Weight loss is at least 90% vanity for me (5'4, 180?/150ish/135). And I'm a cisgendered hetero female who dates and hasn't had a problem attracting attractive people. None of that makes me anti-feminist. But it does make me uncomfortable and closed-mouthed in HAES and FA spaces.

Originally Posted by shishkeberry:
Maybe I'm alone, but I am not interested in what men have to say about feminism. I think we hear enough of what they have to say on everything else. As a white woman, I wouldn't dream of intruding on a discussion of racism between anyone of color.

Yes, this.

If I want to read about what men think and do, I can read the New York Times. Or any other major newsorgan. Or at the movies (google Bechdel test and apply it). Put women and men in a room together, and men will be heard more than women--both by men and women, unfortunately. (And it happens here at 3FC too.) I'm absolutely okay with a space--not a safe space, just a space-- where voices like mine predominate. And if that takes excluding those whose voices will always be heard over mine, so be it. I can't get up a whole lot of righteous indignation over men's being unheard or unseen or uncatered to.

Waves of feminism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_wave_feminism

Esofia, you might give some thought to how you'll want to handle comments.

Originally Posted by runningfromfat:
Ok, I couldn't even read that article. I just can't. It just doesn't make any sense to me. How can we say that what a women does with her body is her choice but then go and turn it right around and say weight loss is evil? I seriously don't get it. :?: I agree that body image issues are a serious problem but you can be at a completely healthy weight and have body image problems and be obese and be happy or visa versa. Weight loss is definitely not always about living up to some ideal and I'd actually go so far as to say that in my own life if I would try to lose weight to live up to society's ideal image of a women I'd never get there and never be happy because that's not the way I'm built. However, after weight loss I AM a lot happier because I've accepted my own body regardless of how that lines up with society's expectations.

I grapple with this sometimes. Because if I'm being honest, I'm more motivated by superficial aspects of weight loss than I am by health reasons. I don't ever want "the gaze" and it makes me uncomfortable that women revel in it, but it's not my place to tell them how to feel. I don't want to attract a partner because I have one and I am happy in my relationship. But I want to wear what I want and not loathe myself when I look in the mirror. And I think the FA movement is good for that part of it, because I don't think you have to be thin to be attractive. And I don't think you have to be conventionally attractive to encompass beauty. But I hold myself to impossible standards that I don't hold others to. And I feel like that in itself is somewhat anti-feminist because on some level it was imposed on me from the outside, and that makes me ashamed.

However, I'm still young and major health issues haven't presented themselves yet. More and more, I'm motivated by my fitness level above the numbers on the scale. I work out even when I don't lose weight, because I know it's good for me and it makes me feel good. I'm proud when I feel more definition in my legs even if I know I still weigh 100 pounds more than I "should" according to various medical recommendations. Most of the time, I don't need a scale to tell me that I'm doing a good job in taking care of myself, and that's better than I was 5 years ago. And with that said, I completely disagree with the Jezebel article. I would never tell someone to lose weight, it's not my place. Just as it's not someone else's place to tell me NOT to lose weight unless I'm pregnant or ill or whatever arbitrary parameters were listed.

I can acknowledge that much of my self-loathing comes from years of cultural conditioning, but I can't say that that's WHY I'm trying to lose weight.

Originally Posted by MariaMaria:
I can't get up a whole lot of righteous indignation over men's being unheard or unseen or uncatered to.

Yes, absolutely. Which is why I didn't add the obligatory disclaimer that I don't hate men. :rolleyes: I'm tired of feeling like my voice doesn't deserve to be heard unless I throw that in there somewhere. I'm done with coddling men. Haven't we been shouldering enough for them over the last few thousand years? This woman is tired of it.

The women-only space thing - I don't really want to make a decision on that yet, I think it's complicated. For starters, women-only spaces often end up having problems with excluding people who are transgendered, intersex, polygendered and so forth. I absolutely do not want to do that, especially since gender and body issues are so often mixed up together (it's common for people with gender dysphoria to have weight problems, I'm told). So we're talking about fluid boundaries here.

