I may be opening a can of worms here, but I have to ask if I am getting the wrong impression of the general veg*n view (if there is such a thing) on non-veg*n lifestyles.

I ask, not to start an argument, but because as I have been searching for meat alternatives in my diet, I have encountered some very (one scary) hostile encounters with veg*n friends and aquaintances online and in-person, and even on this forum, feel a little like I might be trespassing here.

For example last year a vegetarian coworker brought in meatless buffalo wings for a unit potluck. OMG, they were SOO good, so I started talking to him about the nugget brand, and we were discussing meatless brands and uses for tvp. I admitted that I add tvp to small amounts of meat, and he begain giving me tips to give up meat completely. When he learned that I wasn't trying to give up meat entirely, it sort of shut down the conversation, and affected our conversations from then on.

I've had similar experiences in health food stores, and with friends trying to convert me. It's almost like to a number of (mostly) vegans that I'm "worse" than the average meateater, because I am "pretending" to be sympathetic, or that I somehow should know better, having seen the alternative. I don't feel I am pretending anything. I know my views are a little different than both sides' mainstream views, but I'm not hiding them, or pretending to be something I'm not. In fact, when I don't make it clear that I'm not trying to eventually give up meat, I'm often treated much more sympathetically than when I don't let people believe I am either veg*n or headed that direction.

Personally, I believe that Americans eat too much meat, and do not take as good care of our meat animals as we are should, mostly out of greed. However, I also believe that it is no more unethical for a human to eat meat as it is for a bear, though because we have a choice, knowing that your meat came from small farms that treat their animals well and kill humanely is the best choice. I also try to think of meat eating in the "paleolithic" way. Prehistoric people had to do a lot of work to get their meat, so I don't believe in eating like a hunter if you're a couch potoato. At my activity level, I wouldn't be able to catch or kill much "prey," so my goal is to try to eat like a gatherer.

This view doesn't seem very popular with many of the veg*ns in my life (or the defensive carnivores either). Is it all in my imagination, that I am feeling pressure to "choose sides," or that I am not welcome to discuss veg*n food or issues if I am not commited to at least eventually becoming veg*n.

Do you think I am unintentionally doing something to offend people, or is this just an issue that a few people find very sensitve? Is there a better way for me to communicate? Is it ok to post here if I'm not veg*n, and should I mention in each post that I'm not?

Wow, this is an interesting post. I can't wait to see others' opinions and thoughts on this.

My mom raised us to be *mostly* vegetarian. Not totally, but eating meat way less often than the average family. I found that sometimes, people do react strongly against the partial meat eating thing. I found a nice balance in my life by only eating meat that was raised ethically, and eating it less often.

Anyone who is offended because you are reducing animal useage (for whatever reason) has issues that have nothing to do with your (very reasonable and commendable) choice to eat in a more healthy and ethical way (regardless of if you do it once a day, week, month or year! ). Keep up the good work

I *do* know that many people are soooo excited to come across someone who is interested in reducing animal products and so often, in that enthusiasm and desire to assist you in the "transition", they feel you *must* believe as they do and when they find out that you don't, often the most polite thing to do is to withdraw instead of speaking up and voicing thier disappointment and so on (again, this is about them and not you, despite what it may feel like and try not to take it personal).

I don't know about the posting thing...this forum is seldom used it seems. I have only "met" one vegan and that was just today I love that you're posting! If there were ever confusion, you or someone else could easily point out that you were not a vegetarian, right? It's not an issue, to me.

That's a good point Yogini. I guess I have a hard time with anyone who believes I MUST believe as they do. I try, and am usually able to understand most perspectives and it frustrates me when someone wants to "convert" me without being willing to openly listen to my perspective as part of the dialog.

Ironically, moving to Wisconsin, the land of beef, cheese, and deer hunting, I would have expected less understanding than when we lived in Illinois, but I have not found that to be true at all. But the northern Wisconsin community where I live is very ecology conscious, because of the tourism industry and the hunting population. In Illinois, it seemed that there were more irresponsible hunters (maybe because there were fewer of them and they were less skilled) than in Wisconsin where they take hunting very seriously, and nearly all males hunt (I was surprised that even my doctors were deer hunters). There are still people who will only eat meat they kill themselves. Allowing an animal to needlessly suffer by not killing cleanly or letting a wounded deer escape to die later is looked down upon tremendously. Also dairy cattle need to be treated well, as stressed cows don't give milk, so there isn't much disagreement that you are responsible for the welfare of the animals you own or hunt. I haven't encountered any disagreement in wanting to eat meat that you don't know the source of.

