Jumping back in to address a few issues

Is the hoarding really that bad?

Trust me, yes. Have you seen the show Hoarders? I've considered submitting her house except I'm not sure she'd ever speak to me again much less agree to appearing. She's in total denial about the hoarding. It's another one of those things that keeps insisting is someone else's fault. This behavior is not new; she's been hoarding on an increasing scale since I was a little girl. Just one quick example for those of you think I might be exaggerating, her car is so crammed full of stuff that they have to continually clear out room to sit. She has to move a pile just to shift.

So why not involve CPS?

CPS in her county is totally impotent. The only thing calling CPS would due is cause a ton of drama. They've been called recently (and not by me) and never followed through in making a home visit. As previously stated my mother claims that the condition of the house is all the kid's fault (not true). If any cleaning occurs it will be the kids who are forced to do it. As a true hoarder, she's very adverse to allowing anyone to throw things away. I don't believe they could clean the house up to a truly acceptable standard at this point without professional help. My mother can't afford to hire professional help and wouldn't be open to doing so if she could. (The house also needs some pretty major maintanence work done. It's been neglected for a couple decades.)

For the sake of argument, let's assume that CPS visited, declared the house unsafe and removed my brother and sister. Their father (a mentally unstable, chronically unemployed substance abuser) would all but certainly be granted custody of my brother. He does not currently have any parental rights to my sister (long story), so it's very possible that she could get tossed into foster care at least in the short term. He could theoretically fight for rights for her as well. (He's funded by his well-to-do, enabling parents.) This would involve a costly legal battle for me to prove that their father is an unfit parent and obtain legal custody/guardianship. My mother would rather see me as their legal guardian than their father, but she's not at the point where she'd sign them over to me of her own accord. (I know all this because we've been through it before. Long story short, my brother tried to go live with his father recently. Without knowledge of the hoarding, the court found our mother to be the lesser of the two evils.)

None of this is in the best interests of the kids. They want to stay in their current school and close to all of their friends. Aside from that, they would be fine with coming to live with me if not for all of the drama it would cause. I would have to completely destroy the relationship with our mother (for all three of us) to forcibly take custody and possibly fight off a legal challenge from their father as well. I am the only willing, stable and responsible adult in their lives who could take them in. If it ever comes to the point where my brother and sister both want and need to escape our mother's custody, I'd be willing and able to take on that battle, but that's obviously not a decision I take lightly. (I would have to take them both, as our mother is very spiteful and would prevent any relationship if one of them remained in her custody.) This probably sounds like I don't get along with our mother, but we actually get along decently well now that I don't live with her. I wish I could say that our mother could be convinced to seek professional help to prevent me from involving the authorities, but that wouldn't work. She's very defensive; any suggestion, regardless of the phrasing, would be taken as an attack. I need to stay on good terms with her so I can continue to monitor the situation. There is no easy solution here.

Why is the my business in the first place?

I'm not just their sister. To a large degree, I raised them. Their father wasn't around. Our mother was always working. Up until I went away to college, I was responsible for them for more hours a week than any other person. Once I left things really started to go off the rails at home. I know I'm not responsible for the situation my brother and sister have found themselves in, but I have to intervene because I'm only of the few advocates they have. Their health and well-being (both physical and mental) is my business.

They're very fortunate to have someone who loves them and is as concerned for them as you are.

All I can say is to take the advice given here under heavy consideration, and go with the answer that sounds wisest and most workable, but don't do it lightly (especially regarding their weight). So many of us have had life long emotional damage from well-intentioned family members meddling or 'helping' with our fat and either ruining our already-bad self esteem or getting us started on a cycle that is truly unhealthy (crash dieting, binging) and can have permanent deleterious health effects.

Tread lightly if you are not able to or willing to gain custody of them. They are not legally your children right now, and the situation they are in is extremely complex. I know your heart is 100% in the right place, please try to get your words and course of action there, too, if you can :)

KAPLODS ~ I'm confused: ^OP said^ CPS has been called, but didn't respond. That makes me think they didn't feel the complaint warranted a visit. Did I miss something here? This IS a very long thread.