As we used to chant regularly to the one male student in a feminist lit class I attended at uni, we hate the patriarchy, we don't hate men. [Edit: and having read the comment you put up while I was composing this rather long one, yeah, I get rather sick of saying it too, and don't plan to be doing so again too often. But I do promise you that I am not talking about coddling men! And is that anything to do with coddling eggs, because if so it sounds rather painful?] They're not the same thing. The patriarchy mainly benefits men, but sometimes it can actually make things worse for them. As a random example of how sexism sometimes works against men, try getting a job as a primary school teacher if you're a man. It's near impossible, because we have somehow got to the stage as a society where a man who is interested in looking after small children is automatically assumed to be a paedophile - which both grows out of and perpetuates our society shoving all the childcare at women for so long. Male victims of domestic and/or sexual violence get sod-all support because that's meant to be something that only happens to women. Men and boys with eating disorders are practically invisible because that's meant to be something that only happens to women and girls.

And yes, it can go the other way when you get occasional men in a women-dominated environment, and I for one am sick of the way that male quilters can get fawned over just because they were men who managed to pick up a needle. And YES, a huge part of the problem is women being denied a voice, and we've all spent enough of our lives being told what to do by men. (Although I'd like to note in passing that oddly, a huge number of posts here are about women who have been getting told what to do by other women, and that's something I'd definitely like to explore further.) But I do believe that men are sometimes negatively affected by sexism, and I'm sure that sometimes this happens in the field of weight loss. If a blog post were to be written by a man who was writing specifically about his experience of weight loss as affected by sexism, and it was intelligent and respectful and wasn't derailing or trying to take over the discussion, then I do think that it should at least be worthy of consideration. We're talking about a moderated submission to a group blog run by women, after all, with the women still in control. And only occasionally at that.

I went to a lovely women's group when I was a student, part of the uni LGBT society, and we first set it up because there were practically no women in the society and we wanted to encourage more (it worked). We worried that the men might try to take over, the society president and his boyfriend had been rather against the idea when we set it up, and I remember saying, "Maybe we could just pick a topic that would scare off the men if they tried to gate-crash?" at which point everyone else said, "Periods!" They never did try to gate-crash. We had a few transwomen, and a guy with gender dysphoria who eventually realised that he was happier staying in a man's body, and occasionally we invited the men to join us for film night, and it still felt very much like a women's space.

Now, I know that the internet isn't that cosy, and that it will have to be very carefully set up and comment moderation could turn out to be a complete nightmare, and hey, right now it's still very much in the tentative stages of even planning the thing. But I still think it's a possibility worth considering. Having women's voices predominate isn't the same as having to exclude men altogether. (Erm, I'm not trying to say we live in a binary gender system here, I'm just having trouble with getting the language right.)

Anyway, back to the rest of the discussion!

Originally Posted by InsideMe:
Meaning if you totally love, and respect yourself you will do the same with your body and become or maintain a healthy lifestyle. I honestly don't believe overweight people are happy deep down.

I keep thinking about this. I'm having quite a variety of reactions to it, and it's interesting me, so I hope you don't mind if I pull it apart a bit. First reaction: Absolutely! Well said! Loving and respecting yourself are definitely the key to being able to work on your body, and for some reason this keeps on getting lost. This is an issue we should be raising and talking about more! Second reaction: ...hang on, are all overweight people unhappy at some level? Third reaction: Well, how on earth would I know? I'm not all overweight people, in fact I sometimes fret that I'm not representative enough of overweight people and shouldn't be yapping on about all of this so much. And come to that, happiness, let alone deep-down happiness, is totally subjective, and I don't even know if I could tell you decisively whether I'm happy or unhappy, let alone for every moment of my life. Fourth reaction: Why on earth are we feeling compelled to make such sweeping statements in the first place? Because I feel this pull as well. Is it perhaps because we are so often being attacked on weight-related subjects that there is this drive to present a unified front? And perhaps that's why the Fat Acceptance movement ended up going to extremes as well?

I don't think it can be gender based. Being active in the gay community I know TONS of feminine energy men that honour women and their feminine selves. So I'm ok to hear a "male's" perspective cause I believe it's the energy of the person, not the gender. Being open to perspectives can help you build a stronger community once you follow your truth and guidelines of your goal. When you close the door, you could be missing out on some great opportunity!

Originally Posted by :
I honestly don't believe overweight people are happy deep down.

*cue record scratch noise*

I do not like seeing that. I wouldn't want this to be about that. Period. Because it sounds pretty darn judgmental.

