worked beyond belief.

Originally Posted by freelancemomma

I totally agree with you. When I hear people say things like "juice has no place in a healthy diet" or "cereal is evil," I often think all that fierce energy is misplaced. It's in our nature to enjoy and revel in food. Yesterday I was at a catered party, and one of the people I talked to said, "Eating good food has healing powers, just like medicine."

Nothing wrong with searching for the intersection between tasty and healthy. My own definition of healthy is comparatively broad. I sure don't want to live on a planet in which fresh baguette, fragrant cheese and a bottle of fine red wine spread out over a picnic blanket isn't considered healthy.

F.

Insulin resistance runs in my family. My grandmother lost a leg and died from complications eventually. My uncle got diabetes and dementia as I mentioned.

Did I 'choose' to consider a fresh baguette to be unhealthy? Did I choose to consider fruit juice or cereals to be unhealthy? Did anyone on the planet 'choose' these all to be considered unhealthy? No. People just noticed the impact foods like these were having on themselves and on loved ones and some reacted accordingly. Those who felt they were negatively impacting them, they may not impact you negatively.

I will say this there are profound differences in what people consider unhealthy or not. John McDougall or Colin Campbell versus say Tim Noakes and Sam Feltham have very different views on what is healthy. My low carb high fat approach for instance, many people consider unhealthy.

But I don't consider fruit juice and bread to be unhealthy to get under anyone's skin or impact anyone negatively in anyway. I consider them to unhealthy because to the best of my personal experiences and all the research I've read I know them to be for me, and I believe them to be for many people. The cheese and wine is great though.

[freelancemomma]

Originally Posted by MauiKai

So, for me, I choose not to view food as recreation/fun/pleasure.... I'm never going to, as an old lady, sit there and say "I remember this bag of oreo cookies I ate once in 2014, it was so good!" But I do suspect that as an old lady I will be able to say "I remember that trip I took to *someplace* and how much fun I had!

My own balance is a little different. I agree that I won't remember the bag of Oreo cookies I ate 30 years ago, but some of my fondest memories do involve food (often in the context of travel): The buffalo steak tartare I had in Banff, the Sushi Sei restaurant in Tokyo, Bong Su (upscale Vietnamese) in San Francisco, Pei Modern in Melbourne... the baguette, cheese and wine feast we have every year at the cottage, Ed's Real Scoop gelato after rollerblading along the boardwalk... and on and on...

Nope, not giving all that up.

F.

[Palestrina]

Originally Posted by freelancemomma

I sure don't want to live on a planet in which fresh baguette, fragrant cheese and a bottle of fine red wine spread out over a picnic blanket isn't considered healthy.

F.

Because the act of sitting and eating that pleasurably, alone or with company and not feeling bad about it is a healthy act of eating. If I on the other hand secretly buy a loaf of bread and eat it on my couch while watching tv and finishing it all so that my husband does not see the evidence then that is not exactly healthy.

Coincidentally before I even read this I bought French bread, Camembert and fig jam, a food combination that I either restrict or binge on. The plan is to enjoy some with a glass of wine for dinner without guilt.

Everyone's definitions of what is healthy might be different. I am completely focused on conducting a healthy act of eating no matter what I choose to eat. My ED is very specific, eat something 'restricted' in secret, in between meals alone, then eat the regular meals too so nobody suspects anything, then get rid of the evidence. And how do I buy that food? With the personal account that I've set up in secret so that nobody finds out. Dude, that's an eating disorder ok? Going grain free is not going to fix that lol.

So my healthy act of eating right now involves eating without secrets, I don't stash anything anymore or eat secretely. I've spent a lot of energy on trying to hide my eating and sometimes that means eating large amounts of food very fast and I can't even taste them honestly. Now I eat as much as I want, I make sure I'm properly hungry for it and that I eat slowly and mindfully so that I notice when I get full, I even take breaks while I eat so that I don't miss those fullness cues. Yes at first this was damn near impossible to do - my hunger/fullness system was completely broken and I'm fixing it. It is easier now, I'm still working on it but it's a skill that I actually have so I'm going to use it. So now if I sit in public and eat a sandwich without judging myself or feeling like I'm being judged, and I eat it slowly so that I pay attention to how it feels/tastes then I consider that a healthy act of eating. This is huge for me y'all! And my binges are nearly gone, I've NEVER managed to not binge ever! I understand that some foods are more nutritious than others and I'm not overlooking that at all, I'm not eating chips and candy all day every day. Far from the truth. But I've spent a long time obsessing about food, and not really enjoying it. Now that I'm not obsessing about it I'm finally enjoying it.

