I'm not sure where to go from here. I could use some ideas, advice???

I've mentioned in the past dad is nutty. Probably some kind of narcissistic personality disorder, but not sure. At first glance, it also some kind of fear of leaving the house, but a closer look and he does leave, if the trip serves him. Not for anything not for him. Never goes to bday parties, wedding, anything celebrating someone else.

Anyway, since my parents divorced when I was like 12, I either had to go to his house, or I didn't see him. He rarely called. When he did talks were always short. Even when I moved out on my own at 19, he rarely visited, maybe once a year, if that, and only if there was a reason, or if he was "in the area", mind you I've lived with in 20min or less my whole life. In the area meant on my block. He missed some pretty big things in my life. After I had kids (almost 8 years ago) I thought he'd change. (Cause I'm stupid...)


So here I am, with 3 little ones and a 4th due soon. My dad has come by maybe 5-10x in the past 8 years. For 5 of those years I lived a 5 minute drive away. He always wants me to go to his house. He will not go out with us. Its not like we can come over and go to the park or mall or out to lunch. NEVER. Yes I realize something is quite wrong there.

He has missed nearly all my kids bday parties, the ones he has gone to, he shows up late, really late, like near the end, says hi, and leaves early. We're talking about 15 min stays for the 1-2 he's shown up at. (No I was not given bday parties as a kid) He misses nearly all their events, soccer games (he went to one. ONE over the years. Again showed up late, left early. My son never even knew he was there). Never saw my son in karate. He's been in it for about 5 years, 2x a week all year plus tournaments. He did not come to the hospital to see 2 of my 3 kids. He is basically absent physically.

He will call 1-2x a week, and start each conversation with a 2 min time limit. He will not talk to the kids. He will not talk about anything "real" with me. Just hi hope all is well. Complain a bit about not feeling good, BUT I cannot comment on that. He confronted me about 6 months ago (via phone) that he doesn't want my opinion or advice. (So he says, my back hurts, I can only say "oh poor you!" I cannot give any other comment, and I'm a nurse remember...)


I used to go over his house all the time. But in the 8 years I've had kids, its gotten harder the more kids I have and boring for the kids... there is one small box of toys I bought for his house. I also supplied the booster seat for the kids. I don't mind, supplying it, but he threw it away. Said it was taking up too much space. To me that's a pretty clear message. I found out because I went with the kids (little one was like a year) and we were supposed to have lunch there (that I buy) and I asked for the seat and he was like oh yeah we threw it out. I actually don't know when it was thrown away exactly. I assume it was before I had my 3rd....When I told him he could have told me it was in the way, I would have taken it home, he freaked out screaming for me to get over it.

Their house is not baby proof, which I get. They don't have kids. Glass statues, open outlets and a nice flat screen right where baby runs up to poke and hit it. (He's 18 mons). Each of my boys went through the age where they just needed a more baby friendly environment. To me the solution would be either dad comes here, or we meet somewhere like a park. I am not asking him to over haul the house since they don't have kids. Last time I went was the week after Christmas, and I run crazy because the baby is constantly touching, grabbing pulling and is going to break something! Its like a bull in a china shop. The older boys are fine, only they are always bored to tears. They lay on the floor with the same toys, and zone out, so dad sticks them in front of the tv until it time to leave. Its really sad. Dad won't even go outside with them in his own yard. They are house prisoners. And yes, this was my childhood, and people wonder why I am so dysfunctional. Though I have been working on this privately and in therapy for many years, getting closer to normal.

If you talk to dad about it, he THINKS the kids love him and their house...he thinks they have some special bond, even though he does NOTHING with them but sit and stare at each other once every few months. Over Thanksgiving my 4 year old was doing a thankful project at this play group we go to and one of the ladies was asking him who he is thankful for, and he said hubby, me, big bro, little bro...and the lady asked if he had a grandma or grandpa and he said no! He forgot grandpa and grandma existed!! (I have a step mom that doesn't get involved)


So here's the issue. I'm tired of his 2 minute phone calls. I've told him this and he gets nasty about it. Well I tell him I want to talk to him longer and it hurts and blah blah. And again last week he called, said he only had a minute to talk. So I said, call me back when its more convenient for you and we can talk. I'd like to talk longer with you. And he freaked out that he's not a phone person, and he's not changing for anyone. (He's a real ******* when he is challenged in any way). He said he is walking on eggshells with everything he does. I asked him, what do you do? You do nothing. You are not around, you won't talk on the phone...our family has more of a relationship with our mailman! (We do, he's a nice guy, we chat with him, he talks with the kids when he's here) But he couldn't answer my question, he just raged.


