In other posts I've mentioned that I go to a daily clubhouse for people like me (with emotional disabilites) to build social and work skills, and be rehabbed to go back into the job market. Lunch is provided, and today I overheard a couple of gentlemen being reminded to let the ladies get theirs first. Now, this doesn't affect me. I can eat my lunch any time, since I bring my own. I don't have to wait until it is served. But as a general principle, "ladies first" irks me. Haven't we been trying to show men for *centuries* that we are just as smart and competent as they are? That we deserve equal rights, equal pay, and equal respect? That we can run countries, serve in the military, drive trucks, do something besides fetch them their slippers when they come home from work? Then why turn right around and demand special consideration on the basis of gender? There are some women who want it both ways. I'm not one of them.

How do the rest of you feel about "ladies first" or other social restrictions based on gender?

I think it is just an old-fashioned way of being polite. I don't see any problem with it. Although, I can see that some might be offended? Sometimes you just have to think about things through the other person's eyes - I am sure whoever said that was trying to be polite, not trying to be demeaning in any way. I doubt most people actually think women need special hand-holding these days. Maybe a better thing they could say would just be "Would you like to go first?" .. rather than placing a gender on it.

I like it when a man offers to let me go first.. even if it is just a wave of their hand gesturing for me to go first. I likes me some politeness!!

I need to clear something up.

I wasn't suggesting that the man who insisted on "ladies first" was being patronizing or demeaning. I'm sure he meant it as a rule of etiquette. It's the rule itself I question, not a man's intentions when he follows what he's been taught to do all his life. Although I don't demand or especially want it, I'm not going to get angry at a man who lets me go ahead of him, holds the door open for me, or whatever. I know he's just trying to be polite.

I believe the hierarchy should be based not on gender but on age and health. Let the elderly and special needs people go first. It's easier for the younger and healthier to wait longer in line, to stand on a crowded bus, etc. I don't think a man should defer to a woman, *just because* she is a woman, but I do think a young man should offer his seat to an older woman. And the same in reverse--a young woman should offer her seat to an older man.

At least that's the way I see it.

I think it's just polite, but I'm not bothered by guys who don't do it (I am bothered by guys who do it for pretty girls and not older/heavier/less attractive girls). Generally for me, these things are more about being curtious than about gender (ie- if someone is behind you when you open a door, hold it for them- especially for elderly or those with children, but even still you don't let go of the door in the face of a young guy)

All of this is true. However, please take into consideration that there are still some religions that must serve the men and children before they are even "allowed" to sit down to there own meal that they have prepared and even still there are usually a couple of women who stand at attention just in case someone needs something. So, next time u here "Ladies first" maybe u should be thankful and not critical.

hmm i think i misunderstood at first- if it was a man saying "ladies first" then i'd just take it as polite- but if someone at your rehab place demanded that a man let the ladies go first- i think that's kinda rude.

Well, it *was* a man. A member of the club, telling other men who were members of the club to let the ladies go first.

Nevertheless, I think we're getting close to being on the same page now. It was never the men I was criticizing. They've been taught "ladies first" all their lives. I have a problem with women who demand special treatment because they're women, while at the same time insisting on equality. We can't have it both ways, IMO. And if it has to be a choice between being equally respected, or being catered to because I'm a woman, I'll take the respect instead.

"Ladies first" seems to be the rule when it's lunchtime at the clubhouse. I don't know who made the rule, but I don't like it. Yes, I realize as I mentioned before that I am not affected by the situation. I bring my own lunch, not knowing day to day what they're going to serve, so that I can stick to plan. Therefore I can eat any time. I don't have to wait for everyone else. So I don't have a dog in that fight, but the incident today got me thinking about the entire practice. In general, not just in this specific case, why "ladies first"? Why *should* women go first, just for being women?

In a similar program, I once saw the director ask the people to let a certain man go first in the lunch line. He was diabetic and his glucose level was starting to drop, and he needed to eat as soon as possible. I think that's perfectly appropriate.

As for the ideal setup, I'd say it should be based on individual need. In that last case, the man who was diabetic needed to eat first, and people gladly let him go ahead. On a bus, the person least able to stand should be given priority seating. Doors should be opened by the first person who got there, and held open for whoever happens to be near. Or for whoever has their arms full; whatever. Hey, I'm all for politeness. I just think it needs to be for everybody to practice, not just for men toward women.