My father grew up on a farm and that probably influenced my perspective. He didn't really believe in animals in the house (though Mom convinced him otherwise so that we could have pets), but was angered by people who didn't care for their animals properly. He would tell us how the pigs would rush to the fence, wanting to be sprayed with cool water in the summer. We visited my uncle's farm often and when we were younger asked how he could eat animals he had raised and was fond of. He said it would be hypocrytical to eat only other people's animals. It was weird, but it made a kind of sense. You have to acknowledge where your meal is coming from, or you're being irresponsible.

I know that's a strange perspective to most people, because even the most devoted carnivore is usually averse to eating an animal they had met when alive (even picking out your own lobster, creeps many people out). Still, that's why I think we have lost our respect for animals under our care. By depersonalizing the animals, we find it ok to treat them like a factory product instead of a living being.

Just my opinion.

Well I have a husband that jokingly tells me to stay out of the "hippie aisle" (organics, vegetarian products etc.) at the grocery store and I sometimes have a hard time reconciling both of our ideas about food. I am trying to eat and live with a more ethical and eco-friendly approach.

He is from a small country town where his family survived the winter on whatever his dad hunted. His dad hunts for food and uses every scrap - he does not hunt just for sport. He also prefers to hunt with a bow instead of a gun as he believes the animal has more of a sporting chance that way. So DH was raised that way.

My upbringing was more British meat and potatoes by my mom and more leaning towards health and vegetarianism by my dad. My dad is a vegetarian for health reasons and my mum cooks mostly veggie for him and regular for her as she hates vegetables - what a dilemma!

My compromise with DH is that we eat organically and ethically raised meat and try to eat vegetarian at least once or twice per week and doesn't bug me when I buy soy milk - the arrangement seems to be working. When we eat out he gets his steak and I get my veggie entree and usually have vegetarian lunches since I make my own lunch to take to work.

One good thing is my dad and I get to talk about what matters to us and share our ideas on diets, yoga, philosophy and ecological issues so we are an outlet for each other

Yogini - I agree with the points you made. I think if more of us interacted with animals we would think a little more about what we were eating. I also feel that a lot of people need to think more about the world we live in, how we treat our environment, animals and other people.

My husband and I also have very ecologically minded goals, even though we envision them slightly differently. We have often talked about our "master plan for independent poverty." We would eventually like to live a back to basics lifestyle, as self-supporting as possible (more temperate climate so that an eco-home would be feasible, a small farm...). We're still debating whether or not we would raise meat animals. Ironically, it's me who argues that we should (if we are going to eat meat at all regularly), because raising an animal yourself is the only way you know it was healthy and raised and killed ethically. My husband would rather buy meat, as he thinks I couldn't cope with "meeting my meat," and maybe he's right. But, I don't think we should be eating meat at all, if we're in denial as to where it comes from, or unwilling to participate in the process (otherwise, it's sort of like saying killing animals is ok, as long as I don't have to be the one to do it).


When I was a teenager and contemplated becoming vegetarian, my mother and I went to a local farm co-op to buy fresh fruits and vegetables (so much better tasting than grocery store produce). On the way home, we saw a calf stuck in a fence. We felt bad, but we didn't see a farm house in sight (and we definitely knew enough not to go near the calf with Momma cow in the meadow standing guard). When we got home, and told Dad, he scolded us for not "doing something." (This is Mr. Slab O' Meat, No Animals in the House). I guess it was then that I realized that loving and caring for animals and eating meat did not have to be mutually exclusive. It was also when I realized that caring for meat/dairy animals was a big responsibility.

Sorry to hear that you have had run-ins with rude people. I commend you on your choice to do less harm! I'm kind of similar to you, because I never intend to go completely vegan, but I do try to cut down on animal products. I think the "pretend to be sympathetic" accusation applies only if you say you're something you're not, such as if you were to say you're vegan when you're not.

Personally I've never had a bad run-in with a rude vegan, but I've heard it happens. Don't know quite what I'd do... maybe say, "Yeah, well, I'm better than you because I usually don't say out loud that I think I'm better than other people, except for now because it's so obvious that I'm better than you?" Or, "You probably think you're a nice person, but you hurt my feelings just now, and since you occasionally hurt people's feelings, you're not nice, you're just a rotten scumbag!"