So he was screaming he's not changing for anyone. And hung up. He's done this in the past, only now I feel...done. He called back twice the past week. I didn't answer. Because what he does is call back to talk about his feelings and make more excuses. He next move, is he writes a letter (all about his feelings and what he has to say) and in the past I don't open it, I just fold up the whole envelope, stick it in another one and mail it back. He's told me afterwards that the letters are his favorite way of communicating because he can say everything he needs to say!! I've told him, if he wants to talk, that will involve him listening to me and acknowledging the issues, not him having a monologue, and that's its not all about him. It doesn't mean he has to change but he doesn't get to make it sound like I am demanding too much. I've figured out at this point that I am not asking too much of a parent (if a friend were treating me that way I'd stop entertaining the friendship)...And he's hung up on that his effort (or lack of) is normal and I'm too demanding...


Issue is I'm not trying to cut him out. It just there's nothing there. I'm sick of picking up the phone for his 2 min phone calls. And we don't see each other at all, so its like I'm cutting him off but I'm not.

I should mention my brother doesn't talk to him. My dad thinks he was a great dad and doesn't get why brother won't talk to him.


I have reached out to my family (my aunts which are his sisters) and let them know I don't want involvement, not asking to take sides, but I don't want them to get the wrong idea. Many years ago there was an issue, turned out dad lied to my family about it! Well he thinks he is always the victim and the greatest dad, and I'm just ungrateful and that's how he tells it...That was since cleared up, but I explained that I don't want that to happen again. That I am trying etc. So far they have been very supportive, that they would never abandon me, they love me, they know dad has issues...


Not sure where to go from here. I probably need to pick up the phone at some point when he calls, since we haven't talked since he hung up on me, but I keep thinking "he's not a phone person". And I've been down this road 1000 times with him. He only calls to talk about his feelings and what I did to cause it. I don't want to hear it anymore. I want to tell him I am not cutting him out, but he needs to make some effort somewhere. I'd take longer phone calls! So easy! Its weird but he's got so little presence in our lives that not taking his 2 minute phone calls 2x a week is the same as cutting him off!

I don't know what to do....

Phew. That was a long post!

I don't have any advice for you but I can say I relate to you and it sucks. My dad passed away almost a year ago and it's been awful without him in many ways. But in some ways, it got easier.

My dad was always the "dad" in our relationship, aka the boss. Everything was on his terms, if he was in the mood to chat, see us, etc. We had no say except to "rebel" against his wishes. We also had no say in his medical issues as we would always be kids in his eyes. My sister is a nurse like you and he still wouldn't take her professional advice as he was the dad, he knew better. OK dad.

My dad never came to parties, weddings (I didn't know if he was even coming to mine up until the rehearsal, but he did), funerals, etc. But if he needed something or wanted something, he'd be ready with bells on for us. (For example, I was fronting the $$ for a used car for him and he wanted to spend the day with me going from lot to lot to find one. He'd never spend a day with me for something I wanted to do.)

We weren't on speaking terms when he died but that was just par for our relationship. It's a long story but he called me selfish for not driving an hour to his house to take him to an appointment 2 minutes away and then drive myself home 90 minutes in rush hour traffic. He could take the elderly ride for free but said it took too long, it was easier for me to be the chauffeur. He couldn't comprehend my part in this, just wanted the pick up and drop off on HIS terms. I didn't say no, I just asked if he could reschedule and he flipped out. That's the last text I have on my phone from him and it was 6 months before he died.

I told my DH just last night (after he got a guilt trip call from his parents) that I'm so glad I never have to deal with my dad again in that capacity. I mean, I miss him so much. You only get one dad in this life good or bad. But I never have to cry, rearrange my schedule, get a lecture, etc. from him ever again. Now I talk to him whenever I want, on my terms, on my subjects.

I'm sorry I turned my reply into my own rant. I just saw so much of me and my dad in your post. And if you haven't lived it, you don't understand.

Why don't you try to develop a relationship on terms you're both comfortable with, i.e. written? Build a penpal relationship with him, understand his needs, find a middle ground to meet on.

Look, GG, your parents both have issues, you've been forthright about that. The simple fact is when people have mental/behavioral health issues you have only two choices, accept them for who they are, knowing there's always going to be a bit of one-sidedness to the relationship, or move on and cut them off.

He said he likes to communicate by letters, sounds like he may be asking for you to connect with him the way he's best able to reciprocate *shrug*

Look, it's a pain, but clearly he's got issues. He is who he is. Meet him in the middle or cut him loose, expecting him to change to fit your needs is just as selfish as he appears to be.