I understand your concerns as well, and I agree that we really don't have all the info here: we have only heard one side of the story, and we haven't seen the place ourselves. We can only surmise at best; and yes, some counselling would be beneficial, but it's their choice (as others have already said).


OP ~ Again, I appreciate your concern for your siblings, but your mother is still their legal guardian. You can't blame her for being defensive when you are criticizing her parenting skills so vehemently. You didn't address my suggestions to help them out in a more practical way, like inviting them to dinner once or twice a week. You say arranging a housekeeper would be futile: have you tried giving her a gift of a housekeeper for one day a week or month?

If she refuses that gift of love (which would be surprising unless she just doesn't want strangers in her house), have you offered to help out yourself? I mean she is your mother too. When I would visit my mother (when she was still alive), I would just pitch right in and help her with anything she needed help with; and she never refused the help of her own adult children ... :D

If there is no food in the house and they only eat erratically I don't know what good it will do to teach them nutrition. They have no means of changing the way they eat.

I probably missed it, but how old is the OP? I would be very weary of any custody-change talk, that is far more complicated than people think. Not to make a blanket statement, but it is pretty darn rare for a sibling to be awarded custody (or guardianship) of two minor children, and those that are awarded it tend to be far older and exceptionally mature. I do not think the state would, in any way, be willing to terminate rights in this situation (seeing as though CPS is not interested according to OP).

I think OP would be wise to listen to a few here (specifically kaplods and Justwant2Bhealthy). I haven't worked in counseling/social services but I've worked in policing. I've seen unfit homes. I've seen family swear up & down that so-and-so is unfit this/that/everything and while sometimes it is true, most of the time it is in no way comparable to a legal standard of unfit. This is very difficult for biased family to understand (and all family is biased, sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not).

OP, with all due respect and I understand your intentions, I suggest doing a lot more research into the area of parental rights/guardianship/termination of rights, etc. Everything you wrote indicates that you don't really have a grasp on the legal process behind this (for one, if her father had his parental rights terminated by a court of law, assuming for reasons other than voluntary adoption, he is a legal stranger and would have no ability to 're-adopt' the minor than Joe on the street corner. In fact, involuntary terminations through a court tend to follow protection orders, such as child abuse convictions). I suspect you are confusing parental rights with custodial rights and those are very very different.

I guess what I am saying here is that you are really jumping the gun and talking about stuff that isn't logical or possible through a family court.

Yes, she did say that CPS has been called recently, but in an earlier post, she said:




I have to admit that there are a lot of conflicting and confounding statements in the OP's posts, which makes it very difficult to get a sense of the actual family dynamics, which is why I'm so concerned that without outside intervention and support, a lot of psychological damage is going to be done.

For example, when she says, "We could go in there and clean up, but until she gets help, it'll just keep ending up trashed again," that would make sense if she were living on her own (true hoarders get extremely upset and stressed - panicked even, when their stuff is touched or moved, they're comforted by an order they see in what everyone else sees as chaols).

However, with children in the home, keeping at least the kitchen, bathroom, and car functional, even if the mess has to be cleaned, over and over and over again, would be in the best interest of the children.

I know why the OP doesn't wish to do this - it would require an incredible investment of time and effort that wouldn't be sufficiently appreciated - and because it would soon be undone. The feelings of futility make the effort seem not worth the stress and drama that would result.

It's just incredibly ironic that OP has so little compassion for her mother's perspective when her's is so similar, "Why bother, when nothing seems to change, anyway."

That view lies at the very core of depression, and chronic weight issues as well "nothing matters, because nothing changes."

Not only does the depression cause that feeling (and even with medication and counseling, it doesn't change overnight), we're "taught" to view weight loss changes as only admirable (they only "count") if they're dramatic.

So what, if OP's mother relies heavily on outside help when it's available - she NEEDS it.

Someone who hasn't gone through depression (even someone like me who has the degrees proving they've studied it, and "should" understand it) has no idea how powerless a depressed person feels.

My brush with clinical depression was short, a period of about two years ( during the process of being diagnosed for multiple, mystery health problems, having to to quit my job because of illness, and struggling with having to apply for disability, and trying to learn to cope with my disabilities while trying to improve and master my health).

I didn't realize that I had been struggling with sub-clinical depression for years. I (and my family) all just thought I was "lazy."

