I agree with this, too...LOL

And, thank you for reminding me that it's okay to be hungry, and that the pain is not going to kill me.

I guess in a twisted way, for me, the idea that I can soothe over the pain with food is "compassionate" - whereas, allowing myself to feel hunger is forcing myself to feel pain (i.e. bad). I have convoluted things somehow. The fear comes from knowing that I will feel hunger (i.e. pain) over and over again, day after day...and that is what is terrifying.

How did I manage to take 10 steps back?

I am reading a book Diet Survivor's Book by Judith Matz and Ellen Frankel. I'm sure I've read it before, but just found it and decided to read again. I found a statement I thought was interesting. They use the term attuned eating for Intuitive eating. Strange thing is 11 yrs ago when I first married DH, I had never heard of either of these terms but I had decided to learn to tune into my body and I ate only when I was really hungry. "Attuned eating does more than solve your problems with food, it allows you to take back your life".

I thought that I would share the 5 stages of loss and grief as we contemplate the meaning of ending diets and becoming a diet survivor. These are summaries in my own words from Chapter 3 of the book

1. Denial is when we question whether we must truly give up on the idea that diets can make us permanently thin. Although diets fail 95 to 98% of the time leaving a small percentage that work, we have a tendency to hope that just maybe we will fall into that group. They say that dieting is seductive and it is a fantasy that is always dangling in from of us. So we are always looking for that "one" diet that will make us thin denying that diets do not work. So we fall into the trap of another diet and sometimes even try one again that didn't work for us before thinking that maybe we didn't do it right last time until we are finally convinced that diets really do fail. (I have to admit that I have fallen into this category sooo many times.)

2. Anger... This is when we may cry "Why me?" Our anger can be at directed at ourself as we berate our body. We may get angry at others because they seemingly are able to eat whatever they want and be thin, etc. Some times we get angry because people judge us by our size. When we are losing they are always giving their approval, but when we gain, they are silent. (I could have used the silence. I always hated "You have such a pretty face, you would be beautiful if you lost weight).

3. Bargaining. This is where IE makes sense to you, but you decide that you will do one more diet and be stronger and stick with it and lose the weight. Then when you get the weight down where you want it, you will live your life fee of diets. (Guilty of that one too.)

4. Depression. You are being asked to consider living your life without the goal of losing weight and the rewards that come with it that you have focused on when dieting. Sadness sets in as we shift our beliefs of the merits and requisites thinness become a difficult challenge. At this point, it feels like we are being asked to give up on ourselves. However they point out that "...the opposite is true. We are asking you to live an authentic life where your true self, that part of you that has been waiting for permission to start living, can begin breathing again". (I think this is where I am.)

5. Acceptance. This is where we admit that diets do fail and we are not going to diet any more in an effort to be thin. We accept the fact that diet wreak havoc on our bodies and our emotions and we are going to take care of ourselves as best we can and let "our weight settle in its natural range as a function of eating in an attuned manner" and engage in a level of activity that both fits our body and lifestyle. As a diet survivor we accept ourselves and others in their wholeness. This will enable us to live a life freedom and authenticity. (I look forward to getting to this stage and staying here. I've had short spurts of this, but never for long. I do so want to be at this stage for good.)

Did IE eating what I really wanted when I wanted and ate only as much as it took to satisfy me while counting calories and I ended my day eating 1220 calories for the day. I didn't set a goal of calories, just counted calories in the food that I ate. I am amazed and thrilled. I cancelled my WW online membership and it will end on March 27th. I think this IE with calorie counting will work out better because I was eating more than the points than allowed and feeling guilty. So I was shocked to find that I was actually only eating around 1200 calories even when eating over my daily points. Even my doctor set my calories at 1600 daily. I think just eating what I want when hungry and eating till satisfied even while counting the calories is the best way for me.
So no more diets or diet rules for me. Going to spend time learning to get in tune with my hunger and honor it.

I see what you mean. I don't know if I've necessarily hit rock bottom and can see no other way out, I just know instinctively that I cannot tether myself to a diet. It causes me to binge. I may binge anyway on IE but I'm not sure that bothers me so much. I've been a binger for a very long time and I don't expect to be perfect over night.

I think the problem people have with IE is that they don't really believe that diets don't work. In fact I think they believe that they fail the diet, it's not the diet's fault, it's "my" fault for not successfully following the diet. We're used to so much self blame that it's no wonder people get caught up in the vicious cycle of dieting.