Oh, a couple of things just occurred to me:

Aclai, you're absolutely right. Those men who would extend courtesy to a pretty young girl, but not to an older or heavier or less attractive one, they're just dogs.

And, you can't please everybody. I'm from the South, where I was taught "ma'am" and "sir," and last names instead of first. To me it's politeness. "Yes, ma'am." "Pleased to meet you, Mr. Jones." But there are those who squawk even at that. "How dare you call me ma'am? I'm not that old!" Or, "Mr. Jones is my father. I'm Bob." Or even, "You don't have to give up your seat for me. I may be old, but I'm still strong!" Some might even take those courtesies as an insult.

I expect that kind of respect and treatment from men (though, I'm not rude when it's not done, of course). I think it's a common courtesy that any decent man should extend to a woman. I don't think it shows a lack of respect or appreciation or is an insult to women in any way.

I think men should hold doors, offer their seat and, yes, allow women to go before them (through doors or whatever).

It doesn't mean women are lesser than men. It's a show of respect for women that I very much appreciate (and ALWAYS acknowledge with a friendly gesture in return).

And of course (everyone) doing the same for the elderly, infirm etc should go without saying.

Frankly, it bothers me that it "irks" you when it happens to able-bodied women because I think that's part of the reason some men have stopped extending such courtesies to women. And it makes me very sad.

I'm trying, however, to be understanding of that POV. But really, take it for what it is (a kind gesture, not a slap in the face).

Agreed!

I agree with this as well. What I don't understand is why it would irk you if it's simply done for you as a common courtesy...and not done at the expense of someone more deserving (elderly or sick)??

ETA: Maybe the issue is that we don't agree on this simple thing - men and women AREN'T the same. Men, generally speaking, are bigger and stronger than women. They are built differently than us. We aren't equal in this regard (again, I'm speaking generally). Does this mean we shouldn't get paid the same for doing the same work? No, of course not! (we should get more, if anything! LOL!).

So yeah, hold the door for me, offer your seat to me, shovel my snow for me. I think that's great! If we are doing the same job/work, however, we should be compensated the same. Two separate issues, IMO.

I don't really see a big problem with it. No matter what age a lady is, they should be first, have the door opened for them, etc. Maybe im a little old fashioned. I grew up that way. My DH is that way. I enjoy it, it is nice. I don't get offended if a man doesn't do it tho. It has nothing to do with equal rights, in my opinion.

This is a good topic and I'll be following it. Personally, I see "Ladies First" as a sign of courtesy and respect, particularly as it came as a reminder from a man. These days I see too much decline of all of these small social graces and I think it just adds to a degradation of society as a whole. Our boys were taught at an early age to respect women and their elders. That means "Yes Ma'am", "Please", "Thank You", opening doors and pulling out chairs. My pet peeve is dining in a restaurant with boys/men who do not remove their caps/hats. It probably never occurs to them because they were never taught it. It all seems like such small things, but it adds up to such huge things such as trouble at school with teachers (no respect for elders)and physical/emotional abuse toward women later in life (no respect for women). I see no diminshment of myself as a person when these small courtesies are extended to me and they are always graciously acknowledged.

I'm from Texas, and hate, hate HATE when a teenager calls me ma'am! I'm only 29....not "ma'am" yet!

Also, and maybe this is just a country thing, but in my husband's family, especially at his granny's house, the kids eat first, then the men get their plates. The women don't serve them by any means, but she just believes the men should go first, so we all follow her beliefs when we're there.

The thing that cracks me up is if you go into a restaurant and the waitress calls you things like darling and honey. First time I encountered that I was like what?!

My husband (mid 30s) is a ladies first type of guy. He tries to be polite and considerate and that is part of it for him. He also thinks women are strong and independent. He respects women in business and yes even in business situations, he feels women should come first.

As for me, I really don't care either way. I like to think of others first, no matter what their sex or age.

Hey what's wrong with a little extra niceties for women? We work, we cook, clean, wash clothes, raise the kids (i.e. shape the future on a daily basis). I for one have too much on my mind and am too tired to open the door myself.
Also, remember that the first woman is a man's life is his mother, then his sister, aunts etc and then presumably his wife. Hopefully those women have shown him that we are strong and capable and have earned some special courtesy. Yeah, special. I like being special. Who wants to be commonplace?