[Serbrider]

Maybe... I dunno. She's smart... beautiful... and she's always talking about how she is... how all the guys stare at her... how other people (except for people larger than she is... and she made this distinction very clear) are always nice to her... and like her...

I guess I just don't understand her mind. Most people... I can figure out. She just bamboozles me though. Probably because she is such a polar opposite of me...

[ParadiseFalls]

I see you've kind of talked it out, but I just want to throw this out there: I firmly believe that low self-esteem is real, and I think you may be mistaken to equate it with lack of motivation. I'm successful in the things I do—I'm editor of the independent student paper in my area, I have interned at professional publications, etc.—but in terms of self-image and how I feel about myself as a person, my opinion is very low. But the fact that I don't necessarily think I deserve to be successful and I hate a lot of things about myself doesn't stop me from doing the best for myself that I can.

[Serbrider]

I have already talked about it with her. It's something we've been talking about for the past two months. I also have to admit that I'm kind of annoyed with her... because a couple weeks ago I told her about me feeling like I had chronic depression... because I fit every single symptom... right down to being extremely tired and having daily thoughts of suicide. Not ever planning out suicide... just thoughts like "there are pills downstairs" and "I could just drive this car off the road, or into another car" and so on. How easy it is for me to die... and why not? Well... I went and told all of this to her... and because I'm not suicidal (despite the thoughts), I asked her to ask adults for advice... but to leave me anonymous. Well... she went and told my parents. Indirectly... but she knew it'd get back to my parents.

And because my mom and I don't have the best relationship... I kind of had to shake myself out of that. I still have those thoughts almost daily. Less with the exercise and better diet... but maybe because I'm feeling good about my "breakthrough" on saturday. Maybe this is just my subconsious evil thinking "you don't know what you're talking about"... but... I dunno. She goes through days where she is like "I love myself... I love everything about myself... everyone loves me"... then she turns and tells me stuff like "y'know I have low self-esteem right?"

Maybe it's the way she says it that makes me a disbeliever... I don't know.

[Thighs Be Gone]

Self-esteem is very real and definitely the core of all of us. From the time we are babies it is either built and nurtured, or it is diminished and destroyed. If you fall into the latter category, it can be difficult to build later no matter how hard you try. Your story is your own. Side by side comparisons like you are making aren't possible.

[juliastl27]

Originally Posted by Vladadog

Another thing to consider, your friend may be willing to confide in you that she doesn't have the confidence she needs/wants to do certain things but with people she's less comfortable with she may try to just get by (hoping no one notices) or use some easy excuse "oh, I can't; my folks won't let me..."

this.

[astrophe]

"I love myself... I love everything about myself... everyone loves me"... then she turns and tells me stuff like "y'know I have low self-esteem right?"

Bad self esteem is real.

Perhaps it is true in her case -- or perhaps not. I don't know her or you, and I don't mean to sound rude. I'm just thinking out loud, ok?

But maybe she does have bad or low self esteem. So she goes around saying to you and others "I'm so great, I'm so great!" trying to pump herself up. And maybe it works for a little bit and then she deflates again. So she gets more frantic about pumping herself up. It gets over the top with the "I'm so great!" stuff.

I know a person with poor self esteem who overcompensates this way.

Acts/says person is great, expert, fabulous, can do anything but really the person seeks reassurance, approval, validation or worth from others because the person does not assure/approve of/validate/value themselves. But since they don't believe in themselves, they have a hard time believing OTHER people who say they are just fine, relax, etc. Surely they must be crazy. There is no WAY Person is worthy. So they crank up with the "I'm so great!" business hoping someone will agree and validate. But really it is running in circles.

Or perhaps she's confused, and she might have something else entirely. Like bipolar disorder. When she's high, she totally high and feeling up and the world is great, she's great, etc. When she's low, she's totally low and feeling like the world is awful, she's terrible, etc. She might call it "low self esteem," but it might be another condition that she just doesn't know the name of yet. I have a relative with BPD and til the dx we didn't know what the problem was. Weird self esteem periods and crazy hyper happy periods.

Or maybe she's fine, and just likes yanking your chain?

Who knows? In the end, the bottom line is up to you. Do you want to stay friends? If so, this seems to be part of the package here.

A.

[Serbrider]

I think this is more of a vent to let of some steam... her issues with this tends to be the topic of conversation all the time. I guess I'm getting a little tired of hearing about it... and her saying she is feeling better and more confident... and then next she's asking me for advice on how to be more confident. I guess I'm just tired of giving her advice... and then when I ask her for advice... she goes and tells my parents... and then lies to my face about it (she later told me the truth... that's how I know it WAS her).

I dunno... it's not something that bothers me to the point of breaking up the friendship... I guess I'm just getting tired of hearing about it... which could be why I'm now saying stuff like "it doesn't exist"... because to me... it's now starting to sound like an excuse she keeps making to me and to herself in order to say "I don't have to do stuff because I have low self-esteem". But... that could just be my perception of it.

Like I said... nothing I'd break up the friendship about... but it's getting kind of annoying having to constantly hear about it.

[mandalinn82]

and then when I ask her for advice... she goes and tells my parents... and then lies to my face about it (she later told me the truth... that's how I know it WAS her).

