Hi, Turtle Buddies,

Here it is - my "official" version of the fable:

The Hare and the Tortoise

A hare met a tortoise one day and made fun of him for the slow and clumsy way in which he walked.

The tortoise laughed and said, "I will run a race with you any time that you choose."

"Very well," replied the hare, "we will start at once."

The tortoise immediately set off in his slow and steady way without waiting a moment or looking back. The hare, on the other hand, treated the matter as a joke and decided to take a little nap before starting, for she thought that it would be an easy matter to overtake her rival.

The tortoise plodded on, and meanwhile the hare overslept herself, with the result that she arrived at the winning-post only to see that the tortoise had got in before her.

Moral: Slow and steady wins the race.

This comes from a book handed down from my grandmother to my mother to me. The book is so old it doesn't have a copyright date or an author/editor's credit.

That fable has been the motivation for us turtles for about two years. Someone on the ancient WW forum mentioned the fable and I discovered it was very motivational for me. I talked about it in posts and other people said that the tortoise philosophy worked for them, too. So, I started a thread for us turtle types.

We work toward accepting that our bodies have a natural speed of weight loss when we choose to live a healthy life, instead of "going on a diet". Many of us have experienced "the diets" as go on/lose weight-- go off/ gain the weight plus more back.

We choose to perservere with each choice we make throughout the day. We believe that choosing to be slow, steady turtles helps us to learn the skills we need to learn in order to not only lose the weight, but keep it off and become the healthiest people we can be.

So, welcome to all who realize that losing and maintaining a weight loss is a lifestyle change. And who want support as we all learn the skills we need to successfully make the changes that will allow us to reach our goals.

Happy turtlin', everyone!

Lin

Hi, Turtles,

Veep, I'm glad my rambling thoughts were of some help. I hope the protein thing helps. I also agree with those great folks in the chat room that reminded you that sometimes thirst masquerades as hunger. I'm glad you're going to discuss this with your doctor. I know what you mean about forgetting about how easy the program is. I've noticed that people often seem to make simple things complicated. My dh is always complaining about how his managers do that, with the result that nothing gets done! I'm sure you'll get back to fitting in those comfy clothes and be able to maintain a reasonable weight. It's just going to take figuring out what adjustments you need to make now that your life has changed due to your health issues. Congrats on having a better Saturday!

Lauren, I'm so glad that your vacation was wonderful. My dh and kids and I all agree that we need a real vacation. Not happening in the forseeable future, but I'm hoping to get enough money together for another day trip to Monterey or to the Bay Area. You and your dh are still in my prayers. I hope the news you post is great!

Judy, congrats on staying OP. Those banked points can be such a blessing. They often get me through difficult times. Even if you don't get to 200 as quickly as you'd like, remember that every day that's OP is one more successful day. And by staying OP, even if you lose more slowly, you are learning how to keep it off, once you get to your goal.

I've been doing so-so over the past few days. I've not been counting points or journaling, but I've been making pretty good choices, anyway. Planning my meals. Making soup and salad. Getting in some exercise. I stepped on the scale and I'm pretty much maintaining. Which is a lot considering the way my life is in such an upheaval right now.

I had very bad news about my brother. The doctor said that if he chooses to do nothing, no chemo, etc. he has 6 months left. They're going to do one more test to find out what kind of cancer it is so they can figure out the best course of treatment, but it doesn't look good for the long haul. He's going to be 45 this year. That's even younger than my dad was when he had the same thing happen. Even though we aren't very close, I am a basket case.

I can't focus on doing this whole program right now. But I don't want to just chuck it, either. So, I'm going to really focus on getting the water, vitamins, exercise and making the best food choices that I can. I read an article that said that regular exercise can alleviate depression as well as a lot of medications, so that's going to be my main focus. If I can get past these days when I just cry and get back to being my normal self, I'll be able to get back totally OP. I think this is especially difficult for me because I've never been a weepy female. I've never before just started crying for no reason. (Well, except when in the throes of pregnancy hormones, but I know I'm not pg.) In the meantime, I'm going to do what I can. This thread has been the best support I've had. I really believe that if it hadn't been for all of the wonderful ladies, and a gent or two, who have posted over the years, I would have continued my yo-yo habits instead of managing to maintain the loss I had. Thank you all for your great support of me and each other.