... Oh and all that money I'm saving now from the binging I used to do? ----> goes directly to paying for my out-of-network nutritional therapist. So I'm walking the walk baby. Thank you to those who have been supportive!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Wannabeskinny

Coincidentally before I even read this I bought French bread, Camembert and fig jam, a food combination that I either restrict or binge on. The plan is to enjoy some with a glass of wine for dinner without guilt.

That sounds fabulous, enjoy every bite!

[SouthernMaven]

Originally Posted by Wannabeskinny

Coincidentally before I even read this I bought French bread, Camembert and fig jam, a food combination that I either restrict or binge on. The plan is to enjoy some with a glass of wine for dinner without guilt.

Umm, sounds good! May have that on Easter Sunday instead of the traditional food feast. Easter Sunday because I've given up wine for Lent.

As for the topic of this thread, the bottom line is "Different strokes for different folks." I don't envy anyone who feels it is necessary to restrict certain foods, but I would never tell them not to do so. If it works for them, and they feel they can live with it, then Bravo!

I consider myself fortunate that I can eat any food in moderation. Practicing intuitive eating for me has relieved me of any guilt over any food I eat, which has been my bugaboo for the last 10 years or so. The guilt resulting from eating the so-called bad foods was the primary cause of my eating more and more of them, not any type of physical craving for them. I was constantly "dieting on Monday," which would fall by the wayside about Wednesday or Thursday, resulting in last supper eating syndrome which went on for 3 or 4 days. Until I started over on Monday, repeating the cycle over and over again.

Once I made the decision to no longer diet, this cycle stopped. And the weight gain stopped. And the guilt stopped. And now I am at peace with food.

I wish peace with food for anyone who struggles with this, using whatever method works for them.

[MauiKai]

Originally Posted by freelancemomma

My own balance is a little different. I agree that I won't remember the bag of Oreo cookies I ate 30 years ago, but some of my fondest memories do involve food (often the context of travel): The buffalo steak tartare I had in Banff, the Sushi Sei restaurant in Tokyo, Bong Su (upscale Vietnamese) in San Francisco, Pei Modern in Melbourne... the baguette, cheese and wine feast we have every year at the cottage, Ed's Real Scoop gelato after rollerblading along the boardwalk... and on and on...

Nope, not giving all that up.

F.

No one asked you to. I don't remember my life by what was in my mouth, so for ME, it's not an issue. If you have strong memories that are because of food then you will make different choices for yourself than I would. We're all different.

[SouthernMaven]

Originally Posted by freelancemomma

My own balance is a little different. I agree that I won't remember the bag of Oreo cookies I ate 30 years ago, but some of my fondest memories do involve food (often the context of travel): The buffalo steak tartare I had in Banff, the Sushi Sei restaurant in Tokyo, Bong Su (upscale Vietnamese) in San Francisco, Pei Modern in Melbourne... the baguette, cheese and wine feast we have every year at the cottage, Ed's Real Scoop gelato after rollerblading along the boardwalk... and on and on...

Nope, not giving all that up.

F.

This. So, SO this!

As the title of the thread says - "Food IS pleasure!"

[Palestrina]

Originally Posted by MauiKai

No one asked you to. I don't remember my life by what was in my mouth, so for ME, it's not an issue. If you have strong memories that are because of food then you will make different choices for yourself than I would. We're all different.

Wow isn't it amazing how we can all be so different in our relationship with food. I remember so fondly the times that I would work on the farm with my grandmother picking green peppers and tomatoes and other veggies. I remember vividly biting into a freshly picked green pepper. I can't ever eat a pepper without remembering those times, ever!

I remember my wedding cake like it was yesterday. It was carrot cake and it had this amazing layer of cream cheese frosting that was out of this world, not sweet at all but savoury and spicy. We tried finding the bakery that made our cake afterwards but we kept driving by over and over and could never find it, even though it's in our own neighborhood. We'd call them and they'd be like "yea we're on the corner of 35th St. and Broadway" and then go there and we couldn't find it. I'll find it sometime I swear it! Can't eat carrot cake without reminiscing about my wedding.

Well, you get my point, memories and food are tied very closely together. I remember people, events, activities, vacations through food. Gosh I remember having pizza in Italy for the first time - revelation ding ding ding! If someone told me I would go to Italy again and not eat pizza I'd cry rivers!