[UnicornsandPink]

ps thank you for the welcomes!

[nelie]

Originally Posted by UnicornsandPink

who said i don't eat a mostly vegan diet and eat salmon? i do. i like salmon and i like swiss cheese haha. i don't do dairy for the most part because it makes me sick. i came to enjoy the vegan foods i was eating and for the most part i still eat them. occasionally i have some swiss cheese on my bocca burger, and once a week i have salmon or some other kind of sea food. when i stopped the complete vegan lifestyle is when i started loosing weight. i don't know if that has to do with the addition of salmon and the omega fatties, but something worked and i'm glad that i made the switch. again with the classifications? jc, i am an ovo lacto vegetarian(and i can't even seem to SPELL it right)that's as far as i will go in over classifying myself.

Well people usually say "I miss cheese and eggs" and go from vegan to ovo lacto vegetarian. I can see someone enjoying the vegan diet but missing salmon so adding salmon. It just sounded weird to say "I missed salmon so I added salmon, eggs and cheese back into my diet". I sincerely support anyone who reduces the amount of meat and other animal products in their diet. When I decided to give up meat, I told my husband that he could eat meat, dairy and eggs if he wanted because it was my choice. I told him that I don't think dairy is especially healthy or meat. (Although I avoid eggs, I think they are probably one of the least unhealthy). He also loved fish and I told him of the meats, fish was probably the best choice so again if he wanted, he could still have fish at least occasionally. In the first couple months, he did eat meat a couple times, mostly fish and I supported him because his meat consumption went from once a day to once every other week. So I would applaud anyone who has reduced their animal product consumption but still may eat some.

Again though, I do wish those that do eat meat like yourself wouldn't tell people you are vegetarian. It isn't a badge of honor and the issue isn't you telling vegetarians and vegans you are a vegetarian, it is telling those who don't understand vegetarianism that you are a vegetarian.

You could tell vegetarians/vegans all day that you were vegetarian and I wouldn't bother saying anything about it. It is the people who don't know anything about vegetarians that see you eat fish and say "oh vegetarians must eat fish!". Trust me, they do. I know someone who has a vegetarian (ovo lacto) son and he has been that way for many years. They even said to me something about vegetarians eating fish. I thought it was weird considering that they didn't know vegetarians don't eat fish and their son would not be happy if they tried to feed him fish.

[shananigans]

I agree with nelie, I think people should try to the best of their abilities to be accurate in their description of what they eat so there is less frustration and confusion in general. The individual still has the ultimate responsibility on communicating what they do and do not eat and taking responsibility for what goes in his or her mouth, but we can all agree that labels can be somewhat useful, but only so far as they are understood. So it would be nice if you could refrain from telling others you're a vegetarian if you aren't, at least not without qualifying it so others would understand that vegetrians generally don't eat whatever animal product it is that you eat.

I know that a lot of people get fed up with the perceived “sanctimonious veg*an” because they feel they are being attacked for a personal choice, and I would agree that there are some obnoxious in-you-face people out there. Just to play devil’s advocate though, I don’t think choosing to consume animal products is strictly a personal choice. To me, a personal choice affects only that person in any meaningful way, and as such I generally feel people can make whatever personal choices suit them. Want to dye your hair purple? Fine. Worship the flying spaghetti monster? Knock yourself out. But choosing to eat animals and their secretions not only affects the consumer, it affects the animals that are consumed in a pretty big way. Therefore, not strictly a personal decision. I am not vegan because I think it makes me look so cool and superior or something, I am vegan because I believe every living being has a right to its own life, to not be commodified and treated as mere property. So next time someone gets a little uppity about it, just understand that from some people’s point of view we are surrounded by a massive holocaust that almost no one seems to be bothered by. I try not to think about it too much because if I did I my head would explode, but yeah, it can make you a little raw sometimes.

[kaplods]

shananigans,

I think you've indirectly addressed what I think underlies a large part of this discussion, which we've all been carefully, and politely skirting. Avoiding this issue has allowed the conversation to remain quite polite, but also an unavoidable issue is being ignored.

There is a fundamental rift between the beliefs of some veg*ns and most omnivores (and even between some vegans and vegetarians, both within and between), and that is whether or not it is ethically acceptable to eat or use animals and animal products and if so, which animals, and under what circumstances.

Where each of us draws that line, is going to vary a lot. And no amount of persuasion or discussion or debate is going to change most people's minds. While I can understand and respect "that" some people find the practice of eating meat immoral, because I don't - my understanding, and even my respect is going to be limited. I am going to "forget" (because I'm a flawed human being) how important this is to people, because it's only "so" important to me.

