The dancing carrot makes me happy.

Agreed, Aphil. I don't find anything excusable about making a comment like that. I would never attempt to converse with someone who said that to me (or about me within earshot) because I think it's trashy. I'm sorry, but if someone said that in my presence about me, my reaction would not be, "hey you look like a swell guy let's be BFF!".

Also, re: stereotyping based on music choices are just plain silly. A someone who has worked extensively within the music industry I can assure you that music branding and genre has nothing to do with socioeconomic placement, lifestyle, or even demographic. I am a white girl from the mountains and looooooove my newgrass and Dave Matthews...

And I heart 90's gangsta rap. Sounds of my childhood in small, upper class, white bread Colorado.

RIP Biggie.

And on the topic at hand. I think if you date someone because they are or AREN'T white, black, hispanic, Antarctican you missed the point. I think it's AWESOME that in the span of a generation we are breaking down the social boundries of acceptability. Our parents were likely brought up during Jim Crow. Their great grandparents may have owned slaves. And here we are thinking that our folk's are foolish for thinking it a faux pas to date someone outside of your race. While racism is alive and well in this country, we have certainly come a long way in our thoughts on what is socially acceptable and it should be socially acceptable to believe that love is colorblind- that you love who you love, not because you like black men or white men or purple men or orange women, but because you just love who you love.

wow, this is a pretty heavy thread!

i just wanted to throw in my experience. Back in the early 70s, my white, Jewish mom married a very black man, southern (she's born and raised Jersey), totally different culture. She had never done anything before or after that broke the rules, this was pretty much it. Her parents didn't attend the wedding. She had two sons (my older brothers) before her husband died. About 8 or 9 years later, she met and married my father, a white Jewish guy, the guy her parents probably would have wanted her to be with in the first place. They're still married and seem pretty happy.
Now, I've never seriously dated a black man, but the subject has come up, and my mother is surprisingly unsupportive of the idea, but I take her advice more seriously because she's been through it. The difficulties she faced were real, especially in the early 70s in Newark, NJ. But, she also recognizes that now isn't then, and no matter what, I know she'll support my happiness. My brother (half black) is now married to a white Irish woman, and while my mom isn't thrilled about her Catholicism, she is thrilled for their strong relationship and her new grandchild. Race doesn't really enter into that equation. Religion does.

anyway, i think the point is to live your life for you. Easier said than done, but the fact is that some people will always disapprove, just like they're going to disapprove of the clothes you wear or the food you eat. But, what can you do? You're the only person who you CONSTANTLY have to hang out with, so you're really the most important person to have happy with you. Cliche, i know. But true.

S

Yes -- the worst thing in the world you can do, in any situation, is patronize someone, imo.

I agree that saying I only date black men or I only date white or asian or anything other than I only date men (vs I only date women vs I'll date anything with two legs) is just as bad.

As a parent who strongly remembers being a teen I can tell you that there is a bit of defiance in a child who is ONLY attracted to the type of person that upsets their parents.

my sons are grown. and were raised by their dad and stepmom and are NOT allowed to even date girls that are not Jewish. I was not allowed to either. interestingly my husband is not jewish now. my father took nearly 4 years of marriage to accept that he's a good man.

Hahahaha!! That is so funny!!

This thread is a bit heavy. I think it needs more carrots.

I agree that, not to sound TOO cheesy, that it really is the inside that counts in these kinds of issues -- writing off whole racial segments of the population as undesireable is kind of a trap.

But then again, people are attracted to what they're attracted to and you can only argue against that to a point. Of course, falling in love with someone who doesn't fit your type can happen (and often does!) but lots of people have a type that they're primarily attracted to, myself included. My type isn't all that strange, really, or controversial, but I *LOVE* really Mediterranean looking men -- olive complexion, dark hair, strong Roman nose (I have a *thing* for strong, angular noses, heh) -- as Southern European-looking as possible. That's not to say that I've never dated/been attracted to a guy that doesn't fit that description, but if I'm being completely honest, those are the guys I tend to find best looking. And of course, men that look that way aren't always the best boyfriend-material either but they're nice to look at on the subway

Yup, everyone has a preference to what they "look" at first, you get me?.
I automatically look at black men first, I love me some sexy dark chocolate. (haha oh God).
That's just my nature.... however, I have seen men of other races that I thought were hot. I do like spanish men to, however we don't have many spanish people around here, so I've never actually spoke to one. But I do think their attractive.
White men can be hot too... Black men just catch my eye first.
There's a lot of tension in here, which I didn't intend for.
If you don't have anything nice to say, keep it to yourself.