Happy turtlin'!

Lin

Lin, I'm so sorry about your brother. What kind of cancer is it, do you know? Is it the same one your father had? I can only imagine what your family is experiencing. Now it's our turn to pray for all of you. I know some cancers are quickly fatal if you don't get chemo -- but highly curable if you do. Hopefully that's the kind he has.

About feeling depressed and weepy, you said something interesting -- that you hadn't been like this since you were pregnant. Could you be starting menapause? I know as I'm getting older that my PMS emotions are getting worse, like they were when I was a teenager. I figure it's due to hormonal changes in my body, and I also figure that it's going to make menapause real interesting. Maybe that's part of what's making this recent change in your life so difficult.

DH had his tests today, and the news is good. The doctor doesn't think he has cancer. The only way to know for sure is to do a biopsy, but for various reasons that's not a good option right now. So we're going to have more tests done in four months to see if anything has changed. If it hasn't, then we're probably home free. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers, everyone. I'm not completely relaxed about things at this point, but at least I'm not in panic mode!

The one silver lining to being so upset is that my appetite takes a dive, my metabolism revs up, and I tend to lose weight. I suspect that's part of why I lost weight even over our vacation. Now that this hurdle has passed, I find I want to eat everything in sight! Yikes.

I agree with Lin -- this little discussion group has been a major influence in my managing to keep off almost 60 pounds, even 3 years after beginning this journey. Thank you, everyone.

--Lauren

Should anyone here feel the need for more support, I've found two more forums for people who lose slowly:

http://pub38.************/fdottisweightlosszonefrm103 is a forum called "Unhurried Success" over at Dotti's Weightloss Zone. It just started up.

http://pub70.************/flightenup78347frm6 is a forum called "The Scenic Route" on a brand new board by Wendie (who started a forum of the same name over at Dotti's; that forum was discontinued).

Neither of these is precisely like the turtles at this point, but that's OK, too. I thought I'd publish the links here just in case 3FC should ever go down, we could rediscover each other there.

--Lauren

Hi, Turtles,

Lauren, I'm so glad your news is good! I'll keep you and your dh in my prayers that things are still good, even better in four months.

OTOH--I'm sorry that the good news has caused you to want to eat everything in sight! I'm the opposite. When things are awful, I eat. When things are just ordinary or great, I'm fine. That shows you all why I've been thankful just to maintain my weight over the past four months, after I lost the 12 or so pounds at the beginning of the year.

I don't know what kind of cancer my brother has. My mom hasn't called with the results of the biopsy on the tumor in his lung. He also has one in his brain and it's the fact that it's already spread so much that has them making dire predictions.

It's possible that I could be starting menopause, but it's more likely perimenopause. My periods are very normal and I know that I'm still ovulating. I'm going to make an appointment this morning for a regular checkup, though, to find out the answer to that question. Also, to see if there is anything they can do about how heavy my periods are. I cannot work or go back to school without doing something about that problem. I'm thinking maybe the pill would be the best solution right now, unless I have fibroids or something else. But I don't have heavy cramping or any weird symptoms, so I don't think it's serious, just annoying.

I'm doing much better today. I do notice that there is a correlation between where I am in my cycle and how well I deal with what happens each day. Still, I don't think hormones are the cause of what I've been going through, emotionally. I think it's just that so much has happened in such a short amount of time and the hormones only exaggerate my reactions, during certain times each month.

And it's not really over, yet. David is ready to move. He has a moving date and all he has left to do is to pack his stuff and get it ready to go. He's excited.

Chris has been talking about art school in San Francisco. They sent him a card about applying to take a couple of classes in their summer program for high school students. The problem is that he has nowhere to live and they don't mention housing. I'm not telling Paul until I get the information, but I'm going to send for the packet and find out if there is housing available and what it costs. They have scholarships and Chris needs to be busy this summer. Plus, it will give him an opportunity to check out the school and see if he really wants to go there or try the other art school in San Francisco.