I can't be happy, because I'm overweight. I should be happy despite being overweight. If I'm not happy there's something wrong with me. If I am happy there's something delusional about it.

I'm tired of hearing all of it, and that's what I thought this was about.

I think Esofia puts it nicely:

Originally Posted by :
[...]happiness, let alone deep-down happiness, is totally subjective, and I don't even know if I could tell you decisively whether I'm happy or unhappy, let alone for every moment of my life. [...]Why on earth are we feeling compelled to make such sweeping statements in the first place?

Originally Posted by Esofia:
Fourth reaction: Why on earth are we feeling compelled to make such sweeping statements in the first place? Because I feel this pull as well. Is it perhaps because we are so often being attacked on weight-related subjects that there is this drive to present a unified front? And perhaps that's why the Fat Acceptance movement ended up going to extremes as well?

I've been mulling over the thought of an organized movement that addressed the intersection of feminism and weightloss ever since you made your first post, and I think this is a really important issue for us to interrogate. It was these sorts of sweeping generalizations that pushed me away from the FA movement in the first place (along with faulty science, but that is also true for weight loss proponents).

I actually agree with many of the overarching themes of the Fat Acceptance movement, but as I read more and more, I began to feel like my experience didn't have a place there. As someone who experienced rapid weight gain as one of many symptoms of a metal health struggle, I felt like they were saying that I shouldn't lose the weight even after making a lot of progress in therapy. It was so frustrating, as I felt like many of these people would never say that I shouldn't battle to correct the severe insomnia I also struggled with, so why would my weight and eating issues be any different?

Intellectually, I know that the FAM is fighting against the stereotype that all fat people are 'mentally/morally compromised', which is absolutely not true, but it felt like I was being erased. So based on that, I would hope that a potential analysis of those who choose to loss weight would not undermine, shame, or erase those who do not.

And taking that idea further, who decides what is overweight? Right now I can feel myself getting closer to reaching my goal, but there is a chance that I will choose a final weight that is what some people would consider overweight. Should I face judgement if I only lose 90lbs rather than 115-120? Would I be less happy, would my hard work be for nothing because someone could look at me and assume I'm unhappy because I might not fit into a range that they consider acceptable?

I think that for us, the challenge is to walk the tightrope of acknowledging our own agency, which has lead us to choose to lose weight, without denying the agency of others who do not.

Originally Posted by Esofia:
The women-only space thing - I don't really want to make a decision on that yet, I think it's complicated. For starters, women-only spaces often end up having problems with excluding people who are transgendered, intersex, polygendered and so forth. I absolutely do not want to do that, especially since gender and body issues are so often mixed up together (it's common for people with gender dysphoria to have weight problems, I'm told). So we're talking about fluid boundaries here.

As we used to chant regularly to the one male student in a feminist lit class I attended at uni, we hate the patriarchy, we don't hate men. [Edit: and having read the comment you put up while I was composing this rather long one, yeah, I get rather sick of saying it too, and don't plan to be doing so again too often. But I do promise you that I am not talking about coddling men! And is that anything to do with coddling eggs, because if so it sounds rather painful?] They're not the same thing. The patriarchy mainly benefits men, but sometimes it can actually make things worse for them. As a random example of how sexism sometimes works against men, try getting a job as a primary school teacher if you're a man. It's near impossible, because we have somehow got to the stage as a society where a man who is interested in looking after small children is automatically assumed to be a paedophile - which both grows out of and perpetuates our society shoving all the childcare at women for so long. Male victims of domestic and/or sexual violence get sod-all support because that's meant to be something that only happens to women. Men and boys with eating disorders are practically invisible because that's meant to be something that only happens to women and girls.

And yes, it can go the other way when you get occasional men in a women-dominated environment, and I for one am sick of the way that male quilters can get fawned over just because they were men who managed to pick up a needle. And YES, a huge part of the problem is women being denied a voice, and we've all spent enough of our lives being told what to do by men. (Although I'd like to note in passing that oddly, a huge number of posts here are about women who have been getting told what to do by other women, and that's something I'd definitely like to explore further.) But I do believe that men are sometimes negatively affected by sexism, and I'm sure that sometimes this happens in the field of weight loss. If a blog post were to be written by a man who was writing specifically about his experience of weight loss as affected by sexism, and it was intelligent and respectful and wasn't derailing or trying to take over the discussion, then I do think that it should at least be worthy of consideration. We're talking about a moderated submission to a group blog run by women, after all, with the women still in control. And only occasionally at that.