I just have to comment on this really quickly. When I was about your age, I went through some major depressive stuff, including talk/consideration of suicide (which later progressed to cutting and other self-destructive behavior). While it feels like a betrayal to you now, I am eternally grateful to my friends that "went behind my back" to talk to my parents and school counselors about my depression and suicidal thoughts. Those people let my parents know that there was a problem, which enabled me to actually start getting help.

Telling someone about suicidal thinking, even if it's not specific, and asking them to promise not to give anyone your name is asking for what the counselors in my school called "the deadly promise" - because in cases where teen suicide is a real threat, keeping silent or withholding names can mean someone loses their life.

Just try to consider it from your friend's perspective - she cares enough about your mental health that she will risk you being mad as all get out at her for telling your parents to ensure that you're safe.

[Serbrider]

Oh... I understand WHY she did it. I'm not upset about that. But I wasn't suicidal. I'm still not.

The biggest thing that got me is that when I confronted her... she lied to my face about it... then... later... when she admitted it... and I asked her why she lied... she said "habit", and then "I dunno... just did".

It would have been fine for me (and is now) if she had just said "oh... yeah... I did. I'm sorry... but I just care too much about you"... or something along those lines.

In the end... all she did say in the end about it was: "you can hate me all you want, I did this... and I feel good about doing it."

Umm... huh? SHE felt good about doing it? I'm confused... I thought it was out of concern for me...

I dunno... I just don't understand her.

[kaplods]

Originally Posted by Serbrider

Oh... I understand WHY she did it. I'm not upset about that. But I wasn't suicidal. I'm still not.

The biggest thing that got me is that when I confronted her... she lied to my face about it... then... later... when she admitted it... and I asked her why she lied... she said "habit", and then "I dunno... just did".

It would have been fine for me (and is now) if she had just said "oh... yeah... I did. I'm sorry... but I just care too much about you"... or something along those lines.

In the end... all she did say in the end about it was: "you can hate me all you want, I did this... and I feel good about doing it."

Umm... huh? SHE felt good about doing it? I'm confused... I thought it was out of concern for me...

I dunno... I just don't understand her.

She lied because she was afraid of your anger/judgement - behavior that's very consistent with "low self esteem," shyness, social anxiety all of which exist and can be very difficult to overcome - there's even a good bit of evidence that it could be genetic (more on that in a minute).

When she said she feels "good" about her decision, I suspect it is because it WAS out of concern for you - that is she is confident that she made "the right" decision, and was trying to help not hurt you.

Now, when I said that low self-esteem, social anxiety, and shyness might even be partially genetic - there's some interesting research in the field (but unless you do study psychology, it's probably not going to interest you all that much).

I was adopted as an infant. I have absolutely no knowledge of my biological parents. I do wonder if obesity and self-confidence runs in my bio family.

I wonder because I studied adoption studies alot in college and graduate school (I have a bachelor's and master's degree in psychology). I've also always been overweight, so I studied that too. When I learned of the adoption studies on obesity, intelligence, and confidence/self-esteem that found genetic links for these and other conditions often assumed to be learned, social behavior - it made a lot of sense in my own family.

I was obese morbidly obese most of my life, even very early childhood (I'm the only person in my family to ever have been overweight before the age of 30).

My parents were told I was "going to be smart" and my parents didn't understood how the adoption agency could possibly know that about a baby. I taught myself to read before kindergarten.

I've always been more confident than anyone in my family (except my brother - who was also adopted. His confidence bordered on true fearlessness - he's more of an adrenaline junkie).

My dad is more quiet than shy, confident once he gets to know people. My mother has extreme social anxiety, and is constantly worried that people don't like her.

My younger sisters (my parents biological children) physically and emotionally take after our parents. Both aren't just pretty, they're beautiful and yet they're both quiet. One taking after dad (quiet, but fairly confident) and the other taking after mom (painfully shy and lacking in confidence, even in areas she excels).

They both follow the weight patterns of our parents too. One being effortlessly slim (which if she continues to follow Dad's pattern, she will continue to be until retirement puts on a few pounds). The other started gaining weight in her hips (right where Mom has most of her weight) around the age of 30 (also when Mom started gaining weight).




It's easy to think people are "making excuses" when you don't understand their behavior. It's easy, it's even normal, but most of the time it's also as untrue as it is true. People and their problems are complicated, and there are no easy answers. Think of all of the things in your life that other people tell you should be easy to fix (I'm sure you've been given advice that is easier said than done). She's making excuses for her behavior no less and no more than you are in all those things in your life that other people have thought were easy.

Even when you don't "make excuses," and lay all of the blame at your own feet - change isn't any easier. Change, even small changes are remarkably difficult. Made even more difficult when you're bombarded with messages that tell you the change "should" be easy.

[Serbrider]

Thanks for that kaplods. I needed a good reality check... and explanation of things.

Ok... and to kind of explain myself... I wasn't meaning the whole "excuse" thing as to make her out to be a horrible person, or I just want to ruin her life... or tell her she's the one who's wrong. I just know that this has helped me personally... because I had made a lot of excuses in the past for things I've done... and it's never helped. But now I'm trying conciously to avoid excusing myself by saying stuff like: "oh... whoops... forgot to charge my mp3 player... looks like I can't go run" or "well... all we have are chips and dip... guess I'll just eat that". These excuses have been my life for so long... I guess I naturally assumed that other people made the same kind of excuses... and would use things like low self esteem and shyness as an excuse to not face their fears. I still think that a lot of people do that... though subconciously, or not on purpose.

I dunno... I hope what I told her today helped... not harmed.