THAT is pretty interesting. Growing up, my very conservative parents put some pretty um... strong limitations on who I could date. It was never really an issue, as I was so so overweight and had such low self-esteem for most of my life that I never dated anyone til my 20's and I met my fiance shortly thereafter. When I DId meet my fiance, who is European (Balkan), I expected they'd take issue with his foreign-ness and, even more so, with the fact that he's Muslim. But oddly, they never did. We're not religious, but we are Catholic, and he's not a religious Muslim at all, but I was expecting much more trouble from them about his religion, considering how conservative they are ab everything else. It never happened. I guess people can surprise you!

Rather than go around quoting different things in this entire thread (because I would have 10,000 quotes and my post would be WAY too long) I just want to give you all some of my opinions.

***My first opinion is on the "agree to disagree" thing. We all have different opinions, and that is fine. However, if your opinion differs from another, those differences can be expressed in a NICE way. Flaming others, and picking fights is against the 3FC rules.

It isn't the fact that people disagree that gets threads closed-it is the manner in which people start typing/speaking to one another. If you disagree with someone, it should be in a respectful, adult manner. Please keep this in mind.

***Secondly, the language. I did make a note that we have a smilie. Also, I would like to add that the way someone speaks affects how people view them. I am a dance instructor, performer, and troupe director-and I could have the BEST dancer in the world, but I would not have someone work with me if they did not speak and act in a professional manner. I currently have a young lady in one of my classes who would be a phenominal performer, but I will not put her in my troupe, and her language and the way that she acts is the reason. I cannot have her at festivals, charity events, and so on-with me, if she is going to be smoking cigarettes in her costume right before we go on stage, talking about her taking her ex to court, and peppering her stories with obscenities.

I do not think that the poster who was speaking about the people calling the vet's office was being racist. I deal with the same thing in my community-and it is people of all walks of life, and all colors. Some people simply do not have decorum, and act properly in public. I have had people sit at the next table at expensive restaurants, where I am with my husband and three young CHILDREN, and they talk trash and use obscene language where everyone can hear.

In my opinion, if you are at home, or a party with friends-talk however you want. When you are calling a business, at a job interview, or in a place where there are other people present-you should act like it. It goes for the forum as well. There are people of all walks of life here-everyone from teenagers to great grandmothers, and of all religions and backgrounds. What may be normal speak to you, might be highly offensive to someone else.

When people swear constantly, and talk about inappropriate things, it honestly makes me think less of them. It also makes me think of them as less educated, because they seem to have no other way of expressing themselves, other than with obscenities. How you speak affects other's perception of you. How you act and speak affects how people see you. It has nothing to do with race. If someone comes up to me who is well spoken, I think much higher of them than I would if they were using "F" in every other sentence.

So, it isn't always your opinion or view that turns someone off...often it is in the manner that it is spoken (or typed).


***I FULLY disagree with people who blame the past solely for their problems of today. I do. I think that it is passing the buck, and not taking responsibity for your own actions.

I think that it is ridiculous rap music, and the gangster lifestyle to be blamed on white people back in the 70's. If you are going to be a rapper, or be a gangster, or whatever-you are going to do it because you choose to do it. Don't blame it on history.

My husband is Native American. His father was born on the reservation, in a teepee, with no birth certificate. They are both registered Oglala Sioux. They didn't even record his father's birthdate-so the government GAVE him one. I wanted to clarify this, so you would not think that he is one of those people who say "I am 1/16th Native American" and don't even know what nation, etc. that it even came from. My husband's father was shot in a police brutality incident when my husband was in high school. His father was shot in cold blood, and was unarmed. It's a long story, but there was no fighting, or anything involved. His father was simply walking home.

The reason that I am mentioning this, is because if ANYONE has a right to sit back and blame all of their problems on their race, and on white people-it is my husband. I am tired of people blaming everything on racism, when a good deal of the time, their own actions and attitudes are to blame. My husband could have sat back, got checks from the government, and drank himself to death-and blamed it on white people. He didn't. Instead, he went to college, got 2 degrees, and has a successful career, kids, and a wife.

I am tired of people saying that I (and other white people) have it easy, because we are "white". My husband isn't blaming every white person in the world for what happened to his father. He blames one man-the policeman who shot him. "I" don't want to be blamed for things because I am white. I never owned slaves, and neither did my parents, or grandparents, or great grandparents. Why should I be blamed for something that I had nothing do do with. On that same note, why should an 18 year old minority be using that excuse, when he was never a slave, nor his parents, nor his grandparents? We have a young generation that is blaming one another for actions that happened in history that none of us were involved with. How many years are we going to continue to use that tragic happening as an excuse?

If people want equality, and want racism to stop-then those same people need to stop pulling the race card out when something happens that they don't like. As long as people continue to blame other races for their lot in life, or "use" being a minority to get what they want...then racism is going to continue. You can't have it both ways.

aphil -- I agree with you 100%, ab everything.