I went to a lovely women's group when I was a student, part of the uni LGBT society, and we first set it up because there were practically no women in the society and we wanted to encourage more (it worked). We worried that the men might try to take over, the society president and his boyfriend had been rather against the idea when we set it up, and I remember saying, "Maybe we could just pick a topic that would scare off the men if they tried to gate-crash?" at which point everyone else said, "Periods!" They never did try to gate-crash. We had a few transwomen, and a guy with gender dysphoria who eventually realised that he was happier staying in a man's body, and occasionally we invited the men to join us for film night, and it still felt very much like a women's space.

Now, I know that the internet isn't that cosy, and that it will have to be very carefully set up and comment moderation could turn out to be a complete nightmare, and hey, right now it's still very much in the tentative stages of even planning the thing. But I still think it's a possibility worth considering. Having women's voices predominate isn't the same as having to exclude men altogether. (Erm, I'm not trying to say we live in a binary gender system here, I'm just having trouble with getting the language right.)

Anyway, back to the rest of the discussion!



I keep thinking about this. I'm having quite a variety of reactions to it, and it's interesting me, so I hope you don't mind if I pull it apart a bit. First reaction: Absolutely! Well said! Loving and respecting yourself are definitely the key to being able to work on your body, and for some reason this keeps on getting lost. This is an issue we should be raising and talking about more! Second reaction: ...hang on, are all overweight people unhappy at some level? Third reaction: Well, how on earth would I know? I'm not all overweight people, in fact I sometimes fret that I'm not representative enough of overweight people and shouldn't be yapping on about all of this so much. And come to that, happiness, let alone deep-down happiness, is totally subjective, and I don't even know if I could tell you decisively whether I'm happy or unhappy, let alone for every moment of my life. Fourth reaction: Why on earth are we feeling compelled to make such sweeping statements in the first place? Because I feel this pull as well. Is it perhaps because we are so often being attacked on weight-related subjects that there is this drive to present a unified front? And perhaps that's why the Fat Acceptance movement ended up going to extremes as well?

Today is my DF's birthday, so I'm quite busy today, but I do want to come back to respond to this, both the sidetrack and the main issue. I just wanted to clarify that my eye roll wasn't directed at any one person, or even anyone at all. It's just been my experience that whenever women get together to talk about the issues involving our daily lives as women, invariably some dude shows up with Important Things to Say™ (usually some variant on "What about the Menz?!") and a lot of time gets wasted falling over ourselves to prove to him that OF COURSE, we don't hate you!

Just something that I'm personally tired of and not willing to be quiet about anymore. I'm only 28 but I'm too old for it.

your soul manifests into the physical. I'm not saying your phsycial body has to be what the society depicts as beautiful, but honestly you can't say a 350lbs (just using this as in example) is totally happy with inside. Everything we feel and think is where creation begins, your perception is the reality you create. Being healthy and matching your soul to your physical body is the key point I'm trying to make. Yes of course you should be happy with yourself at ANY weight, but then why is there weight? Something you are not looking at within yourself that's causing you to damage your body. There are many layers of the subconscious. Weight can be because of exterior elements, like medications etc...however if that isn't the cause it's being caused from something within yourself. Self infliction happens because the soul is hurting somewhere. It doesn't just have to be weight. People use drugs. People are addicted to drama. People are always angry. Being content with oneself and at peace should happen no matter what your phsycial body looks like and as you clear your blockages within you then begin to peel the layers back and manifest your true healthy self in all aspects of your life. Physical, spiritual, emotional and mental.

Originally Posted by shishkeberry:
It's just been my experience that whenever women get together to talk about the issues involving our daily lives as women, invariably some dude shows up with Important Things to Say™ (usually some variant on "What about the Menz?!") and a lot of time gets wasted falling over ourselves to prove to him that OF COURSE, we don't hate you!

Just something that I'm personally tired of and not willing to be quiet about anymore. I'm only 28 but I'm too old for it.