I'm doing OK, still, with WW. Like I said, I'm not going to just chuck it all because I am having trouble coping with everything in my life. I'm going to do what I can each day. Today, I'm planning to go swimming. It's a beautiful California summer day, perfect for a swim. I'm going to wait until Paul gets home. He's been wanting to go swimming together for a week or so, but TOM got in the way.

Happy turtlin'!

Lin

Hi,

I am really in shock and I need your prayers and support even more right now. Paul just walked in the door, and it's only noon. He got laid off, along with a ton of other people. This came out of the blue with no warning. We have some severance pay to keep us going for a while, but it takes so long to find a job these days, especially in this current market. I don't know how much more bad news I can take. Thanks for cyberlistening!

Happy turtlin'!

Lin

Oh, Lin. I'm so sorry. The cliche "When it rains it pours" leaps to mind, although in your case I'd call it more of a tidal wave. You must both be in complete shock. I wish I could help. I will certainly pray for you and your family.

I hope this layoff turns out to be the blessing in disguise, the turning point that leads you all to a better place in every way, even if you have to go through a difficult time initially. I know many people for whom this has been the case -- in fact, most people I know who've been laid off have eventually been glad. Hard to believe right now, I know.

Please let me know what kind of work Paul will be looking for, and I'll keep my eyes open. You know about the job boards, right? There are a bunch of them, especially for people with technical backgrounds.

In the meantime, I know you've mentioned your faith in passing, so you know that God loves you more than you can imagine and will never let you drown. Whatever comes, he will be there with you.

Keep in touch and let us know how you're doing -- don't EVER worry about being negative here or some such hooey. We care about you, and we're here for you.

--Lauren

Lauren,
I'm glad of the news about your dh and thanks for the sites for other slow turtles. I was thinking the same thing--I'd miss us all so much if we went off line.
Lin,
I don't know where to begin. I am so sorry for all your horrible news. I am praying for your brother that wise doctors can find a treatment to help him. I am praying for your children that they find their way. I am praying for you and your dh with this current layoff. When I listen to the news and I see layoffs just to keep fat cats happy with the profits a company makes with no regard to the workers who are breaking their backs to make the profits, I wonder where America is going. Many of us work so hard for so many hours and are still in danger of being let go for no reason beyond our salaries and their cost to the company.
Lin--I am speechless. I'll let Lauren be my guide and let you know that God enfolds and embraces you. Whatever you can do with food right now is fine, keep your head as clear as you can, put yourself in God's hands and pray for the best. I am here with huge hugs--I can really hug great--and please keep writing so we know you're okay.
Love ya'
Judy

234/206/thinner

Hello dear Turtles,

Please excuse my slowness in getting to know each of you individually. I read down the postings and then realize that i don't know who said what...who is grappling with what...etc. I hope in time to be able to offer individualized support as each of you so lovingly do!

One thing I couldn't miss is that Lin is going through terrific trials right now. Keep in mind that desparate times call for desparate measures and be AS KIND TO YOURSELF as you can be! Get spiritual, social and medical support. You are already doing all of those things. Sounds like you are also being very practical and loving to yourself in the way you are handling WW right now...

I'm doing OK. I did see my doctor and he said the wt gain is due to slowing metabolism by the med. Eat less, move more. Sound familiar? So OP is my best course of action. Surprised???

Everyone take care,
Vee

Hi, Turtles,

Thank you so much for all of your kind, and beneficial words. I'm trying very hard to hang onto my faith. God has always been there for us. I know that God doesn't give us more than we can handle, but I'm being stretched to my limit. My family needs me to hold on, but I'm not sure how to do that. I thank each of you who are religious for your prayers and those who are not, thanks for your good thoughts. I believe that every bit of positive energy that comes my way helps in some way or another.

This is his fourth layoff since a major Silicon Valley comapany eliminated his job classification one month prior to his 20 year anniversary with the firm. And he's not alone. The people he worked with were discussing how many times they each had been laid off. It's the pits.