Someone on another thread made a really brilliant comparison between eating and credit cards. Gosh I'll have to find her and give her credit but basically she was saying that if she takes in more than her body needs then she stores it and accrues "debt" much like when you incur debt on a credit card but don't have the funds to pay for it at the end of the month. I quite like that comparison, it helps me when I'm trying to decipher the moment of fullness as I eat.

Someone else here also compared hunger to a little dog nipping at your pant leg. I try to think of my hunger as that and try to figure out if it's real hunger or something I can ignore. Lots of good stuff learned here.

Trish, Thank you for that summary. I can relate to many points there.

Wannabeskinny, I think you have a lot of insight into the process of IE. I will tell you that for me, each day brings some new "ah-ha" moment for me, even after practicing IE for almost a year (sometimes successfully, sometimes not).

Each day I find myself more and more accepting of my body as it is right now. That's a hard thing to embrace but I'm getting there, slowly but surely. Buying new clothes in my current size definitely helped me in this process, but now when I see myself in the mirror I am not nearly as critical as I once was. I still have a ways to go in this regard, but it gets easier every day. I think this is a key component to IE, although I fought against it for a long time. Then I finally realized (ah-ha!) by not being accepting of myself as I currently am that I was still in a diet frame of mind. If I'm not happy with my body, I am going to continually feel that I must do something to change it.

I have lots of friends who are overweight; I don't give their weight a second thought. They are my friends; they are funny, gracious, and beautiful people. If I don't give a fig about what they weigh, why can't I afford myself the same courtesy? When I finally thought about it in this way, I began to realize that they don't give a fig about MY weight either! Looking back on the last time I lost a significant amount of weight (in 2010) no one ever mentioned it! Can you believe that? I lost about 30 lbs and NOT A SINGLE PERSON NOTICED IT. Or if they did, they didn't say squat.

My husband & daughter knew I was on a diet and both of them did tell me I "looked great" and encouraged me. But other than that - nada. That tells me that my weight doesn't change the way anyone thinks about me. That's an important fact that I completely overlooked.

I shared this link to this article on IF thread but because of some of the things she says that relates so much to how IE works, I thought I would share the link here as well.

http://www.livestrong.com/blog/inter..._campaign=0205

I dropped down 2.4 lbs just eating IE. I know that will probably be rare. Actually it really makes the ticker weight loss correct so it really wasn't any lbs lost. However this has taught me a very important lesson about IE. I was eating the "healthy/good" foods that a good "diet" says I should eat and I was well within my calorie/points count, but it wasn't the foods that my body needed to function properly. Which confirms what the book Diet Survivor says about eating attuned/intuitively to your body signals.

They say that our body is smart enough to tell us the food that it needs for us to eat so that it gets the nutrition that it needs to function as it should. Today, I believe this more than ever. Lord help me, I hope I finally have it in my head so that I will NEVER be tricked or tempted to ever do another diet. Because today I realized that my body has been telling me how to reverse diabetes. I have read that by eating whole grains that it will help to get insulin in control. Guess what my body is always calling for which some diets now a days says to eat either none or very little of? That's right grains. To me this is proof positive that the body will tell us what it needs.

Have a great IE day. I am.

More sharing from Diet Survivor's Handbook from Chapter 5.

This part answers the question of the difference between Stomach Hunger and Mouth Hunger.

"Stomach Hunger refers to physiological-based eating. This term reinforces the idea that the cue to eat originates in your stomach. Each time you experience physical hunger, play it up by reminding yourself that it is wonderful that you are hungry--you get to eat!

"In fact, for a diet survivor, stomach hunger indicates not only that you get to eat, but that you must eat. This attitude counteracts some of the damage done to you by dieting. If you are like many dieters, there were times you felt very hungry but ignored these signals so that you would eat less. This behavior made you feel virtuous, in control--and physically uncomfortable. Although this is normal for a dieter, it makes no sense!

The concept of stomach hunger also helps reduce guilt associated with eating. Dieters spend much time feeling bad about decisions to eat, creating anxiety and negative feelings. Instead of experiencing a constant sense of doing something wrong, embrace this consistent, reasonable way to determine when to eat. Tell yourself 'I am hungry. I am supposed to eat!' Over time you'll find that you experience great pleasure and calmness from your ability to identify your hunger and feed yourself."

Mouth hunger refers to psychological-based eating which means reaching for food when you're not physically hungry". (Strange this is I always thought this as just wanting the taste of food which I guess is included but not necessarily so.) "Maybe your eating for emotional reasons or because something looks good. Whatever the source, it has nothing to do with a physical need for food."