Some people (on any side of any issue) don't care at all what other people believe. Only what they believe matters, everyone else is WRONG. What can I say, those people are always going to do and say whatever they want to, regardless of how it affects other people. Most people are going to be willing to accomodate people of differing beliefs only so much as they are able to without violating their own moral code (and unfortunately only so much as it doesn't inconvenience them TOO much).

I think that's about as far as it goes. The problem with being a minority (any minority) is that the extent to which the majority is willing to go to accomodate the minority, I'm afraid, is generally "not that much."

As a hugely fat person, I am constantly amazed at how many waitresses try to seat me and my hugely fat husband in a narrow booth that is bolted to the floor. Anyone with eyes, should be able to see that we are not going to fit in the spot they are wanting to place us. What kind of idiot thinks my two foot thick body is going to fit in an 12 inch thick space?

If people can't grasp a concept that's staring them right in the face, anything more "cerebral" is going to be even more difficult. I'm sure skinny waitress has never once NOT fit into any chair, so why would she expect anyone else to ever have an issue (I still think looking at us and looking at the booth SHOULD be fairly obvious, but apparently it's not).

My FIL who passed away last year, was confined to a wheel chair for all the years I knew him, and it was terrible how many "handicapped accessible" facilities were far from. Unless a person could teleport themselves onto the toilet, most handicapped accessible bathrooms are useless to a person in a wheel chair.

What is even worse, I never once thought about it until he mentioned it. Now, when I see a handicapped stall, I can't help but think about how few people can actually use it. I look at it with different eyes, and see how easy it would be to improve the layouts of handicapped restrooms, and wonder why the guys designing and constructing the bathrooms don't think about it. I see it now, because it became important to me, but I was blind to it until then.

And I think that's the sad truth, people ignore what isn't important to them. Oh, they don't usually go out of their way to hurt people, but unless they have a darn good reason to care, they just don't think about it much.

[nelie]

What you say is definitely true Kaplods. There are some vegans that can't believe people can eat meat, dairy or eggs because of the ethics involved. Some vegans believe that if people only knew the horrors, that everyone would be vegan. Even I believe I am somewhat educated and I had witnessed animal slaughter from a young age, but I really couldn't believe what does go on with factory farming.

There is a great documentary which you can find on youtube called "Earthlings". Before I say anything else, I will say it is probably one of the hardest things you could ever watch if you have any compassion toward animals at all. I watched it because I was eating a vegan diet, it was a highly regarded documentary that won awards at movie festivals and I wanted to know. It devastated me to watch actual film footage of things that go on everyday. I couldn't imagine touching another piece of meat again. I think it really helped cement my ideals. I had given up leather when I gave up animal products but it was mostly because I figured if I wasn't eating it, I wasn't going to wear it. The film also helped me reaffirm that belief.

If someone wants to know, I'd recommend that documentary because I think it is powerful. I've never actually recommended it to anyone and I didn't even show it to my husband. The reason being is it is such a hard film to watch. I can imagine that for those that are vegan for animal rights reasons and have known what goes on really can't fathom people continuing to eat animal products or wear them.

It is a bit of ignorance is bliss and also a bit of 'well thats life'. I always just thought eating meat was part of life so even though some 'bad' things may happen, I could make some better choices but still wasn't going to change my eating habits much.

I do have hope for the future of animals and I do have hope for the future of humanity. I do think people will cut back on their animal consumption. I think also better choices will become available for people and I believe people will make those better choices.

[betsysunqueen]

Originally Posted by UnicornsandPink

like crazy feminists burning bras and hating men, i'm a feminist but i don't hate men and i would not burn my bra(they cost too much!).

This is waaaaay off-topic, but it is actually a misconception that feminists--"crazy" or otherwise--ever burnt bras. There was a single event in the late 1960s where one group of feminists threw their old-school uncomfortable girdles and bras in a trashcan, but there was no burning involved. A newspaper article started the myth and it has continued as a way to "otherize" feminists ever since.

[betsysunqueen]

Originally Posted by shananigans

To me, a personal choice affects only that person in any meaningful way, and as such I generally feel people can make whatever personal choices suit them. Want to dye your hair purple? Fine. Worship the flying spaghetti monster? Knock yourself out. But choosing to eat animals and their secretions not only affects the consumer, it affects the animals that are consumed in a pretty big way. Therefore, not strictly a personal decision. I am not vegan because I think it makes me look so cool and superior or something, I am vegan because I believe every living being has a right to its own life, to not be commodified and treated as mere property. So next time someone gets a little uppity about it, just understand that from some people’s point of view we are surrounded by a massive holocaust that almost no one seems to be bothered by. I try not to think about it too much because if I did I my head would explode, but yeah, it can make you a little raw sometimes.

This is so well said.

