My thoughts...Michael Moore is a creep and I would never watch anything he does...movies, interviews, whatever it is. Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative, Moderate, whatever...it would be nice to see him do something to unite people instead of further divide them.

Not too confusing. Sorry...MM is like Rap music to me...just stirs up all kinds of hate feelings and makes my blood boil.

Healthcare: When I went to college, HALF of the women in my classes were having their entire college paid for by the government totally because they proved themselves to be fertile before the age of twenty and needed assistance. One woman was 25 years old and was PG with her FIFTH KID...ALL DIFFERENT DADS! The government paid for her housing, food, daycare, college tuition, EVERYTHING. This isn't a shot at single parents, because there I was right amongst them having a baby and not married....but I went to work at my co-op job at Kodak (jobs that were, literally, being given away by means of simply going to college to become a secretary) and had FULL BENEFITS paid to me in the form of an HMO through BC/BS. All I had to do was go to the counselor's office and say, "I want a co-op job at Kodak" and it was mine! NONE of the other girls in my classes would take the jobs because it would take away what the government was giving them. And, I got into Koday full-time when I graduated.

I didn't have my classes paid for for me....I went to the bursar's office once an month and paid for them myself. I didn't get government housing, I moved in with my grandma until I graduate. I took care of MYSELF. As I said, this isn't a stab at single mothers, but a backing up of Gary's statement of how people take gross advantage of the system without every considering taking care of themselves, totally missing out on the freedom of being independent and the elation of knowing you did it and got through it by yourself. NOt to mention the importance of showing your children the example of not depending on a government check to get you by.

I'll be sitting here waiting to by cyber bashed by people who are more intelligent then I am or more knowing or more open minded or whatever it is that makes you think you're better than me because you haven't been in my shoes and seen the abuse of the system that I've seen. I realize that I'm not as smart as the rest of you, but this topic just really angers me to the point that I need a couple of TWINKIES!!! The abuse of the system is VERY MUCH SO taken advantage of and if you disagree with me, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

I'm sure there are stories from both sides in both the US and any other country - both people taking gross advantage of the programs available to them, as well as people who found themselves in circumstances where they needed assistance and couldn't get what they needed. Both sides exist, and both are problems.

Please don't fall into the twinkies! It isn't worth it!

It ain't sayin' much TECH but you're smarter than me! And you KNOW I got yer back!

Nope KIDDO you are smart ~ the thread just wandered off the main track...personally I am OK with it...much like general conversations.

Good luck against Nebraska on friday

I'm Canadian, and can only speak from my own experience, but I feel very fortunate to have the medical care that exists here. It's not a perfect system, by any means, but show me where a perfect system exists?

I can see the doctor of my choosing whenever an appointment is available. I rarely have to wait more than a day or two for a regular appointment, and if I need to see a specialist, will often have an appointment within 2 weeks (in an emergency situation, I was in front of a specialist within 2 hours). I also have the option of visiting any walk-in clinic and being seen within a couple of hours. I have been hospitalized three times - birth of my son, removal of my gallbladder, and treatment of an infection. In all cases, I had a private room, fantastic care, access to specialists, and no outrageous bill at the end. Under the Fair Pharmacare program, we do get our prescriptions covered after hitting a family deductible (different for each family, based on income). In our case, due to my son's medical needs, we often hit our deductible within the first quarter of the year - after that, all meds are paid for 100%. Also, my son has been hospitalized numerous times and requires ongoing care with a specialist - thankfully, because of where we live and the medical care in place, we've never had to worry about the costs involved with his condition and care. It leaves us free to just care for him, which is a very big deal to me.

My son's care, without the insurance we have here, would cost us over $600 per month in out of pocket expenses - that's just for him alone, and doesn't include anything else that might arise, like a broken leg or a bump on the head, or anything DH and I might need. We do pay a bit more in taxes, but in my family's case, at least, we have definitely received much more in return for what we've had to pay.

As a postpartum nurse, unfortunately I see this all the time. Some people make really bad choices and it's too bad that we all have to pay for it. About half of the women that I care for are on some kind of government assistance. I have been a nurse for 30 years and the number of single parents has skyrocketed. Not surprisingly, many are on welfare. An increasing number have exposed their babies to drugs and tobacco. I never treat anyone differently, regardless of their situation. I want everyone to have the best possible experience with their new child that I can give them. But sometimes, I feel discouraged that some people only make their plight worse by making bad choices. I worry about the kids the most.

But you just don't know people's circumstances. I have a friend who, when she got pregnant, had a fabulous job at a mortgage company. She decided she could support the child, and well she could at the time. The baby was conceived despite birth control used, according to the friend, properly (but who really knows...). Then the housing market crashed, and she found herself without a job or insurance, 5 months pregnant. She searched the entire time she was pregnant for a job, but no one would hire someone who was showing (after all, they'd have to give maternity leave...it isn't legal, but it happens). She couldn't afford private insurance or even COBRA because she wasn't bringing in any money. She had a TERRIBLE experience with the MediCal system that almost resulted in her baby's death. And some nurse at the hospital made a comment to her about "welfare moms" and the bad decisions they made...after she had been in labor for 40 hours.

The hospital where she was required to have her baby (almost exclusively there for births of mothers on MediCal...the women in her lamaze classes were all on assistance of some kind) had no anesthesiologist on staff because of budget. If a baby went into distress, they had to call an anasthesiologist to give an epidural before they could do a c-section. Anyone who works in childbirth knows that if your doctor has to drive 15 minutes before you can get a c-section, it is likely going to be too late.