I am sharing this part of the chapter in order to help us make the transition.

"It's important to note that early on most of your eating will continue to be from mouth hunger. Remember, if you could simply read about these concepts--eating when you are hungry, eating what you are really hungry for, and stopping when you are full-- and then implement them immediately, you would not be a person struggling with an eating problem. Furthermore, if you try to view this as the correct way to eat and berate your mouth hunger, you'll only feel like you're on another diet; the Stomach Hunger diet!

Trust us, this process takes time and practice, but you will see progress. For now, focus on collecting stomach hunger experiences, one at a time. Diet survivors must let go of the diet mentality of being "good" or "bad" and instead thing about a general move in the direction of stomach hunger. You'll find a strong incentive to move in this direction: you feel better, physically and psychologically.

Each time you reach for food, ask yourself "Is this stomach hunger or mouth hunger?" If the answer is stomach hunger, tell yourself that it means you need to eat, and ask yourself what you are hungry for. If the answer is mouth hunger, don't beat yourself up. Simply ask yourself if you can wait until you feel physical hunger. If you can, fine. If not, eat without a word of reproach to yourself."

Thanks for posting that patty girl I am indeed struggling with that. It's so easy to describe myself as good or bad. You're right, if it was easy them we wouldn't have this problem to begin with. I'm happy with the fact that I am making progress and that will do for now. I am stumbling over identifying hunger and I'm holding off eating so that I can really experience the physical sensation and learn it. It's leading to a little over eating but nothing tragic so far. I'm probably also under eating and stopping before I'm truly sated causing a bit more frequent hunger than I'm comfortable with. I'll chalk it up to being part of the learning process.

Something I've learned about myself over the past few days: I rarely finish 2 eggs, even if they're prepared in my favorite way (benedict!). Genius revelation, I'm used to eating 2-3 eggs at a time.

Good morning, everyone.

I wanted to let everyone know that I won't be on the forum for the remainder of February. There are a couple of reasons - one, I'm preparing for a garage sale which I want to have sometime in March, and it's so easy for me to get distracted by so many other things, including this forum.

The other reason is because I've decided to eliminate - at least temporarily - any talk of or reading about food. That includes IE. I've noticed that if I'm reading about it or discussing it on forums I'm still thinking about food. My goal with IE is to have food be such an insignificant part of my life that the only time I ever think about it is when I'm hungry or planning what I'm going to cook for hubby and me.

I will check back in next month and report if being off the forum was helpful for me or not. In the meantime, I wish all of you the best with your own efforts.

This.

I should check out this book. Sounds good. To me, the "if you can handle it" part is what's important. I find that when I ask myself that question, I almost invariable can handle it and I am empowered by being compassionate towards myself in the process.

The book that set me in motion was Normal Eating for Normal Weight, by Sheryl Canter, which pretty much says the same thing. Basically, you do the best you can. She says, every time you eat from stomach hunger is one step closer, and that you aren't going to be perfectly eating out of stomach hunger from day one. Almost like, each time you wait until you're truly hungry, you get a sort of pat on the back for yourself. The more you do it, the more you like it, and it snowballs, till you eventually realize how much better it feels to be hungry when you eat (but not ravenous). I also find over time, that I naturally don't stuff myself when I do it because I find that while practicing being slightly hungry, I prefer not to have a full stomach. It reinforces itself on both ends, believe it or not.

Another thing she says is that there's never any real benefit from eating when you're not hungry. It seems like eating the candy bar in the moment of anxiety will help to reduce your anxiety, but sitting with the feelings instead is much more productive and you learn more about yourself and feel better afterward. So, every time you feel so compelled, it helps to remember that there's an alternative, and that's to be present with the pain you're trying to avoid. As with fear of hunger, fear of emotional pain when faced gets better with time and actually turns around into something of a blessing, which is connection.

For me, though, even as I say all this, if there's too much emotional pressure, I will find myself not being able to handle it and go back to overeating. So, I still need help in that area.

Maven I feel the same way about the talk about food. I want to get away from thinking about it all the time. I think that is one of the things that drew me to IE. You will be missed and check back when you want. I think I will probably end up coming here less often too not only because I don't want to get locked into thinking of this as a diet, but I am beginning to feel like moving around more.