Oh right, that side of things. Basically, you put up a nice list of rules somewhere, and then you kick out anyone who's being a total prat. I'm not too worried about concocting a foolproof set of rules - I've got a fair bit of experience with running online communities and friends who have also run similar things - I'm just hoping that we don't end up flooded with trolls and having to spend ludicrous amounts of time dealing with comment moderation. Hopefully not, eh. Any male guest bloggers would be doing so under invitation and would be moderated, so naturally we wouldn't be putting up actual posts of the "what about the menz" type. I really can't be arsed dealing with this nonsense any more either, just like I don't want to have to be constantly defending feminism from the various daft accusations people throw at it. I am hoping that we will get enough enthusiastic supporters, and the response on this thread has certainly been great, that things will go pretty well.

Inside Me - interesting post, but right now I need to cook supper, so I'll be back later.

I have a few things to say after reading (most) posts:

I whole-heartedly agree that there has to be a "new" movement. I never got into this weight loss thing to be "sexy." I was 26, obese and I had 5 pages of abnormal blood work that could have lead to diabetes, liver and heart disease if I carried on the way I was going. This journey has always been about being healthy and fit, and it saddens and frustrates me when I read posts about women who are losing weight to 1) look good (health has nothing to do about it), 2) make an ex feel jealous, 3) be "hotter" than someone else.

I don't understand what the patriarchy or men have to do with this. I understand the point of making a women-centric community, because some women (not I) are more comfortable in that kind of environment, but if you think that the patriarchy is to blame, I think that's just going to worsen your cause. Apparently I'm in the minority when I say this, but I don't let men have all of the attention of the room. I work in a male-dominated industry, and I've learned that if you want to succeed, you let yourself be heard. I don't blame the other men for talking over me, or for the other men listening to the men talking over me, you take control. I'm very uncomfortable with the general theme of "blaming" something for what's going on. Excluding men from this kind of discussion only makes it worse, and by including them not only are we educating them on our perspective, but we're also gaining comfort in having ourselves be heard.

Lastly, yes, the male sex can be cruel in terms of weight. I was tormented as a kid for being the "fat girl" in class. Was I fat? Not really, I had big boobs and I didn't know how to dress and their way of getting my attention was teasing me. Kids do this. But as "cruel" as the boys were, the girls were crueler and remained so, even getting worse over the years. I'm not saying that all men grow out of this, I'm saying that I think women are the crueler and more judgemental of the sexes. If you want to get philosophical, you could say it's all over competition for a mate (so blame the men) but that's just biology. I think a more productive focus of a blog/community would be targeting both genders to love themselves and others for who they are, not for appearence and that making it women-centric or "blaming the patriarchy" would keep the cause stagnant.

InsideMe - There are so many possible reasons for weight gain apart from unhappiness. Baby weight, medication, less activity, eating to keep up with a new partner who's bigger than you, something related to changing job, eating a bit more than before without realising, hormonal problems. Even when there's a medical basis, it's not as simple as so many people seem to think, nor is it just, "well then it's not your fault." I didn't put on weight due to being unhappy, and while I didn't like being overweight, it wasn't making me unhappy. To be honest, I have so much going on in my life, including a major illness and a partner who has a stressful job, that my weight is not at the top of my priority list. And the things which make me happy are still there regardless of my weight. I live with quite a bit of stress, but I'd say that I'm fairly happy overall. Love and friends and books and quilting are still there whatever I weigh.

I think that what you described is true of plenty of people, and I think that for those to whom it actually applies, it's a very thoughtful, insightful approach. Just please don't think it has to apply to everyone.

Stellarosa27 - Yep, weight loss in pursuit of sexiness feels odd to me as well. If it works for some people, then hey, good for them, but they do say that weight loss tends to work the best when you are doing it purely for you, and sexiness is about how you relate to other people. The competitive thing makes me very uneasy, too.

As for your second point, arggh, I feel like I'm being asked to do an extensive definition and defence of feminism and to be frank, I'm tired and my mind is boggling at the task! You mention being uncomfortable with playing the blame game, and I am too. It's not a case of "blaming" as such, and it's not about individual men, but more understanding the way our concepts of weight and body image has been shaped by our society, which is often greatly misogynist. It could be something as simple as the current tradition that women wear more sexualised clothing than men do, and how this affects us. When it comes to weight, the relationship with other women is often more troubled than the relationship with men, and yes, I think that's all connected as well and worth exploring.

