I was just showing you what I found when I went to look for Paleo and also found a similar thing on a Crossfit blog and I know Crossfit encourages a Paleo diet. I think Primal and Paleo are 2 different things? But quasi similar?

Also, not all vegetable fats are processed. I don't eat any animal products but most of my fats are nuts/avocados/etc. I rarely use oils myself.

I think if you want to gather round people that want to support eachother for Paleo/Primal or similar diets, a thread in general diets is probably the way to go

I have not yet been convinced on whether grains are, in general, bad for you -- or if certain types, like wheat, are worse. I personally have trended away from wheat in particular, but do wish I knew *the answer*.

Here is a very thoughtful blog post discussing this conundrum:
http://diabeticmediterraneandiet.com...%C2%A0strokes/

I went to a grain free diet about 5 weeks ago and have finally been losing weight. I've been eating healthy for so long, yet including brown rice, oatmeal, whole wheat bread, etc. and just wasn't getting any results from that lifestyle, I finally experiemented with this as I thought I'd tried almost everything else and sure enough the weight has been coming off fast and I've been losing belly fat.

I think the Primal way of eating works for me and I'm enjoying it and won't go back to eating grains, but I can see how everybody will experience different results depending on genetic dispositions.

I eat meats,seafood,veggies,nuts,seeds,oils(fat),berries and minimal dairy and I love it and never feel like I'm missing out on anything. Since doing this my carpal tunnel has gone away, bloating is gone and I have more energy than ever. An example: I went to the gym on Thursday night just to walk on the treadmill to get de-stressed and after 1 mile I thought I'd jump on the elliptical for a bit, after that I was planning on going home but I had so much energy left that I jumped back on the treadmill and jogged .5 mile and then did sprints. I never have felt this good, even when I was 200 lbs and in decent shape, for me giving up grains almost feels like I've gained years to my life.

I agree with Kaplods, it really is about trial and error!

Nelie, "they", as in the doctors with popular websites promoting the lifestyle, all seem to differ a little. Dr. Davis at Heart Scan Blog is definitely a lean meat guy with an emphasis on veggies and I'm prepared to follow him if necessary. He's also under criticism from the high saturated fat guys. The Primal Blueprint folks emphasize veggies but don't worry too much about the fat content of meat, just see it as more of a side dish to the veggies. Protein Power and PaNu seem to really emphasize the high meat protein and saturated fat approach with a more limited use of veggies.

One thing I read here many times before I started posting is "whatever works for you". Ya know -- that is about the most realistic supportive advice I can think of and it is probably what drew me to a site "for chicks".

I need to find what works for me, and before starting a diet this year, I invested about... well, since New Year's resolution day I have been planning and reading and trying to find something I believe will turn a "healthy weight loss diet" into a sustainable lifestyle. I can't yo yo again. I was prepared to go raw vegan if that's where the reading led me. I stumbled on this and am fairly blown away by the education. If it fails I will just adjust because I care less about how I get the weight off than any specific diet plant. It's just got to get done. Avocado oil comes highly recommended by the paleos.

koceank -- thanks for that report. it is motivating! keep up the good work.

CJZee -- I recommend not just the top post at Whole Health Source, but reading the 90+ comments if you have the time. It's titled: Grains as Food: an Update.

This is the kind of geeky stuff I have been reading. The DART study is a controlled trial -- meaning it is somewhat definitive science. The study referred to in your link is a Meta analysis -- or observational, and far from definitive because observations vary widely. Dr. Guyenet is a bench researcher, lab scientist, on obesity. He has NOT endorsed the paleo diet, but he comments on it constantly and seems to lean in it's direction -- a little. He is cautious. This is what he had to say about the research you linked to compared to the research he just posted about.

bold mine...

In the DART study heart attacks and death were significantly higher for those eating whole grains.

We're all going to die. Millions of people have lived long healthy lives eating a variety of different ways including plenty of grains. So whatever works is still great advice, but for me, grains seem to be the major issue keeping me fat and unhealthy. Dropping them appears to have a significant heart benefit according to the bleeding edge research. That's gravy.

There is a thread already for Primal Blueprint, if that would suit you.

Thanks Julie. A carb counting forum. Perfect. Great sig, btw, and the pics are inspiring. If my "bacon diet" fails maybe vegetarianism gets another go.

How about baconarianism?

I have a friend who when I met her, described herself as a vegetarian who eats bacon (considering it an honorary vegetable?) I thought she was joking (and she was, but only kind of). Except for crispy meat (bacon and some jerky) she can't stand the texture of meat, whether it be red meat, poultry, or fish.

I've been teasing her, calling her a baconarian.

We could write a book about the Baconarian Diet and probably sell a few hundred thousand, if money is more important than health and weight loss.

Thank you much, BibBob. I have actually shifted to a loose paleo/primal diet. Still evolving (no pun intended).

My husband and I were just talking about this a couple hours ago.