Imo, past racism, government policies towards certain racial or ethnic groups, social attitudes towards certain races or groups, whatever, *DO* play a part in the current race situation in the US (even though many would say that situation is improving, at least somewhat), but eventually the culture of victimhood HAS TO END for progress to be made. Period.

Has injustice existed in the US? Absolutely. Does it STILL exist? No question. But injustice will always exist, towards certain races, religions, GENDERs, what have you, bc society will never be perfect. But for people to do well, to prosper and to improve the social situation, people need to accept responsibility for their own lives and happiness and not pass blame onto others. You can't change or undo the past and harping on the past doesn't fix the present. Does that mean we forget ab the past, or ignore it? NO NO NO! but it does mean we move forward -- you draw strength from the past, not excuses, not reasons to feel like a victim.

At least imo.

I'm not going to jump back in because while I love a discussion with someone who sees things differently than me, it's not fun to keep defending yourself against things you never said in the first place; and frankly the hostility ate at me all day while I was trying to enjoy my company who were visiting from out of state.

And I did not mean mean to hijack the original question.

But I didn't want to just drop out on people who were responding to me. I only got back late last night.

Thanks Taylor, that made me feel better

Aphil-not to sound creepy, but I love you. I agree with everything you said.

So anywho-we are all agreeing to disagree. I think that's wonderful. And I'm sorry to anyone that I offended, but that is just the way that I feel, and it would take a lot to make me change my mind, and that is for sure not happening in this forum. I guess I just get so used to debating my opinion in the vegan forums I visit that I forget that this forum is a little less, um, intended for arguments and more for supporting each other.

Here, lets have some of these:

Oh, I totally agree. I have read studies where it shows that people have a tendency to be attracted to features not unlike their own. I think people have natural attractions to certain features, whether it's like yours or totally different. You like what you like, right? It's the "I know lots of black people! My best friend is black!" or waving a big flag of pride because you exclusively date only one race. I just get the impression that it's not about you actually liking that person for who they are (and being attracted to them), but about having a certain image. I hope that wasn't too convoluted or that I offended a ton of people in one fell swoop.

I personally have never dated anyone of a different race, but for the same reasons as KLK (low self esteem, no dating in HS, etc...), but I had plenty of crushes. My mother always said I could date who I wanted but added the whole, "society may not approve..." line, which I think is bogus. Now in the late 80's, my sister *tried* to date a black guy and my mother FREAKED. So much for dating who you want, huh? But I have to have perspective about it. My sister and that guy are best friends to this day and my mother has chilled out a lot. She's always talked the open-minded talk, but she had a much harder time walking the walk. But I consider her growth an improvement from the backwoods East Texas upbringing she had where her family STILL uses the N-word (disgusting) and my aunt had to give a child up for adoption in the 70's because the father was black. I can't imagine being raised like that and because it's so unimagineable to me, I think my mom, even though she had some closet hang-ups, did something right.

I think this is a GREAT discussion and while it did get a little silly a page or two back, I think it's a thread worth keeping open. I think our fear to talk about these things only leads to more misunderstanding on the issue as a whole.

I still stand by what I said. And I'm not of the opinion that I was being unkind or flaming, there were a few comments here and there to that effect and I don't agree with that. That is because I was merely discussing my opinions and didn't have the intention to offend. I agree to agree to disagree. But just because my opinions don't equal some of yours does not mean I was flaming or being mean (someone said something about if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all or something like that. I think it's interesting how people suddenly become 'rude' or 'unkind' when they are merely stating opinions that differ from others.) Like I said, I agree to disagree and never intended on, or meant to, offend.

I was bored with discussing so I wasn't intending on making another appearance in this thread, but I did come back to read some comments, and I saw Julie's comments, and I would like to address her.

Julie (I forgot the rest of your username, so Julie it is), I didn't mean for you to feel like you were being flamed or hurt your feelings in any way. I understand that we both have very different opinions. I am a debater by nature and can argue for hours. I used to debate with my great-uncle about politics for hours and he'd get so mad, but at the end of the day I still loved my uncle despite our differing opinions and still had respect for him as well. It's just in my nature to discuss/debate and sometimes I don't realize when I cross the line between discussing and plain out arguing. And on the net, things can be misconstrued, tone and meanings can be hard to read. I feel like crap that you couldn't even enjoy your company because of my posting (I assume you meant me). I was just under the impression that we were both arguing our different view points. Never once did it cross my mind that I was actually offending you or making you feel bad. That was not my intention at all. I respect that you have a differing opinion. I was just in my "Fat Melanie Debate" mode. I'm honestly sorry.