Don't feel like you turned it into your rant! You are right, unless someone has lived it they don't get it. Many people give their opinion while imagining their own (normal) parents. And that doesn't work. They can't comprehend what it is like, day after day, year after year. Being the child of someone that is a child themselves (emotionally and mentally) Demanding and selfish like a toddler...its draining.

My way or no way, sounds like that was your dad to. 100% effort has to be given from the other person. But dad gives nothing. No time, no energy (forget actually gifts, I mean I don't want that stuff anyway, but he doesn't spend a dime on me of the kids). But like you, I have given to him...hubby has gone out of his way to help him. My dad accepted nearly $2000 from me for a skin cancer surgery then BERATED me for it afterwards that no dad should have to take money from his daughter and it was my fault for offering it!!!! Seriously....

Its weird because I kept thinking he would change, but this time it just dawned on me, he wont. Our lives are open, he is welcome in them, but we are done bending over backwards to run to him.

I can't remember your past posts exactly, so forgive if I'm wrong, but I think in the past you took a similar stance, like you identify more with the mentally ill parent than the child that endured that growing up.

I don't have "needs". When you have parents like I did, you learn you have no needs, no value, no opinion, you don't matter. Only the parent has needs, All I have done is bend and break to fill his needs. He wants to see us, on his terms, on his schedule only. Only what is convenient and ok for him. This might mean him canceling last minute, or saying he will call me the morning of the day he "might" like us to visit and see if "it will work out" meaning if he is up for it or wanting it.

I don't have a need for a grown child in my life. He fills no place. He's not there physically, emotionally, and so leaves no opening if he disappears. The closest he has ever come to addressing any of my needs was before my parents divorced, he worked and kept a roof over our heads.

The idea of writing letters sounds great. Only he does not like reading letters!! Only writing them! He loves himself, he is the center of his universe. I think deep down he wants to want to be a part of our lives, but that's not the case.

It seems you are picturing that I have this need for my dad to do XYZ and to be in my life. No, I am tired of ME doing XYZ to keep us in his life, when really the only person benefiting from it is him. Dad would only be changing to benefit himself and keep contact with me and the grandkids. Not to meet my needs. That ship sailed about 20 years ago. But thanks for the reply anyway.

I could write back a gazillion paragraph reply to everything you wrote. But instead, I'll give you hugs.

You hit the nail on the head. Our dads are toddlers in some ways. It's a weird concept but it's true.

My DH never understood my parents (my mother is a whole other story) but bent over backwards for them. My parents even implied in some roundabout ways that he was too good for me. Um, WHAT? Because he takes care of me and that in turn means he bent over backwards for my family? Like you again, we would help and we'd get blamed for doing too much. Can't win for trying, can't win for not trying.

Like I said, I have no advice as I don't think there is an answer. But I wanted you to know you aren't alone in this at all.

And I guess I started to write a gazillion paragraphs!

I read your other reply and had to comment on this: "He wants to see us, on his terms, on his schedule only. Only what is convenient and ok for him. This might mean him canceling last minute, or saying he will call me the morning of the day he "might" like us to visit and see if "it will work out" meaning if he is up for it or wanting it."


This reminded me of my dad calling me, needing a ride to a doctor's appointment that same day. I rearranged my whole schedule, called my DH asking him to skip an event that was really important to him (sports related, full bar, full dinner, lots of perks and with important people in his company for bonding/schmoozing) so I could get there in time for the appointment. My DH cancelled everything and my dad called as I was pulling out of my garage for the hour ride to cancel, saying he wasn't going to his doctor, blah blah blah. I said "DH cancelled his plans and we rearranged everything for you, I'm coming." He said "Don't, I won't answer the door and I'm not going." I explained my DH did this for him and he said "well, tell him I'm sorry." Whatever dad.

Needless to say I was angry and sad that I asked my DH to compromise his plans. He ended up being able to go to his original plans but I felt so foolish. Why would I do that to my sweet DH who asks for nothing? Because I'm a scared almost 40yo woman who is still trying to please my dad? I can assure you, I never ever asked my DH to do anything like that again. My dad was so rude and selfish to do that. My husband deserves more respect than that. I'm used to it, he's not.

Sorry I barged into your reply to another poster, I just again identified with you.

So I started this yesterday and when I was almost done, my toddler walked up to me, and threw up on me. I just shut my computer mid typing. I came back today to wrap up and post it.


My dad did this one time in a weird way. I posted it here! He kept telling me a song reminded him of me...and here is the man that can't lift a finger to see us, but he went out of his way to down load the song and send it to me. It was about a girl that was all screwed up until she met her husband...Even DH thought it was ridiculous. I'm pretty sure he looks down on women in some ways, and I know he always thinks all the women he's married (2 marriages( and dated were completely screwed up. I think he sees him self as this amazing catch that helps them...