Lauren, I've had people tell me that their layoff turned out to be a good thing, and each time Paul has been laid off it has resulted in something better in some way or another, training in a different area, being promoted to supervisory positions, etc. Paul is a lead senior electronic technician. He has experience in a variety of types of technical work, but it's almost all hardware. He's found about 150 potential jobs on one of the boards and hasn't checked the others, yet.

I worry most about his ability to find work at the senior level and at the pay he needs just to stay even. In the hardware fields, companies are more and more looking for younger people with just enough experience that they can do the job, but not so much that they won't work cheap. By cheap I mean $12-15.00/hour. Which they know is a ridiculous pay level for someone with Paul's experience, so they tell him they "can't afford him."

I'm going to have to try to find any kind of work here in Salinas to help keep us from being forced to move from this apartment. Our severance pay, plus unemployment will only keep us going for a couple of months. And we have no savings, since we had to use it for this forced move. The last time Paul was laid off, it took four months for him to find a job and we cannot hold out that long, or longer, since there is a little recession going on in Silicon Valley right now. A lot of people are looking for work. So, pray that I find something quickly so I can help keep us going long enough for Paul to find a job. I'm not going to be too picky, since this is an emergency situation.

Veep, I'm so glad you talked with your doctor. Slowing metabolism sounds like a lot more moving is in order. You may find that exercise is the key to getting back in control. Plus, a bit more exercise may allow you to continue to eat enough points to be satisfied with your overall diet. Hang in there. You will manage to figure out what your body needs now that you're on this medication. One suggestion I have with regard to food--add more fiber. You get a lot of fullness for few points. But do it gradually and drink more water.

Judy, your comments about corporate American's handling of the work force are very appropos. Especially since, in the high tech fields, at least, most people are hired "at will". Which means that you or they can terminate the "relationship", as they call it, without notice. It's more of a problem if you work in manufacturing because current corporate strategy is to contract as much of that work overseas as possible, due to cheap labor. Labor is a liability and that's why layoffs increase profits. But you have to lay off the right people. Engineers are considered assets because they design patentable stuff. That's why they get whatever they want in salaries and perks and rarely get layoff notices.

I'm also asking you to pray for one more thing. That I can manage to at least maintain my weight, right now. I don't want to come out of this trial with more pounds to deal with. I'm making an effort to get some exercise and to make healthy food choices. That's the best I can manage right now. Thanks! You are so great, all of you.

Well, that's about it for now. Thank you all again for your cyber hugs, prayers, and good thoughts.

Happy turtlin'!

Lin

Lin, am also praying re: food issues. I figured that would be high on the list.

Not sure what kind of salary Paul is looking for, but I just did a quick check on www.engineerjobs.com, and there are a bunch of electronic engineer jobs in Michigan, only some of which so far require a college degree (some say it would be nice but experience is more important); salaries look to be running around $50K, and that's in inexpensive areas like Grand Rapids, Michigan. You could buy a decent house on that in Grand Rapids, even with no income from you. http://engineerjobs.com/jobs/michiga...apids8533.html (That's the interior frame; the main site is www.engineerjobs.com )

I know you'd rather stay in your area, and I have no idea what Paul's skills are, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to mention it.

You've probably already seen this site -- http://www.homefair.com/homefair/cmr/salcalc.html -- it compares what your salary would be worth in different cities and states. For example, if Paul found a job earning $50K in Grand Rapids, MI, what would that compare to in terms of cost of living in Salinas? (Turns out there's not a huge difference; he'd need to earn about $57K in Salinas to achieve the same standard of living. Houses in Salinas must be relatively cheap. I compared Grand Rapids to San Francisco just for grins -- you'd need to earn almost twice that much to achieve comparable living standards in SF! Whew.)

Veep, now you've got your confirmation. It must be small comfort! Good for you for just starting in and doing the right thing for yourself, even when it pinches.

--Lauren

Hello all.....

Been awhile since I posted on here.... I have been on WW for over a year and have only lost 25 pounds. I know that is a lot of weight but I thought I would be thinner by now... A lot of the people that are in my group have hit their goal in a year. Lately I feel like such a failure and lost that drive to lose weight, been cheating a lot lately. I am 25yo and feel like a huge big butt pig. Where did that motivation go?? Please help..... You guys seem like you know what your doing......


