I had to step in again (after my novel in my last post) because I keep seeing this "you're not eating enough". "you're starving yourself". Not just in this thread, but in a lot of other threads.

First off, let's talk about those 'calculators' you find all over the 'Net that supposedly use your bodyweight and height and age to figure out how many calories you should take in per day. IMO they work...up to a certain extent (maybe up to 140-150 pounds). But the calculators are just using an equation that was programmed into the site - they use the same calculation whether the data is for a 98 lb person or a 198 lb person or a 298 lb person - in which case they'll tell you you can eat over 2000 calories a day and lose weight or over 2500 to maintain weight. IMO that is total bunk and it's no wonder that so many obese people who use those calculators as a guide for eating end up frustrated - because they aren't losing weight.

IMO and from my own personal experience - if you are 100+ pounds overweight, and not exercising or exercising very sporadically, and eating 1700 calories a day, you are NOT starving yourself. One of the things about being obese (and again, I HAVE BEEN THERE) is that your body has become very, very adept in squirreling away those extra calories "for future use". I'm not a personal trainer, but I would expect that if you were to see a personal trainer, he or she would likely start you on what I would consider a fairly moderate exercise program (brisk walking on the treadmill, some weights and stretching) and put you on a nutrition plan with a max of 1,500 calories a day. MAX.

As far as the "gaining lean muscle mass when you exercise". That is probably true - but the thing is from what I've gleaned in your posts, you're not really exercising enough to make any real measurable difference in muscle mass...a mile and a half on an exercise bike isn't much in the way of exercise (I'm not trying to be mean here, and I *know* that ANY exercise is better than NONE at all...but ya gotta KEEP going. One of the keys to weight loss is persistence you have to find the right thing to do and keep on DOING it!). From experience and also from my reading (I might have to ask Meg or Mel to chime in here) it takes a long time and a lot of work to gain even a pound of muscle (granted, people who are new to weight training will show initial muscle gains that are greater than average) bicycling is primarily a cardio activity and not really a weight-bearing activity per se, especially if you're using a stationary bike. Again the key is consistency and persistence, if you really, really want to get the pounds off and KEEP them off.

And lastly - regarding the 'healthy' crap food - personally I DON'T keep that stuff around the house. Remember Dr. Phil's Weight Loss Challenge in 2004? Whether you like the man or hate him, he had some great practical advice - one of the best pieces of advise was about controlling your environment. What that means is you get all the crap food OUT of the house - kind of like giving up booze or ciggies. You wouldn't keep a pack of smokes in the house if you were trying to quit the cancer stick habit would you - because you KNOW what would inevitably happen. It's the same with crap food. (and again, I've BEEN there - back in the mid-1990's when I got caught up in the "Snackwells Phenomenon" along with everyone else - as long as something was fat-free or ultra-low-fat, then I could eat whatever I wanted with impunity - so I was buying and eating those "healthy" Fat-Free Fig Newtons, that "healthy" fat free cereal and other 'healthy treats' like fat-free Red Whips licorice and meantime wondering why I was gaining weight!)

Personally, if I have a package of, say, Skinny Cows in the freezer, they become EATEN Skinny Cows in a very very short period of time. Same with stuff like Wonder Bread, crackers, microwave popcorn, peanut butter, etc. It doesn't mean I DON'T eat that stuff on occasion (very occasionally) it just means I don't keep it around the house. Sure, there are times when I want an ice-cream-like treat - so what I'll do is go to the frozen yogurt shop across town and get a SINGLE serving of my favorite flavor which I make sure I enjoy.

What I would suggest you do is be HONEST with yourself (not saying you're NOT being honest though). Start measuring your portions and tracking your food/caloric intake (fitday.com is a great free site to use) and your exercise - what kind of exercise you do, the intensity, how long you exercised.

But to say that you're not eating enough...I don't think so. I definitely think you're eating too much of the WRONG things and not enough of the right things, and you're taking in more calories than you're burning off.

I'd also recommend being tested for insulin resistance as well. Even if you're not insulin resistant, it's almost always a great idea to cut way way way back on the sugar, IMO

My own personal weight loss experiences back up everything you're saying, MrsJ.