My dad thinks everyone thinks and acts like him at every stage. He thinks people tell the same lies...its creepy really. Like when he was a teen and into his early 20s he was a slacker. He did drugs, didn't go to college, drank a lot, and drove drunk, apparently cheated on my mom according to her, went to lots of drug parties and got in trouble a lot....Even after he and mom had me at 21, that didn't stop him from partying and drinking.

I was never like that. I mean I had fun, but never in trouble, never drank and drove, actually I never got into drinking until later in life, now I enjoy wine. I went to college, I volunteered for the local first aid squad...lol I was a good kid and my friends were not trouble makers. But he would always say he knew how kids my age were and suggested many times I was lying. Even when I got into my 30s, I was in a totally different place than him. Married, 2 kids, career, stable marriage. In his 30s he was living with his mom, working odd jobs, and no license from DWI issues. But he insisted we were the same and that I was making poor choices like he did in his 30s...even though my life was obviously pointing to the fact that this was not the case.

He even commented through my 20s that I would divorce my husband in my 30s because that's when its too hard to stay married....and because he and my mom divorced then. I flat out told him, I'm not him, but he couldn't get it!!

He can't understand anyone that doesn't live just like him. He talks about how the most important thing is family (ironically) and anyone that spends their life pursuing a career or whatever, basically anyone that doesn't get married and have kids like he did, that they are empty and unhappy and don't "get" the real meaning of life. I told him that everyone decides what the meaning of their life is. Personally wanted a family but I know people that wanted to travel, stay single, and they are happy. He insists they are looking to fill a void and there is something wrong with them. If you don't live like dad, you're doing it wrong and there's something missing in your life that you are searching for.

If you have tattoos, you are making up for something. Same with piercings. And a well paying career. If you are a fat woman, you are a slob. Fat guys too, but you have to be much fatter as a guy to be that slob. I found out that he views a gay child as a disappointment to their parents. But wait, if you have gotten caught drinking and driving you are just struggling but are really a good person that deserves compassion. If you mess up like dad, you are a good person that deserves understanding. Not living like dad, you are an idiot, slob, weirdo, whatever....

So basically he cannot think beyond his own life and opinions. Its more than just being judgmental. He cannot grasp that people are not just like him. So if he thinks its normal for a parent to do NOTHING as he does, then anyone that's thinks different is wrong.

Anyway I'm going to wrap this up since I started it yesterday and just want to post it already lol

Honestly, it sounds like you already know what you have to do. And it's a hard thing to do but maybe that's why you're here posting about it. I would cut him loose. He's not adding value to your life or the life of your children, he's only harming you guys. You've already seen that when your brother cut him out, he didn't change, so I hope you know that once you cut him out the same thing will likely happen with you. It will be for good. He won't change or come running after you.

However, from the perspective of your kids, my grandfather was not in my life or my mom's life for a very long time. What she did well was never talk poorly about him to us, just explained the circumstances very honestly without placing blame. It sucked not hearing from him as a kid, but since I didn't really know any better, I wasn't disappointed. Towards the end of his life things changed and he wanted to renew his relationship with my mom and our family, and it was wonderful while it lasted before he passed away unexpectedly. All that to say, I guess, that if you do cut off contact with your father, I hope you won't bad mouth him to your children. Just let him go quietly, and let them make their own decisions about him as they get older. You may change your mind one day, too. Your dad may, too. It's not worth holding onto hope, but it is worth closing the bridge rather than burning it down.

Just my two cents.

My Father lives in the same condo building with me, one floor up, one unit over. I barely see him and he never calls me. We have almost no relationship which is not my doing. I've tried many times. He will have to live with it on his death bed because in the end I will probably be all that he has.. That's all there is to it.

Wow, you really misread/misinterpreted/misunderstood my response.

To start, that really hurt my feelings. I don't identify with your parents, I identify with YOU. I too am the survivor of a really dysfunctional, abusive childhood. So dysfunctional that my symptoms of PTSD started before I was a teen and continue to rule my life every single day.

I will never stop resenting it. And I can NEVER get closure from it.

My father died when I was 17. My mother died when I was 39. My first husband, who did his own share of damage to me, and for good measure screwed up our son, is such a narcissist and sociopath that it's impossible to have a sane conversation with him (in fact our son will not speak to him and probably never will again, so there's another person who isn't getting closure).