Merri
236/209/130

Hi, Merri, and welcome back. Great to see you here. Congratulations on losing 25 pounds! That's a fantastic pace for long-term weight loss. That's the mark of someone who's doing the hard work and learning as she goes

I'm sure you know all this, but sometimes it bears repeating:

-- The worst thing we can do on this journey is compare ourselves to others. I know it's hard. But you're unique, and your journey is your own -- nobody else's.

-- Fast weight loss looks like the holy grail, but it almost always isn't. I've lost 100 pounds in a year before. And -- surprise, surprise -- I didn't learn the lessons I needed in order to keep it off. This time, I'm going slow, and it's working -- three years after I started, I'm nearly 60 pounds less than I was. Slow loss is easier on your body and helps you take the time to learn what you need to learn in order to make this loss PERMANENT. And that's the bottom line -- what do you want to weigh in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? What good is it if we lose all our weight in time to be skinny this summer, if we're going to balloon right back up to our old weight by next summer?

-- Write out a list right now, noting all the things that have improved since you lost 25 pounds. Do you have more energy? Are you wearing a smaller clothing size? Do you fit better into seats? Can you walk farther without getting breathless? Do you feel better about yourself? This list can help you do a couple of things -- first, recognize that you're making changes that are wonderful for yourself. And second, keep you from falling into self pity and self loathing, which I think you're starting to fall into. Allowing those emotions to overcome you will cause you to self destruct, and who needs that? Stop and turn around NOW. You're worth it.

--If you haven't read it yet, pick up a copy of "Thin for Life" (don't recall the author). It's a great book that focuses just on people who have lost weight AND kept it off for three or more years. It's a great reality check. Each person has followed his or her own journey toward permanent weight loss, and most of them took several different efforts to get there. It's a wonderful book.

--Are you exercising? Instead of focusing heavily on the scale (which I believe WW promotes, unfortunately) or even on the mirror, focus on how your body feels and how your clothes feel. Are you stronger? Growing in physical confidence? Exercise can do that for you.

--Finally, start talking nicely to yourself. Ban all thoughts about being a pig, or whatever. Don't indulge those kinds of thoughts. What's the point? Talk to yourself as if you were a good friend. Would you call a friend a pig? This may sound really weird, but try standing in front of a mirror and saying, "You're beautiful, sweetheart, and you can do this." It sounds like you need to make some peace with yourself. Try a little kindness.

Welcome, again. Let us know how it goes.

--Lauren

Hi, Turtles,

We wordy turtles often post long messages. But they're usually great. I hope this one is helpful.

Welcome back, Merri. It's always great to hear from folks who don't post as often. And congrats on the 25 pounds.

I'm with Lauren. Her advice is right on the mark. One small addition--ban the word "only", as in "only lost x # of pounds". That word minimizes your successes and causes you to think you're not doing well enough. Which is total nonsense. Every pound, every inch, every dress size, every glass of water you drink, every time you write down your points and food, every exercise or activity session (I found out that I burn about 6 points doing my grocery shopping when my pantry is empty because my grocery stores are huge and I walk the whole store.) everything you do to get to your goal is a success worthy of celebration.

FYI--"Thin for Life" is written by Anne Fletcher. I highly recommend it, also. It's on my rereading list. I need the boost right now.

A bit of my story that might be helpful to you. The last time I started WW was when I sent for the At Home kit in 1997. I lost 50 pounds. Then we had some of the kind of major stresses that we're facing now. (Paul's first layoff after almost 20 years with the same company.) And I decided to work on maintaining that loss. I gained some back, but a lot less than I had during past efforts at losing weight. This year I recommitted to WW and lost 12 pounds at the beginning of the year. I've kept it off, too. My pattern has been to lose for a while, then stay the same. So, I decided to go with that flow and choose to lose that way. My goal was to lose in 20 pound increments, but right now I'll settle for maintaining until my life settles back down again.