I started at 257 pounds and never ate more than 1600 calories per day. I coupled that with weights 3 times a week (eventually 5 times a week) and daily cardio. Within the first month, I had worked my way up to an hour on the elliptical every day and did that for the whole year I was losing weight (I probably only skipped cardio 5 or 6 times in that whole year). And it was pretty intense cardio - the machine said that I was burning over 800 calories per hour (not that I believe the machines but that's how I gauged my intensity). On most days, I did between 90 and 120 minutes of exercise per day.

As my weight dropped, I was forced to drop my calories in order to keep losing. You see, as you lose weight, you don't need as many daily calories because you have a smaller body to feed. So whenever I hit a plateau, I dropped my calories and started losing again. The last four months or so, I stayed at 1200 calories per day (and continued to lose at the rate of about 1.5 pounds per week).

Just like MrsJ said in an earlier post, the winning formula for me was/is really simple = EAT LESS and MOVE MORE. We all have to create a calorie deficit in order to lose fat. That's all it is, folks - there's no secret and no tricks.

I honestly think it's going to be pretty tough to create a calorie deficit at a fairly high calorie level with little or no exercise. Weight loss is going to be excruiatingly slow or nonexistent unless you take in at lot fewer calories than you use in a day. So once again successful weight loss boils down to a combination of eating less and moving more.

I know there's talk on the boards about starvation mode and how that can stall weight loss. I personally never ran into a problem with starvation mode, even when I spent months at 1200 calories per day (and occasionally lower). From what I've read, it's really not a factor to be concerned about unless you go way below that 1200 calorie threshold for an extended period of time.

As I read the posts here at 3FC, it seems like people are too eager to jump on the 'need to eat more' bandwagon when they're not losing. It's an enticing thought, for sure - 'oh wow, I can eat more AND lose weight!' Kind of like having your cake and eating it too. But, unfortunately, that's usually not the way it works. Our bodies are all different in how they react, of course, but my humble opinon is that usually people need to eat LESS and do MORE exercise when they're not losing weight. Honestly, we all tend to underestimate how much we're eating and overestimate what we're doing for exercise. My advice when someone's weight loss stalls is to really be honest about what you're eating, cut back the calories a bit, and do a minimum of 60 minutes of intense exercise per day (weights and cardio).

To anyone who's stalled - why not give it a try? Just try cutting your calories and increase your exercise. I lost 122 pounds in a little less than a year -- despite being hypothyroid and 46 years old -- with the 'eat less, move more' formula - maybe it will work for you too?

One more thought and then I promise I'll shut up ... MrsJ's right about the exercise and muscle building. Cardio exercise - like riding a bike, the elliptical, running etc - is fantastic for burning calories but isn't going to build muscles. In order to build muscle, you have to be lifting weights. So if you're doing cardio and gaining weight, it's NOT due to adding muscle - sorry!

Muscle weighs the same as fat, of course. A pound of muscle is a pound and a pound of fat is a pound. Adding muscle will only cause you to gain weight if you aren't losing fat at the same time - if you add a pound of muscle and don't lose any fat, your weight will go up exactly one pound. But it's surprisingly hard for us women to add even a few pounds of muscle and it certainly doesn't happen overnight or in just a few weeks. If you're not lifting weights hard and still seeing the scale go up, it's due to something other than additional pounds of muscle.

When you hear people saying that 'muscle is heavier than fat', they usually mean that muscle is smaller and denser than fat, so a pound of muscle takes up a lot less room in your body than a pound of fat. Check out this photo of five pounds of fat versus five pounds of muscle for a vivid illustration.

We WANT to add muscle because muscle is what burns calories (you burn 50 calories per pound of lean body mass every day). Think of your muscles as the little furnaces that suck up the calories that you eat every day. And it's denser and firmer and looks so much nicer on our butts and thighs than FAT! Yay, muscle!!!

I agree!!!! I LOVE my muscles!!!!!

FYI, about 'eating more to lose weight'

I eat a lot more food now that I'm LOSING than I did when I was consistently gaining. There's a difference between numbers of calories and the amount of food. I eat fewer calories now, but a heck of a lot more food. I just wanted to chime in and clear up that when I said our friend here is 'not eating enough' that's what I meant. One cookie can take up a lot of calories, but it just doesn't fill the void like a cup of spinach for example.