Even knowing better, I didn't know better. Depression sneaks up on you, and saps every bit of strength and will you have. Just getting out of bed seems like a monumental task. You may consider suicide, but you don't even have the energy to follow through with that.

After I realized what I was dealing with, and started feeling better because of the medications and supplements (Folic acid, fVitamin D, and possibly fish oil helped tremendously), I gradually was able to pull myself out of the black hole, but it wasn't easy and it definitely wasn't rapid. At first the improvements were so small they were unnoticeable. I had to celebrate the smallest victories, even though they were acomplisments most people considered too small to even acknowledge. Without my husband's amazing ability to see and reward small efforts and changes, I'm not sure that I would have kept going, because I wouldn't have seen enough improvement to keep going.

One of the worst aspects of depression is the harsh judgement and anger of others. You're seen as "just lazy," as "not wanting help," as "just making excuses," and when you're in the mental health or health field, you also get "knows better, so there's no excuse..." and worse than that, eventually people stop even trying to help because they're so angry that their efforts haven't yielded what they see as significant or permanent improvements (not realizing that relapses are normal and progress often is slow) so you start isolating from people so that you can avoid the pain of their judgement.

Yes, you make excuses, because the alternative is you're a lazy, crazy, stupid and worthless human being.

i agree..it looks like their weight issues aren't the only health hazard they're facing. If it was me, i would bring in a third party to assess the situation. a coworker, a family friend, a pastor, etc.
sometimes, airing out your dirty laundry only makes a difference if it's in front of other people. It's more of a wake up call.

This has gotten way off-topic from the orginal conversation, but to address some points that have attracted interest:

RE: CPS

CPS was interested in making a home visit in response to the most recent call, but my mother dodged them. This wasn't terribly hard to do considering she's rarely at the house. (She works overnight and usually stays at my grandmother's on days she's off.) I think she gave them the line about looking to move, and they dropped off her case. I'm not sure what this particular call to CPS was in reference to; they've been called at least five times that I recall about various situations, including the condition of the house, in the past.

Why can't I bring in an outside party?

My mother doesn't want anyone in the house. People outside our family have not be invited into her house for over 15 years. She doesn't really even like me seeing it in its current condition. If I could clean up the house, I would. The hoard was become overwhelming (think: no clear pathways in the rooms), and she would not consent to anyone getting rid of any of her things without her there (even if they have little to no value). She's been purposefully avoiding spending time in the house for a few years (as in is not at home at all most days), so there's no way she could start going through it all slowly.

RE: Their father's rights

Their father doesn't currently have rights to my sister because he's not listed on her birth certificate (long story as to why not). He could get parental rights to her by ordering a paternity test. Although he'd have to answer for why he waited so long to secure his rights, courts in our state tend to lean towards supporting a parent-child relationship in all but the most extreme circumstances. He does not have joint custody of my brother but does have visitation rights; thus, he could still be granted custody of my brother if my mother were found unfit.

So could I ever really get custody of them?

Yes, it wouldn't be easy, but I could do it. Obviously it's rare that a sibling be granted custody or guardianship. These are exceptional circumstances. I'm 25 and meet all of the standards a court would consider. I have no criminal record or history of substance abuse. I've been employed at the same stable, professional job for almost 3 years. I hold a graduate degree in my field. I'm married and would have the support of my husband (who doesn't present any negatives). I own my house and could pay it off the mortgage tomorrow if I had to. We have no children of our own and no plans to ever have any. Although we're not wealthy by any means, my husband and I are much more financially stable than my mother or my brother and sister's father. There's absolutely no reason that I wouldn't be considered a fit guardian.

The critical thing that I would need to get custody of the kids (other than a good family law attorney) is their full cooperation. I would need them both to be willing to provide testimony against our mother (and their father if he got involved). In addition to problems with their living situation, there are incidents of verbal and physical abuse that they could reference, and our mother has a related domestic violence convinction. There's no bad blood between their father and I, so if the kids wanted to live with me, he may just let them. Courts in my state give the child's preference a lot of weight especially when dealing with older children. If their father was stable, he would have won custody of my brother when he contested it a few months ago because my brother wanted to live with him. Their father has a terrible civil and criminal history going against him if he decided to fight.