It dogged me, why was my life such a crap sandwich. And there was just no way to get an answer. I was so resentful of what I had to bear as a child. I didn't HAVE a childhood, I was expected to act and function like an adult, and that spilled over into school, which was part of what made me the freak of the school. I was the butt of every joke. Tormenting me was a class pass time. I had no friends and eventually stopped attending lunch and spending it in the library just so I could avoid the torture at recess.

I truly hated my childhood.

Moving on.

The point of my post was to say that you need to either accept the fact your father is an utterly self absorbed narcissist, or you need to say "later". He didn't give you the emotional support that you wanted or needed as a child, what miracle do you expect to happen that will make him change now? Your children? He clearly didn't care about his own child, why should he feel any different about his grandchildren?

Neither of my parents ever said "I'm sorry" to me. In fact, the last exchange I had with my father he glared and shook his fist at me, so his feelings about me, someone who just wanted his approval, to just feel like her father cared for her, were pretty clear.

It's taken me a long, long time to get to the point where I don't feel physical rage when I think back on my childhood. So many years wasted wanting answers that I would never receive. So much frustration that spilled across all areas of my life. So much wasted energy letting the past live in the present in my mind when what I really needed was to just do what my current husband has been telling me to do for years, consider the source and let it go. The saying "don't let negative and toxic people rent space in your head" is apropos. But it took me a lot of years, like 40, to really get it and actually put theory into practice. I would save anyone having to fight a battle that long, but we can only do what we're ready to do.

Anyway, I said my peace and with that I'll be withdrawing from this thread and refrain from commenting in any of your threads that are parental themed in the future. I do hope you find your way to your own peace

ReNewMe, First let me say I am sorry. I am sorry that instead of saying what upset me about you first response, I just answered the way I did. For what its worth, both the problems at home and at school I deal with too. I am not saying I know what you went through. I am saying I did not escape home to a welcoming school life. I was bullied severely as well. No place felt safe or loving. Not having closure is something I haven't figured out how to deal with. I stopped talking to my mother about 8 years ago, and she still contacts me from time to time and maintains she is the most wonderful mother and I am the problem, and I should come apologize to her...

When you said that asking him to change would be selfish...I will not believe anymore that I am selfish. My dad has told me I am selfish, the last time being when I was home with hyperemesis with my last pregnancy, basically so sick that I could not move from the couch without vomiting. I lost about 20 lbs in about 5 weeks and was in the hospital once for fluids. He was made I would not come to his house for Christmas...I was sick, BUT he was sicker as always, and I was selfish for not going there...

I will not believe anymore that wanting a parent (or anyone) that claims to want to be in my life to put forth a bit of effort makes me selfish. No, wanting him to change doesn't make me selfish...crazy, and thick headed for not getting he will never change, yes I agree on that. But no, not selfish. My dad would love for everyone to believe that any expectation of him from another person is selfish. Anything that isn't all about him, or his way, automatically makes someone else selfish.

I should have said that from the beginning. The word was very triggering for me. I wish I had a better excuse for not just saying that, but I don't. I'm sorry again. Sorry about my reply. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in this house of mirrors, you know, like I can't tell what is normal, I can't tell what behaviors are ok and what isn't.

GG, your father could have been my mother. I know that's an odd way to put it. My mother was widowed at 43. She had no friends, did not go out anywhere, such as church etc. She came from a big family but had no relationship with any of her siblings. She had no life, but lived through me. She wanted me to spend all my time with her. I could never have friends over, even as a teen. Could not date. When I finally moved out on my own, at 26 years old, she could not accept it. The only communication we had was if I went to see her, or if I called her. She never came to my place or called me. Never. I wrote my phone number in her phone book several times and the next time I went over to her house it would be scratched out. This went on for a few years. When I met DH she never even met him. I could not bring him to her house when I visited. She didn't even want me to mention him. It got so bad that I finally cut off all ties with her, and two years later she passed away. There was no talking to her about it...she was right and I was wrong. I felt horrible guilt about this since then, but felt that I had to break things off for my own sanity.

You are right. People who have normal parents don't understand. Here is my advice to you based on my own experience. IF you can, do whatever it takes to continue to have some type of contact with him, under his terms. I'm saying this so you will not have feelings of guilt after he is gone. I don't know what makes some people be this way. From what I have learned since then, I think my mother was undiagnosed bi-polar.

I don't mean this to sound glib, for lack of a better word, but I have come to realize that many family members would never had been a friend or even someone that I would like to spend a moments time with.

"You can choose your friends, but not your family"

Try not to be hard on yourself, surround yourself with positive people.

I'm sad for each of our inner child that we all had such damaging (for a lack of a better word) relationships with our parents and we are all carrying so much with us even today, years and years later.