That's a good point Tammara, when I eat my previous eating regime (which I shudder to think about) the calorie count must have been (gulp) 2500 - 4000 calories a day, but the volumes of food were quite small. No breakfast, a chocolate bar and a packet of crisps at midmorning, soemthing suitably unhealthy for lunch, more snacks in the afternoon, and far too much rich food for dinner. If you laid out my weekly food intake on a big table I think the food I eat now would fill the whole table, but the food then would fill about 3/4 of the table, looking purely from a volume, not calorie point of view.

Now I eat a lot more fruit and veggies and healthy carbs, and my actual volume of food is a lot higher, although the calorie count is a lot lower. So many people, at least that I know here in this country, when they "diet" eat commercial "low fat" convenience foods which are often high in sugar, and whilst they may be "calorie controlled" the portions are so small, people wonder why they are hungry all the time, and end up breaking their "diet". I try to keep my food as unprocessed as possible, so I know what I am eating.

Biggie - that's an excellent point and what you said makes a lot of sense. I completely agree that even though it all comes down to calories, the quality of the food in those calories makes a huge difference to our health and eating satisfaction.

You're so right that you can eat much more REAL food for the calories -- fruits and veggies give us so much more 'bang for the buck', as it were. Right now, I'm sitting here eating a popcorn bowl full of salad with low-fat dressing - all for about 75 calories. It takes forever to eat and totally fills me up. For the same 75 calories, I could have ... four McDonalds french fries ... one bite of a Krispy Kreme donut ... or two tablespoons of Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

Hi Kykaree! We posted pretty much the same thing at the same time.

LOL!!!! I always say I had good teachers, there's proof!!

I think that's why on past diets, I was always starving. I'd eat a lot of salad to make up for having one "decent" meal. But if I had made that meal into lean meats and veggies, perhaps even a little starch, I'd have had just as much with fewer calories and been just as full and not had to eat salad the rest of the time.

Ladies.. I just gotta tell ya there is some awesome information in this post.. Thanks so much!!

I'll second Dona's reply. Great info! Thanks everyone.

I have a question though. I have followed a low-carb (no sugar), low saturated fat, high protein diet for almost 3 months now and think I'm doing pretty well. As I lose weight and up my exercise.(Now that I actually enjoy it!) I notice I am hungrier and am eating more calories. Esp. after a workout. I watch my calories and was eating 1200-1300 pretty consistently but now find myself around 1400-1600 more often than not. And always on the days I exercise more than I used to. I am still losing so I guess I don't have a problem. Just curious why it is I am hungrier and should I be listening to my body and feeding it when it is hungrier or should I be sticking to my plan of 1200-1300. I really dont mean to sound stupid but ya'll have the experience and I'm just wondering what you do.
thanks, Kim

1400-1600 is still in weight loss mode, and if you are experiencing actual hunger on the days you work out intensely, then you should listen to your body and eat at that level on those days, and 1200-1300 the other days and you should be just fine.

I agree with Aphil eat good healthy foods when you are hungry specially lean proteins and unprocessed carbs as soon as you can after a workout... Have you upped your weights during weight training lately, if you have, this may be why you are hungrier... EAT it's good for ya!

I agree with the fact that we aren't starving ourselves by eating 1500 calories per day. However, I do know that if you go from eating 3000 calories per day to 1200 calories per day, your metabolism will slow down significantly and it will take your body longer to lose weight. It is advised by nutritionists/dieticians to slowly drop your caloric intake and also to fluctuate your calories by 200 -300 calories every 3 days so that your metabolism stays at a high functioning rate. They also recommend you do not eat 500 calories below your caloric maintenance level. If you are in the high 100's (lbs) and above, your body can afford to eat more calories while still losing weight. This is implemented in WW - the more overweight you are, the more calories (points) you are allowed while still losing weight. As you lose weight, of course your body doesn't need as many calories to sustain itself.

There are many women who have posted that they were eating 1200 calories per day and were experiencing a plateau - they got advice to eat a few hundred more calories and then they later post that it took them out of their "slump" and they were able to lose again.

Everyone's body is different and burns calories at a different rate - each person should do what works for them.

IMHO
Melanie