I am an atheist (husband and I both are). While I mean no direct disrespect to anyone in particular in this post, and am not really meaning to antagonize or upset, I am trying to speak my mind as clearly as possible. I will not apologize for my thoughts or feelings, but as they do not coincide with the mainstream, someone is bound to be offended. That's fine with me, but know that my purpose was to speak my mind and express my just-as-valid thoughts, not to offend.
Also, it's incredibly long for someone's second or third post as a n00b on this forum...*shrugs*
Quote:
Originally Posted by spixiet
lizziep - I agree with a lot of what you said. And, personally, I'm not fond of "Jesus is the reason for the season," because it feels like selling things and making money has become the reason for the (extended) season - not the celebration of Jesus' life.
It is offensive because it simply isn't true. The phrase "Jesus is the reason for the season" blatantly ignores (and therein excludes) any other holiday that is not based around the alleged (if it happened, there is debate as to the time line, even in non-secular circles) birth of christ.
For one quick example of many, Yule was celebrated towards the end of
December/beginning of January, depending on the lunar Germanic calendar (I think, but I'm not pagan. Feel free to check me.)...and Yule was only set to December 25th when the christian (Julian) calendar was adopted.
(I understand that the OP has expressed understanding of this, I guess I'm just clarifying)
One religion's "success" does not magically exclude others. While everyone is free to celebrate the season as they see fit, and while jesus may indeed be the reason for the season for many, it is not the only reason that people celebrate during this time of year. I have many christian friends who also consider the phrase to be obnoxious (they understand the history of their own religion).
The season is
not celebrated solely due to the birth of a single religion's deity. The "reason for the season" is love. Peace. Goodwill. The reason for the season is hope. Love. In any and all of it's many, many forms.
That being said (and trying to get back to the main idea behind the thread), people
have the right to offend and be offended. One of the greatest parts of humanity is our ability is to constantly learn from and adapt to each other, to understand that there is not always (and, in fact, is very rarely) one correct way/thought/method/belief/idea.
To quote the OP:
"Except I hate the fact that free speech only applies when you're tearing Christianity down, and you're told to stuff it if you are celebrating Christianity"
This simply isn't true. Do you understand why it seems that the "free speech thing" comes into play when "you're tearing christianity down"?
It is because free speech is serving it's purpose:
the concept of free speech is the need to protect the smaller voice. The voice that doesn't have huge financial backing, the voice that isn't supported by countless charities and donation plates and 10% tithes. The voice that goes against the grain, that doesn't have the safety, support and luxury of mainstream acceptance.
The smaller voice is no less valid than the vocal majority and yet, it must fight incredibly hard just to be heard. The minority has the right to be seen and heard, to challenge what is comfortable and normal, to exist and offend and not be simply ignored or washed away, drowned out by the sea of louder, stronger voices.
So, why does the "free speech thing" come up when a controversial subject seeks light? Because that subject is challenging the majority, and if it is not protected by law, those who already have the ability to be heard at will (the christian masses) will simply sweep it under the rug.
Just because something (in this case, art) isn't agreeable to you (you being general, not anyone specific here) doesn't make it any less valid, any less of a piece of art.
Something you hate has just as much of a right to exist and be seen, taught, and understood as something you love.
People have the right to be offended by anything that challenges their beliefs and likes, what they hold true. However, people do not have the right to censor something offensive from the entire world. Censor your own lives, and let your voice be heard as to why you are offended, by all means...but the decision of what is "appropriate" is extremely subjective, and is simply not the decision of one to make for another.
You have the right to be offended by material, not to take the offensive material away. On that same note (admittedly, a bit less heated than the art debate), I'm bothered by the "Jesus is the reason for the season", but I have absolutely no right to demand that the sign be brought down...to tell that person to "shut up, what you think/feel bothers me and that just cannot be!"
I was raised to say "Merry Christmas"...(my hometown is heavily drenched in christianity, and even though my parents are non-religious, they were raised in christian homes) but changed of my own accord when I was five or six to "Happy Holidays" when I learned that there was more than one holiday in December and that just acknowledging my own was selfish and
not in the spirit of the holiday. How simple it can all seem when we're young.
Ooookay. Veering back out of that tangent (yikes), and back again to the heart of the matter...a lot of public places opt to say "holiday" in greetings and event titles because it is much more inclusive than "christmas". If the event is being held in a public venue, then City Hall has the right to DEMAND that the vocal majority (in this case, Christmasfolk) does not get to exclude the minority (nonChristmasfolk).
It's the free speech/art thing again, but on a smaller scale.
I shouldn't have to deal with a sparkle-light cross (however pretty) or a nativity scene when I go to the DMV. Or a
public school. While I'm not fond of the music in chain stores (Fred Meyers, Joann's Crafts, so on) this time of year, I understand the market appeal and bite my tongue.
As far as individually owned shops are concerned, you have the right to do whatever you wish. Perhaps you will lose customers over that nativity/menorah/little doggie in the window, or perhaps you will gain some...but it is your right to display.
What I'm not understanding is this: WHO is telling your church that you cannot display a Nativity scene on their property?! It's a CHURCH! The nativity is an important element of your celebration. If it is on the church's property (or, lets be fair...if the church is leasing land/in a leased building, it is still obviously established as a place of worship and should be treated as such)....there is no good reason that I can think of for you to be denied the RIGHT to display something so relevant to the celebration of your religion. I'm interested to hear the reasoning behind it.
Everyone has a right to and deserves to celebrate this season in whichever way they see fit. I will end this incredibly long-winded spiel by, oh yes, quoting an ENTIRE post. It makes sense, and sums up my ideals and sentiments well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskinomad
"Merry Christmas" doesn't offend me.
"Christmas Market" slightly offends me.
"I think it is idiotic for there to be such a problem with Christian terms. - Vdander24" and "some people are just so easily offended or maybe they just want to whine about something - nitenurse" highly offends me.
Maybe it's not the message itself that's so offensive (though it's without a doubt highly exclusive of the public if you turn a HOLIDAY market that's supposed to be open to ANY faiths into a strictly Christian one), but the deliberately offensive mentalities behind "defending" Christmas festivities that makes people so angsty.
I think nativity scenes outside of churches are absolutely beautiful. I think live reenactments are brilliant from the "Christian perspective" as well as just a fantastic nod toward history, and community involvement.
I do not think having a religion shoved down my throat when I'm trying to make a business transaction is okay - no matter what religion. If the CEO of YOUR company only gave you Ramadan off, NOT Christmas, or instead of saying "Merry Christmas" strangers constantly told your children "Happy Muharram" every time you entered into a building (which could be upwards of 15 times a day, and if your children understood what it was they were implying) - wouldn't YOU start to feel a little excluded, or overwhelmed??
Why is it that so many Christians are offended by an INCLUSIVE Holiday Market? Or an INCLUSIVE Holiday Work Party?