I think the biggest point, however, is empowerment of women, who currently do not have much on offer in that department if they choose to lose weight. Feminism doesn't matter to all women, but it's an important movement for many women, and those of us who do identify as feminists want to be able to continue thinking and behaving within a feminist framework while we lose weight, and to continue being supported by other feminists. And women who don't identify as feminists want to be respected and supported as well, regardless of their views on the political aspects. As you say, learning to love ourselves and others for who we are is enormously important.

On one hand, I believe that there are weight loss issues that are more salient to women, especially in terms of breaking gender-role stereotypes, and cultural expectations for women to meet unrealistic standards of beauty (though often women are the keepers of these standards. Women judge women far more harshly than men).

And on the other hand, I think that it's equally important to make weight loss a gender-neutral or non-biased agenda - because obesity is becoming a multi-national health crisis, and in many ways men fare worse than women, because there is less social support for men when it comes to weight loss.

Weight loss, particularly within the support group arena, has traditionally been treated as a femine endeavor. It's a common social stereotype that "real men don't diet," (or at least don't talk about it with other men).

As women, we actually have the advantage over men in many ways when it comes to weight loss (I realize this amounts to weight loss blasphemy, when it's often assumed that because men tend to lose weight faster than same-weight women, that they have the weight loss advantage. Or that because men don't tend to talk about weight loss openly, that it's not important to them).

We assume that our culture is much more discriminatory of female obesity than male obesity, but some of the research in the field is actually quite surprising. In terms of the consequences of obesity, especially extreme obesity, males generally fare worse both socially and physically. I found that very surprising.


I don't know that I would have cared all that much, except that my husband and I both were pretty close to our highest weights when we met. His top weight was probably around 420 lbs, and mine 394.

It's been really hard to help him diet, because (like many, perhaps even most American males) he sees dieting as something "women do." Seeking weight loss support is also often seen as almost exclusively feminine. Women outnumber men in weight loss support groups by as much as 10 to 1, or even more.

I think our current cultural norms and social expectations are damaging men and women, but in different ways. Maybe that's why support should be segregated, or maybe that's why it's even more important to integrate. I'm not sure.

I'm a fairly independent, out-going, assertive individual. Only a few decades ago, these were traits considered almost exclusively "male." Our culture is more accepting of cross-gender behavior than ever before - but it's often worked against us all (male and female), because we often expect people of both genders to be able to "do it all." It's also often seen more acceptable for women to cross gender-roles than for men to. We don't blink when women take on traditionally male roles, but we tend to be surprised when men do (and not always in a positive way).

My husband does needlework, and we've experienced the weird uber-praise from women in crafting circles, as if it's a miracle that a male could even figure out how to thread a needle, let alone use one. But it's such a condescending praise, that my husband and I both find it creepy. They treat us as if he's my pet-pony and I've somehow managed to teach him a "cute" trick. He's praised, but not taken seriously. Of course, he's very big and intimidating looking, with long-hair and a viking-biker vibe, so people do tend to keep criticism in check (that I kind of find funny - because although he's big and scary looking, he's the biggest marshmallow on the planet).

We're also treated as freaks when people learn that my husband does most of the cooking, or that we each do our own laundry (and share the shared laundry).

My husband has always been very non-judgemental and supportive of personal-freedom, and non-traditional gender roles, but he was still surprised that I was interested in him when we met, because I had the better paying job, I was more educated, and I was 4 years older.

Even when you don't accept the current culture-norms, it's still hard not to be influenced by them, especially when you're raised smack-dab-lower-middle-class. In which most of your friends and family fall right into the steretypical roles.

It's also hard sometimes to complain about the current status-quo, when you've experienced so much worse. When I was young, I had friends and relatives telling me that I would never find a husband, because I was too fat, too smart, and too outgoing. My aunt actually told my mother that I was making myself "unmarriageable" by getting my masters degree (it would have been "different" if I were rich or beautiful).

I also think that "convincing men" is sometimes seen as the primary agenda of feminism, but in fact, I don't think it ever was (or should have been).

In virtually all human societies, women are the primary transmitters of culture, because we are the primary caregivers and teachers of children. If we all had a unified agenda, men would follow suit (if only in the next generation).

But we don't all agree on gender roles (or lack of them), so "feminism" may be an out-dated concept (uh oh, entering blasphemous waters, I know).