Again, there are multiple sides to every story, and people who abuse the system as well as those who can't get the care they need despite trying to make the best choices.

ETA: The saddest part of this story, for me, was what happened when she and the baby's father tried to get couples counseling. They had only been together 3 months when she became pregnant, but they made a joint commitment to try to make it work. Unfortunately, since they had been together only a short time, they had some issues. They wanted to go to therapy to try to resolve the issues before they became parents. There were NO counseling resources available to them. It was so sad to see a couple TRYING to do the right thing - unite before having a child that may not have been timed as well as it might have been - being unable to get the help they needed.

No , you don't. That's why you should never be judgemental. Only offer them as much help as able to.

Sorry Amanda. You're a smart gal and I admire and appreciate you very much however I can't let this go by ....
[QUOTE=mandalinn82;1934674]
If a baby went into distress, they had to call an anasthesiologist to give an epidural before they could do a c-section. Anyone who works in childbirth knows that if your doctor has to drive 15 minutes before you can get a c-section, it is likely going to be too late. [QUOTE]

I'm very afraid that this is the kind of information that sends young pregnant women into an unnatural tailspin of worry.

In hundreds of small hospitals all over North America, there is not full surgical staff in the building 24/7. If we have an anesthesiologist on call (whether in the building or at home) we'll git er done -or- we pop young mom in an ambulance and send her 35 mins down the road to a larger centre. I think, although we'd need Midwife to know for sure, that about the same time frame exists for planned home births.

I don't like to openly call out a disagreement but I felt strongly about this one.

We're a trauma center so we always have an anethesiologist in house, but sometimes they are tied up on another case. Thankfully, there is usually more than one available. However, I have heard of a few tragic cases in the past where there was a wait involved and not a good outcome for baby. This was many years ago and not a problem where I work. By the way a emergency c-section would have a general anesthetic, not an epidural.

SusanB - another girl in her Lamaze class went into labor a week before she did, in the same hospital. The baby went into distress, they paged the anesthesiologist, and he got there too late. My friend found out about this friend's baby's death a week before she went into labor. So it CAN be risky to give birth in a hospital without an anesthesiologist on staff. It isn't going to be a bad outcome all the time, or a bad outcome even most of the time, but it is riskier. I guess my point is that women who are insured have more choices in hospital, or get to choose whether they have a home birth. Women who can't go to any other hospital don't have that choice.

Not to mention that the only pain control offered for mothers giving birth there was narcotics. They did not have the option of an epidural.

I just found it eyeopening as to the differences in hospitals for insured patients and hospitals used primarily by women on public assistance.

This is not at all pertinent but is a cute coincidence.
Almost 26 years ago my BP was 210/110 and baby's heart rate was 60 (counted on a watch with a stethoscope!) Late on a Sunday evening, in our small hospital (where I still work) we called a crash section. All the OR staff had to drive in. There was no such thing as an epidural in our area then.

That baby boy just wandered downstairs mumbling that he couldn't get to sleep and has to work in the morning.

Just watched this documentary a few nights ago, and wanted to post some thoughts on it and others on this thread....

I admire and even encourage Michael Moore for making documentaries that at least get folks talking and taking ACTION on an issue....indeed, there were quite a few things in this documentary that rang all too true for me based on my own experiences. However, I do have a few bones to pick with his movie though....he reportedly took a few years to do this, so he should've had both sides to the story here...for instance, England, Canada, and whoever else insurance was supposed to be so fabulous...well, I'm sure there are a few things about it that's not quite so fabulous....in addition, I felt like he really only did a very minor story on the health care issues here in America, so that should've been improved upon. I felt like overall, his documentary was too full of cheesy cliches, and could've been much more informative than it was.

Now regarding America's health care issues....Michael Moore is correct when he basically implies that insurance companies, even the most elite of them, generally only want you pay into it every month, but will drop you like a hot potato the minute you need them to start paying your hospital bills. I've experienced this for a FULL year when I needed my college insurance to pay for a surgery, and even had my own doctor call them repeatedly to get them to pay, only to have my insurance expire a few months later with no payment in sight. Guess what finally ended up paying for it? Medicare and Medicaid, half-n-half....which really was a shocker for me since these two insurances are generally considered to be the ultimate scorn by doctors, and I'm always having to go to a clinic that's the only one in town that will take these insurance, and this clinic by the way is usually staffed by doctors fresh out of medical school. To say I don't have a choice in who I see is putting it mildly.

I much prefer I didn't have these insurances, but I am deaf with a CI implant, so I need them for various doctor's visits and audiology. Without these free insurance, I would be in a serious hurt. By the way, I'm also a college student. I have had jobs before that offers ZERO benefits, and do everything they can to avoid giving you these benefits too. I have seen people try their hardest to rise above their poverty status, only to get knocked every which way coming and going by the govt. In the end, they usually just give up and resign themselves to what is.

On the flip coin, I have also witnessed folks who clearly need some help from the govt, and can't get it for all the pennies in the world. It's insane what our govt has come to, and I have no hope in our political leaders in correcting it either. Especially not today in light of our serious budget issues, in which we are now in debt by the trillions. I have a feeling a lot of our programs will be cut, and we will be taxed much more than we are now to pay for the debt....it's just a matter of time. Maybe then we'll see universal health care in America, who knows?

Amanda ... yes, that's one of the things that I feel is far better about socialized medicine. If we don't have it handy, it's not far away -and- available for everyone.