Mazzy I find it interesting that more and more books on IE or similar are popping up more and more. I think they basically say the same thing. Thanks for sharing as it is helpful.

I have another weight loss. But let me say that I have been fighting to just stay around 232 for a few years now as I just could not seem to get under that number. Again yesterday I ate just what I wanted, enjoyed it and stopped when satisfied. I even broke some "diet" rules. #1. The only veggies I had was on a sandwich that I wanted and I ate it after I got home from church around 9:30 last night even though I ate at Arby's yesterday. Something I would never have done on a "diet". I didn't have breakfast until around 11:30 am because I didn't want it. I ended up eating between 1500 to 1700 calories and I was down another 1.8 lbs. I've always done this. I remember going out to eat and eating more food than usual and come home thinking I had "blown" my "diet" for that day to only find that the next day I would have a good weight loss. I've always heard that some times we don't eat enough, but never put much stock into it because "diets" say you "must" eat less. I've also heard of people recycling their carbs or calories. I've come to believe through IE that our bodies don't function to a "set" number of calories that we should be eating each and every day. I suspect that it functions better when we eat just the amount it tells us that it needs for each day. I have decided to do a scientific experiment of my own to see if this is true, but instead of setting a goal of calories that I will reach for, I am keeping a daily count of Calories used. I write down what I eat, how much I eat and how many calories it was and then total for each day. My hypothesis is to see if our bodies actually live on a set # of points or one amount of calories everyday or if it actually varies from day to day. I will do this the rest of this month and let you know what I learn.

Totally agree with this.

All I have to do is watch my 2-yr old. He scares me sometimes when he goes almost a whole day without eating and then suddenly it's supper time and he devours a whole bowl of pasta with sauce, cheese, etc. And, me, being like every other mama out there, I have to force myself not to ask all the time: are you hungry? do you want to eat something? I'm finally coming to the conclusion that he has a voice now and if he needs to eat, he will definitely tell me. He certainly doesn't hold back with his needs or opinions.

And to watch him flying all over the place like a maniac - you wonder, where in the world does that energy come from? Well, I'll tell you it certainly doesn't come from being weighted down by loads of food he doesn't want.

Good luck Maven we'll miss you.

I know some have been mentioned on this thread, are there any books in particular that people love about IE? Specifically I want to know about hunger, how to address it, something that focuses on hunger.

I overate a bit at lunch yesterday but I found that I wasn't hungry for dinner. I had a few bites of my sandwich but didn't have it in me to finish it. I'm still trying to find my comfort zone of fullness. I think I'm doing an ok job assessing when I'm full but I am thinking I should eat just a little bit more because frequent meals make very uncomfortable and they make me think about food more than I want to. Is it ok to push my fullness a bit so that I don't get hungry quite as quickly?

Wannabeskinny I really don't have a favorite IE book. I am enjoying this Diet Survivor's Handbook. It breaks IE done into 60 lessons, but I am just reading through it right now which is the way it suggests doing at first. I do implement some of the things as I go and I see a lot of things that seems to be helping me. However, I've been working at getting my head around IE for a number of years. I think it is helping me to do that mainly because it has shown me the stages of IE that I've shared with y'all above in previous posts. However, I've been here before where I thought I had it all figured out and would NEVER try another diet only to find myself trying some diet ONE MORE TIME.

I would say do what a lot of us here have done. Some go to the library and get a book to read and if they like it and want it then they purchase it. A much more economical way to go. Some when we hear of a new book we think would help us go to Amazon.com and read reviews etc and some times you can read a few ages before we decide if we want to spend the money on it. There are a lot of good ones out there.

When I share how this is working for me right now, please remember that I've been trying to lose anything for years. I am at the place in IE where I am doing it so well that it is finally working for me. However, remember this is also a ONE DAY AT A TIME thing. As shared above, I've been at this place in IE before and found myself back trying one more diet. I do so hope that this time that I am finally making IE my lifestyle. I seem to be eating the way I actually ate when I was a teenager which is a combo of Intermittent Fasting and Intuitive Eating. I didn't plan to combine them but that is the way I "naturally" get hungry. I only have my coffee in the morning and some where between 1 and 2 or 3 I begin to get hungry and want something to eat. Then I usually want a snack around 5 or 6. Then some time between 8 or 9, I am ready to eat something again. I am usually through by then which makes my eating window fit IF because I'm eating between 6 or 7 hrs and fasting between 17 or 18 hrs.

This is so natural for me and so far I am never hungry.

Y'all have a nice weekend.