I don't mean outdated as in "no changes necessary," but as in there is no single feminist agenda (there probably never has been, but there were often more unifying agenda-points - such as property rights, contraception, voting...).

Discrimination has become a much more subtle force, and subtle forces are notoriously difficult to fight, especially when everyone has different views on what needs to change and how to go about making those changes, and even who should be in charge of or responsible for those changes.

I'm starting to ramble, I know. It's just a more complicated issue than it appears on the surface.

First I would say that my religion is a women only feminist/woman centered & Goddess Worshiping path so I have some experience with the women only debate lol

I love women only space and women focused space. I think that it allows some women to feel more comfortable and open about certain things. It isn't that I don't value mens thoughts, or opinions but in some instances you just want that focused energy.

It would kindof feel like if I came here to share my weight loss woes and several people who had never ever had a weight problem decided to give me advice or comment. It could be the most well meaning thoughts in the world and even helpful. But I come here for fellow support and even though we all might not have the same exact issues many of us have the same feelings or issues and can share in that connection.

It is the same with women only space. Not that you do not value men and sometimes want them around and other times you would rather just have that feminine focus.


I also don't see anything wrong with wanting to lose weight to be sexy. I think there can be alot of issues with finding the right balance but I think they are deeper then being sexy or not. Like for one thing not everyone has the same definition of sexy. I have a mad girl crush on Angelina Jolie and many guys find her sexy and then I have met several who are not attracted to her at all. No matter what you won't be sexy to everyone. I think it is about feeling sexy in your own mind. & knowing the difference.

I have read alot of threads where we list our reasons for such like shoving our skinny selfs in someones face. But I think I have always read where the person they want to show off to is/has been a pretty horrid person to them. And they wanna have a pretty woman moment where she walks into the shop looking awesome and shoves it in the mean girls faces.

While it would be great to not let things like that get to us and be able to move past/forgive them. We can't all be perfect lol.

I think the opposite is true too. It is ok to want to be sexy. To want to be attractive to other people. Just like it is ok to not want to be skinny and want curves. Taking either to extremes is not ok- being the person with an attitude that you are the brightest star in the room and better then others=not ok. Being 500 lbs and thinking you are ok with your body=not ok. Just as me being a diabetic I shouldn't be like well whatever I am happy shoving pasta down my throat like my BS doesn't matter lol.

The problem is we expect people to be perfect. That we try to tell them they can't have any wiggle room. If you want to be sexy and gets looks you are in the wrong if you wanna be overweight you are wrong.



We just can't win lol. it reminds me of a quote:

Originally Posted by :
Because women's work is never done and is underpaid or unpaid or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get fired and what we look like is more important than what we do and if we get raped it's our fault and if we get beaten we must have provoked it and if we raise our voices we're nagging *****es and if we enjoy sex we're nymphos and if we don't we're frigid and if we love women it's because we can't get a "real" man and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and/or pushy and if we expect childcare we're selfish and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and "unfeminine" and if we don't we're typical weak females and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man and if we don't we're unnatural and because we still can't get an adequate safe contraceptive but men can walk on the moon and if we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion and...for lots of other reasons we are part of the women's liberation movement. ~Author unknown, quoted in The Torch, 14 September 1987

I think the real focus should just be about loving ourselves inside and out and finding out how to do that lol

I don't feel the feminist blog should be a "women's only" club.

Keeping a clear separation between socially constructed genders has never helped anyone. As kaplods nicely pointed out, being discriminated against for obesity is a phenomenon that transcends genders.

It should rather be about compassion. For example, I don't agree with InsideMe's use of the "feminine" - implying there is an essential, biological difference between genders. "Feminine" is actually contradictory to most feminist beliefs.

However, instead of attacking her for holding another view which I feel is uninformed, I would accept our differences and try to look to the core of what she is saying to really understand the valid opinion she is expressing.

A Feminist blog would become very messy if we are nit-picky and do not treat everyone with compassion. There are simply too many dissenting theories and we've all read something differently.

We need to bring up a variety of topics - even if they are faux pas to feminism. The atmosphere should be open and willing to look at all events with fresh eyes. For example, despite the fact that I do spend my days at the university, I do, also, think about my muffin-top and other superficial, vanity matters.