Me: (after seeing some stupid ad on a billboard) "You know, we could make ****loads of money, if we didn't mind lying."

He: Damned scruples.



I have to say that I don't have a fully formed theory of optimal human nutrition, or even weight loss nutrition. For most of my life, I bought into "necessary food group" theories. First, the four food groups (Bread/Starches, Meat & Protein, Dairy, and Fruits and Vegetables), and then the six diabetic food exchanges (Starch, Meat, Protein, Dairy, Fat, Fruits, Vegetables) the (old) Food Pyramid (Grains and cereals, Vegetables, Fruits, Dairy, Protein and fats/oils/sweets) and the new Food Pyramid (Grains, Vegetables, Fruits, Dairy, Proteins, Oils).

I never gave low-carb diets more than a token a chance ( a couple weeks at here and there when I was so desperate I didn't care about healthy. Then a few weeks in I'd "come to my senses.") because after all, "everyone knows that low-carb diets are unhealthy and unsustainable."

I was an idiot. If I had only known how easy weight loss could be on low-carb (and if I'd known the nutritional history of grains), life would have been so much easier. I bet I would have gotten my weight under control 20 years ago, if only I had known.

If wishes were horses...

I'm not sure where my diet will end up. I find the Low-carb and the paleo/primal theories based on nutritional anthropology interesting (and more compatible with the results I've seen so far, with my own diet) and the "good calories, bad calories," and "good carb" plans too. Although I don't lose very well on the "good carb" plans, so I think I have to be extremely cautious with grains at this point (the only one I include fairly regularly is rice and quinoa, in small amounts).

Since I eliminated most grains, my autoimmune symptoms have drastically improved, (to the point my doctor is tentatively calling it remission).

Of course, all of this could be coincidence, but I don't think so. I've played guinea pig too many times, experimenting with grains until I'm fairly confident that they actually are affecting the autoimmune disease. I was very skeptical of the anti-grain information (such as the research cited in Life Without Bread and Dangerous Grains), especially the research linking grains consumption and autoimmune disease (both historically and in modern populations. These books led me to the paleo diets) so when I decided to try going nearly grain-free, I didn't expect it to work either for weight loss or autoimmune symptom control. I was wrong on both counts.

It's hard to ignore a "remission" of a disease that I was initially told would likely be fatal (even cancer can go into mystery remissions, but that I had a partial relapse around the holidays after eating sugar/grain goodies when visiting my family in IL, I'm convinced there's something to this grain-autoimmune thing).

DS, 21 yrs, has ben diagnosed with Crohn's an auto immunue disease. He is benefitting from medicines used with other auto immune diseases. I am going to start looking into the grain link more closely. Klopds, as always, love your posts.

Hi BibBob -- Thanks, I have an RSS feed to WholeHealthSource.com and read it every day. I like Stephan because he is not afraid to change his mind and he goes with the science.

Another really good blog is "Cooling Inflammation" by Dr. Art Ayers, a PhD in Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology. His thrust is that, for many people, our "gut flora" (the good microbes and bacteria in our gut) have been destroyed or modified too much by antibiotics and other things. The lack of good gut flora causes inflammation and a myriad of problems, and he thinks inflammation is the root cause of many diseases and premature aging.

Here is the diet he recommends. (PS - Ignore the ad for the "sardine diet" at the top, I hate those ads but people need a way to pay for their blog, I suppose.) I also look at his blog everyday, I find it fascinating.

One common denominator of the "good" bloggers is that they actually listen to comments made on their blogs and they learn from each other. I've often thought that, in the modern world, we stratify ourselves too much, that we need cross-fertilization among disciplines to learn and grow. This is true not only for the health field, but everything, but -- of course -- right now I am following the health bloggers because that is what interests me.

Karen925 -- Dr. Ayers has lots of comments on Crohn's Disease, here are some blog posts mentioning them. Link here. I did not take the time to go through them, but I think you will find lots of good info.

CJZee, I am very upset with you at the moment. I saw Cooling Inflammation in the blog roll at Whole Health Source and ignored it because the title didn't mean anything to me, and frankly, I have way too much to read on this topic anyway. Now I am hooked. What a great resource. My kid is upset with you too, because I promised to have the pool cleaned by 11, and I haven't even started because of that site you directed me to.

ps.. thanks...

good stuff

I just stumbled upon this suggestion. Thanks for the link. I might even understand it better after thinking about this topic and reading GCBC.

You're welcome! Glad you saw the post ... I probably should have sent you a personal message. I love the site "Cooling Inflammation". Dr. Ayers will also often personally respond to you if you make a comment on whatever blog topic he's most recently blogged about. He's a Ph.d, not an M.D., so he's coming from a really different viewpoint that I find very helpful. I had not realized that many of us have low-grade chronic inflammation which underlies many diseases. I myself have gotten rid of GERD 100% using his recommendations. I used to be on daily medication but no more.