[Fat Chick B Gone]

Originally Posted by nelie

There is a great documentary which you can find on youtube called "Earthlings". Before I say anything else, I will say it is probably one of the hardest things you could ever watch if you have any compassion toward animals at all. I watched it because I was eating a vegan diet, it was a highly regarded documentary that won awards at movie festivals and I wanted to know. It devastated me to watch actual film footage of things that go on everyday. I couldn't imagine touching another piece of meat again. I think it really helped cement my ideals. I had given up leather when I gave up animal products but it was mostly because I figured if I wasn't eating it, I wasn't going to wear it. The film also helped me reaffirm that belief.

I second this recommendation though I must admit I was unable to sit through the whole thing. Granted I had already made up my mind that flesh and animal products are ethically wrong and didn't need any convincing. I will one day finish it.
Ignorance is bliss- perhaps but I don't think so and I do think people should know the whole story before they chow down on their steak at night. Any time I think hmm some cheese might not be so bad all it takes is a quick recall into some of the things I've learned and that cheese is about the most foul thing I could think of.
Some also dismiss this as "oh it's extreme and doesn't happen often". I don't believe this but even if it were true it happens at least a majority of the time and that makes it wrong.

Sorry this is off topic to the original post but I just personally wish someone had opened my eyes a long time ago instead of me just thinking oh it doesn't matter.

Stepping off soapbox now.

[Fat Chick B Gone]

Originally Posted by shananigans

So next time someone gets a little uppity about it, just understand that from some people’s point of view we are surrounded by a massive holocaust that almost no one seems to be bothered by. I try not to think about it too much because if I did I my head would explode, but yeah, it can make you a little raw sometimes.

well said

[shananigans]

Thanks for taking what I said as I meant it I was a bit worried someone might take offense, but I felt that ground ought to be covered in this thread.

I know that few people hold my beliefs, and that even if everyone were exposed to what I have learned they may not draw the same conclusions. I don't think people eat animal products because they're bad people, I definitely try not to be judgmental and accusatory about it. I share information and have a discussion where I see it might be welcome and received, but realize it's a sensative subject that need to be treated with some care. I do try my best to be nice to all animals, human animals included.

[THE Heather]

It is the people who don't know anything about vegetarians that see you eat fish and say "oh vegetarians must eat fish!".

I know it's been said several times before, but this is the biggest misconception of vegetarianism. For example, my sister came over (she's about seventeen now) and she saw that while she was having a burger I was having a tofu veggie stirfry. She asked, "Are you a vegetarian or something?" in which I replied, "Yes." It's no big secret. Then she went on to tell me, "Don't forget to eat some fish so you don't lose your hair."

That was a o_0 moment for me.

Of course I used it for an educating moment.

[nelie]

Originally Posted by Fat Chick B Gone

I second this recommendation though I must admit I was unable to sit through the whole thing. Granted I had already made up my mind that flesh and animal products are ethically wrong and didn't need any convincing. I will one day finish it.
Ignorance is bliss- perhaps but I don't think so and I do think people should know the whole story before they chow down on their steak at night. Any time I think hmm some cheese might not be so bad all it takes is a quick recall into some of the things I've learned and that cheese is about the most foul thing I could think of.
Some also dismiss this as "oh it's extreme and doesn't happen often". I don't believe this but even if it were true it happens at least a majority of the time and that makes it wrong.

Sorry this is off topic to the original post but I just personally wish someone had opened my eyes a long time ago instead of me just thinking oh it doesn't matter.

Stepping off soapbox now.

Well I think that is the important part. Even if you do eat animal products, that at least you should know what goes into your food and what happens to your food. I think after I saw the documentary, I was in the process of using up the meat in my freezer by cooking it for my cats and dog. I was definitely more thoughtful about the meat I was handling, even if it wasn't for me to eat.

Oh and it also made me want to hug my cats and dog even more. I think it also was part of the reason we ended up getting a second dog.

[KateB]

I choose not to eat red meat very often. But I DO NOT claim to be vegetarian or vegan or anything else.

I have a cousin who is vegetarian, her parents were lacto-ovo vegi, so she has ate that way all her life. BUT when Sara comes to Minnesota to visit she tells Gramma she is veggie but she will eat turkey and fish. She does this to make it easier for our 85 year old gramma who gets so stressed out trying to figure out what to cook while Sara visits. I think it is a kind guesture on Sara's part.

I actually have a few questions for the vegi and vegan crowd. I hope I don't ruffle feathers with the questions, but I am not very good at "sugar coating" things....unless it is cereal or a donut. So here goes....

#1 Let's say by some act of congress or God or moral awakening the whole world, or even the whole US became Vegan tomorrow. What would happen to all the animals currently being raised for consumption? Who then is responisble for feeding them? Do they get set free...and if so then what? Cattle have been domestic animals for generations, could they survive in the "wild" on their own? Pigs probably could survive, but look at places with populations of ferrel pigs and see the problems they cause. Also, the effect on the nations economy would be devastating.