So long as you are honest, you are not an intruder here.

I think there are open-minded vegans and closed-minded vegans, just the same way that there are open-minded omnivores and closed-minded omnivores. Sometimes when people feel strongly about something (whether that belief is that eating meat supports cruelty or that eating meat is natural and necessary) they can be pushy about it. Others are able to be more gentle with their advocacy.

I have met as many pushy, judgmental meat-eaters as I have veg*ns. People just come in a wide variety of personalities.

Something nobody touched on is this - Alternachicks is very accepting of just about everything and anything. I've never seen anyone get mean to anyone else about anything ever.
I wouldn't see where you would have any trouble posting on the vegan/veggie boards. I'm not vegan or veggie, but feel a lot like you do - that if you're going to do it, you should do it responsibly and less often.
Some topics are hard to approach with other people, religion, sexuality, and food choices are some of them. Sometimes, as said above, you just have to realize that not all people are good people or open-minded people, and move on. There certainly is no point in trying with people who are going to attack you for not believing what you believe... there are no real thruths, only perspectives.

When I was in high school, I was involved with the environmental club and the animal rights club. It was our task to do the school's recycling once a week. One time, while we were doing some of that, some of the "jocks" came up and said, "So, what do you want to do, be a janitor when you grow up?" or something to that effect.

I was also very strictly vegan then, and I would get most of my friends (even very close friend) who would like to challenge my lifestyle. Some would love to point out all the things that have animal products in them that we can't escape (i.e., soil is made of worm castings duh). I had other people who loved to make fun by waving bits of meat in my face and acting as if I was horribly depriving myself (how could anyone actually NOT enjoy meat, right?). Anyway, the point is that I'm used to that kind of chiding from people and I've learned not to let it bother me. My policy is that everyone has a choice of how they can live their lifestyle, and their dietary choices are their own choice. I've hardly ever had a lot of friends who share my views, but I never hold it against them so long as they are tolerant of me as well.

Minaa - I probably would have said to the jocks "No, what do you want to be when you grow up? An ignorant jackass? Well you are well on your way!"

Some people!

So many people lead different lifestyles now that people should just get over it and move on with their own life.

This is a great thread.

I really don't think I even know a vegan and maybe only a couple vegetarians...living where I do thats not much of a shocker (fairly near a place they call "feedlot alley" and big time ranching and farming area). I'm not a complete vegetarian either but I'm moving in that direction for health reasons (I think that not liking the taste of meat is my body's way of saying reconsider what you are eating) and personal ones (If its against my personal values to eat a dog or horse shouldn't it also be against my values to eat a cow or pig or chicken?). On the other hand I think that if animals are raised naturally and killed humanely I can't see it as "wrong". So I can see how that makes sense to you.

I think the problem is its such an emotional issue for people on both sides. The people who raise meat animals feel like you are attacking their way of life when you say you don't eat meat. On the other hand people who are moral vegans or vegetarians (as opposed to health focused) feel like you are ignoring their moral values when you don't stop eating all meat.

My solution is to not tell anyone what or how I eat. If they notice thats fine. If they ask I may tell them my position. But I don't bring it up. Realistically its not something that ever came up before I started cutting out meat so why should it come up now? May seem like copping out but is it really anyone's business? (Okay...I have to admit...this IS chickening out...my family is made up of ranchers and farmers...they would think I'm even nuttier than they already do if I announced I was giving up meat...I figure what they don't know won't hurt them)

On a different topic I would love to see this forum become more active...I hope you've spiced things up a bit.

Casey

kaplods, I totally know what you mean about annoying people trying to "convert" you, but in my case, it's the meat-eaters that try to convert me back to meat! Personally, I don't bother anyone about what they eat. Diets are kinda personal, ya know? I grew up eating meat (and I used to be very pro-meat-eating, I'll tell ya that! ) and my whole family eats meat. They weren't very supportive when I went vegetarian some years back. They kept telling me that I'd "go back to meat" and it's been 9 years now! I'm big into "live and let live"--you eat what you want (unless it's people, hahaha!), and I'll eat what I want.

Hope you meet some nicer vegetarians/vegans. I've never met any vegetarians like that, but I know they're out there; they're as bad as some of the meat-eating folks I've met. I guess jerks are everywhere.