My point is that the generally accepted pattern in our culture is to lose all the weight in one race to the finish. Then they've finished their "diet". For most people, that seems to mean going back to eating whatever they want again, eating all that stuff they were depriving themselves of in order to lose the weight. We've been taught that we have to punish ourselves for allowing ourselves to get fat by depriving ourselves of what we love so we can become acceptable again. Then when we're thin, we can stop punishing ourselves. Thus, the birth of the yo-yo syndrome. To compound the problem, many people stop exercising when they reach goal, too. They didn't want to exercise in the first place. They only did it to get the pounds off. Since exercise feels like punishment to a lot of people, they figure they can stop that as well as stop depriving themselves of food they like.

What all of us have learned is that the generally accepted pattern doesn't work, long term. So, we decided to try another path. We stopped depriving and punishing ourselves. We continue to eat what we like, but we're fitting it into a healthy lifestyle. A lifestyle isn't a race. It's a journey. Since there is no end to the journey, it's easier to keep going. We figure that whenever we get to goal, we'll keep doing what we were, but make adjustments to reflect our desire to maintain rather than lose weight. That's no different from making adjustments along the way to break a plateau or reflect more current nutritional and exercise research to keep ourselves as healthy as we can be.

This results in much slower weight losses, but most of us have kept off at least some of the weight we've needed to lose for years. It will take a while for us to get to our weight goals, but it took us a lot longer to put the weight on. After all, most of us started with over 100 pounds to lose. And I'm sure our doctors would agree that any weight loss we maintain is an improvement in our health, which for most of us is our main focus.

Lauren, thank you for the helpful web sites. We've checked out the salary comparisons, too. San Jose is about as expensive as SF, which is why we now live in Salinas. I told Paul about the information in Michigan, but he has two objections. First, unless he cannot find work at all, he doesn't want to move anywhere until Chris is graduated. It's really hard to get all the credits a kid needs when you move during the last couple of years of high school. The other reason is that he HATES cold weather. He loved Arizona when he was in the Air Force, but hoped never to see Illinois again. So, when we check out other states, we tend to look in the warmer climes.

Some good news/bad news. The good news, Adecco is sending my resume for an admin job that may turn into a full-time regular position. The pay is pretty good, too. The bad news is that it's in San Jose and I don't know what I'm going to do about transportation until Paul gets work. We'll work that out, though. I'm thinking that maybe Paul can drive me to Gilroy and I can take public transportation from there. I can't do long distance driving because of health issues. So, when we were commuting together, it worked out fine. Anyway, pray that I get the interview and that it goes well. I probably won't hear anything until Tuesday. It's working for a man in sales, so he wanted someone with some sales in their background. It sounds like a job I could be content with, even if it's not my first choice of work. The extra money will keep us going for a while, but it's not enough to support the family long term.

Anyway, things are not quite as horrible and if I don't get this job, I'm going to get a bit more agressive about pushing Adecco to look a little harder. I've checked the job market here over and over and it's absolutely dead. There was one interesting possibility as an editor in a publishing company, but it wasn't in Salinas. It was in one of the nearby towns, but not on the bus route.

This is long enough. Happy turtlin'!

Lin

Sounds good, Lin. I'll also be getting some resumes out next week -- there are more big-time rumors of upcoming layoffs at my company. They're starting to ask people if they would be willing to travel 100 percent of the time for their job. If the answer is no, guess what your chances are for a future here? I'm certainly not willing to travel 100 percent of the time. There's a great recipe for disaster for my marriage (not to mention my psyche). So ... back into the job market.

About warmer climates ... does your husband like humidity? Places like South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi are *very* cheap to live in. The South generally is much cheaper than anywhere else in the country. But there is a lot of humidity. We lived in southern Virginia when I was a kid; my folks currently live in North Carolina, and whew, does it get hot down there. But you wouldn't believe how much house you can get for not much money in many areas. Dunno about Arizona and New Mexico ... how about Oklahoma or Texas? OK, I'll shut up now. :-)

Your points about slow weight loss are great, Lin. I felt encouraged just reading them. They reminded me all over again why I'm doing this and made me feel better about losing slowly. A real keeper.

--Lauren