#2 And this might just me a little gripe of mine...but I have heard many vegan hop on the soap box and berate people for eating "Another Living Thing"....Just an observation...Plants are also "Living".

I have not seen "Earthlings". We live on a farm, we raise our own chickens for eggs and meat. We have raised hogs, we have raised cattle. I know what it takes to get the steer from the barn to the freezer to the table. I admire those that can give up all animal products. I cannot imagine being vegan and trying to order a meal in a restaurant. At least not the restaurant choice we have around here. I do not however admire the ones in the vegan or vegi community who berate others for not being vegan. Just my 2 cents.

[SoulBliss]

Originally Posted by THE Heather

"Don't forget to eat some fish so you don't lose your hair."

Maybe I should post a picture of my waist length, thick and healthy hair.

I actually had a woman complement me on my hair last week, saying it was so thick and beautiful. She said:"What's your secret? Do you eat a lot of protein?". I said "Well, I am vegan, that's my secret!" We then had a great conversation and I talked about omega fatty acids, organic living (we were at the Co-op). She used to be vegan herself and it was a nice discussion.

[SoulBliss]

Originally Posted by KateB

I actually have a few questions for the vegi and vegan crowd. I hope I don't ruffle feathers with the questions, but I am not very good at "sugar coating" things....unless it is cereal or a donut. So here goes....

#1 Let's say by some act of congress or God or moral awakening the whole world, or even the whole US became Vegan tomorrow. What would happen to all the animals currently being raised for consumption? Who then is responisble for feeding them? Do they get set free...and if so then what? Cattle have been domestic animals for generations, could they survive in the "wild" on their own? Pigs probably could survive, but look at places with populations of ferrel pigs and see the problems they cause. Also, the effect on the nations economy would be devastating.

#2 And this might just me a little gripe of mine...but I have heard many vegan hop on the soap box and berate people for eating "Another Living Thing"....Just an observation...Plants are also "Living".

Hey Kate, this link addresses your questions.

As far as plants being "living", the reality is, they don't have a central nervous system, don't bleed, aren't in the animal kingdom. We can't escape the fact that we are carbon-based beings and must eat *something* to survive. Plants are a good choice for vegans.

http://www.viva.org.uk/goingveggie/top20.html

1a. If we all went vegetarian, we’d be overrun with animals?

Farmed animals are not allowed to reproduce naturally and farmers only breed animals when they can make a profit out of doing so. As demand for meat goes down over time, so fewer and fewer animals will be bred. That means that we will not be overrun by millions of farmed animals, as some people seem to imagine. Eventually, the few that are left can be allowed to go free: pigs can root around in woodlands as it is natural for them to do, sheep will graze the hillsides like deer and so on. Their populations will find their own natural levels, just like every other animal.

1b. If we all went vegetarian – all the animals would die out.

The converse of the above question – we veggies hear ‘em all! It's true that the number of animals will fall as farmers breed fewer and fewer animals as the years go by. Farmed animals live a controlled, distorted life, often filled with pain and fear. The vast majority of farmed animals are kept in indoor units where they never see the light of day. Those that are kept outside are only kept alive for a fraction of their natural lifespans before being slaughtered for meat - often in the most barbaric manner imaginable. All farmed animals are born to die at our command - a disgusting idea. Also some breeds have been so changed from their natural ancestor that it would be kinder to let them die out. For example, broiler chickens and turkeys bred for meat are often so obese that they can barely walk and suffer from crippling leg disorders. However we could set up large nature reserves for the more traditional (now rare) breeds that haven't been so changed.

There would be much more land available for reserves because most of it is used to grow crops for fattening animals at present. Also, there would be more space for forests and woods and other wildlife reservations where genuinely wild British species of animal and plants could flourish. In other countries we could encourage the breeding of our farm animal's wild ancestors - the wild pig, turkeys and jungle fowl (the forerunner of the battery hen) by stopping the destruction of their homes.

Many people forget that all farmed animals have been bred from wild animals – and that their natural ancestors need preserving.

In a vegetarian world animals would not be kept for profit and greed but would be allowed to exist in their natural state and live their life in freedom.


7. Plants scream when they’re pulled out of the ground or are cut up for food.

Yawn, yawn! This question is usually seen as a bit of a joke, but if you want a serious answer here goes!

Plants do not feel pain. They do not have pain receptors, nerves or a central nervous system. The ‘screaming’ that sensitive equipment has detected when plants are damaged is thought to be caused by movement of gasses. The cut releases the pressure allowing gases inside the plant to move towards the cut, making a noise as they do so. And even if plants did feel pain, the average meat eater is responsible for ten times more plants being killed than the average vegetarian (see Question 10) – because all the animals that meat-eaters consume, eat huge amounts of plants themselves.