This is the BEST group ever! You are each such gems.

I am worried about what the gastric bypass surgery will do to people down the road too. I am fat because I love to eat. Food is emotional and inspirational. That is why the holidays are hard, food is the centerpiece and we tear ourselves up over what we can and can't have. At least we have an option, we can train ourselves to eat healthy and not beat ourselves up for having pie AND have less fat. People who have done gastric bypass will NEVER enjoy a normal meal with their families again and most of them never dealt with the issues that got them there.

I have had about 15 ladies at my office get the gastric bypass, 1 of them died and the others are alive. They are thinner now. Several look MUCH older. Many are pale with thin hair. None are the picture of health to me. Several people have had the lap band too. Those people lost it slower and worked out and look healthy, but somehow, it doesn't seem like they "earned" it.

I agree with Catherine. Each pound is the focus. I get on the scale everyday and, although I have lost 111 pounds, I am upset at any fluctuation up. I want to see my most recent obstacle gone!

"Several people have had the lap band too. Those people lost it slower and worked out and look healthy, but somehow, it doesn't seem like they "earned" it."

My advice to you, and to others who feel as though they cheated to lose the weight, is to spend a few minutes on the WLS part of the forum. I have, because lately I've had to consider having WLS. I just have to say that those people work just as hard, if not harder, to keep off the weight. They still have to watch what they eat, and if they're doing things the right way, they exercise just as much, and worry just as much as we do.

I agree WLS isn't for everyone, and I'm hoping to avoid it if at all possible. But, if the time comes where it's a last resort option, I will hold my head up high and I will accept it and work my butt off to make it effective, and to live a healthier life.

Hi everyone

I had something else to add about the surgery. One of the ladies needed it--she couldn't lose the weight no matter how hard she tried. And she's eating healthy and she can exercise now and it's been good for her all around--her self esteem has risen, she's been able to do more things with her family, etc. She is so grateful that she can now live life more normally.

The other lady who had it used it as a "quick fix" method to weight loss. She had been losing weight and exercising when her sister had the surgery. She saw how quickly her sister lost weight and she decided that she wanted to lose it that fast too. So she stopped paying attention to her food and exercise so that she would gain all of her weight back and be eligible for the surgery. And now she actually has the NERVE to say things to my sister in law (SIL) about what she's eating. My SIL has been a size 16 at the most and she's been consistently a 12-14 for several years now and her sister who chose the EASY WAY out has no right to say anything to her about what my SIL chooses to eat! Those are the people Brandnewme--who I think we're all talking about when we say that it doesn't seem like they earned it. At least those are the people I'm talking about. You do not fall into that category. You are working hard to lose weight and if you need the surgery--that's okay! At least you know that you didn't just do it because it was the easy way. ((((Hugs))))

I myself wouldn't elect to have that surgery. I'm too afraid of it. Now that's not saying that I wouldn't have a few nips and tucks when I FINALLY get down to my goal weight. After all, a girl has to be logical--when you have a belly that hangs what are the odds of it becoming flat and not hanging after years of being a slug? (Talking about myself here ) Seriously--does anyone know?

Well, I'll check in later. I have to go buy dog food--I ended up not going yesterday--and I have to wrap some presents. In addition to my own wrapping I've taken on the task of wrapping the presents my mother bought for my sisters and brothers families. I like wrapping and I usually do a nice job of it.

I hope that you all have a great day!

Vicki

Before I started hanging out here at 3fc I was fairly anti-wls. I have spent some time reading on the wls board here, and it has been very enlightening. The decision to have wls is not generally one made lightly, and I think for some people who have health issues, it can be more difficult to lose weight without surgical intervention. That is, for some people, it IS the only option.

But there are people who apparently DO see it as an "easy out" (perhaps fewer of those on 3fc), and there are doctors who will perform the surgery on patients without perhaps trying other options.

A few weeks ago I posted a link to a blog by a doctor who basically confessed that he believes the morbidly obese present a "challenge" he's not very good at dealing with. In part 2 of this discussion he says: "[I] generally try to consider a surgical approach in these patients, as I believe that the probability of weight loss success in these patients is otherwise incredibly low." (http://medrants.com/archives/2003/09...rbid-obesity/). His first entry is here: http://medrants.com/archives/2003/09/24/

Weight loss IS difficult. And may be especially so for those of us who are morbidly obese. But if the medical community doesn't believe people can do it, then perhaps people are being shunted to surgery before other options really have been fully explored. The mind is a powerful force, and believing something is or is not possible makes it more likely to be so! (research on self-fulfilling prophecies baacks me up on that claim).

I guess the point I'd like to make is that WE may be at the forefront of a movement that may be able to help convince the medical community, as well as other obese people, that even the morbidly obese can lose weight (and keep it off) with diet and exercise. At least some of them. I am NOT trying to denigrate people who choose WLS, not at all. I am trying to be critical of a society that looks for quick fixes (which many believe WLS to be) and of a system that doesn't believe that weight loss for the morbidly obese is possible without surgery. I want to prove them wrong.

I'd LOVE to hear further discussion on the topic!

I think the reason I feel they haven't "earned" it as much as those without WLS is that they are FORCED to have to watch what they eat or they will actually have physical repercussions. Those without WLS have to face the mental, intellectual, and emotional issues connected to their overeating or other issues with food, whereas after WLS, it's simply (well, not "simply," but you know what I mean), "if I eat that, I'll get sick." It's a matter of not getting sick rather than exploring their reasons for eating in the first place, I guess. Does that make sense? I mean, I could hire a big, strong guy to come punch me in the stomach every time I eat too much or eat something with too much fat in it or whatever, and I'd have the same results. Instead of fixing my issues with food, I'd just basically be living in fear of physical discomfort, and I don't think that's really the best solution. This is especially why I think so many people even GAIN the weight back years after surgery--they never faced their root problems, and once the stomach has regrown, you can still eat as much as before, so you need to face your issues in oder to have long-term success. Again, all my own opinion.

HOWEVER, for those with actual medical problems or who have TRULY tried losing weight sensibly and simply cannot (not just those without willpower, strength, or desire, but those who have actually HONESTLY stuck to a plan 100% and still could not lose for some reason), I think it is an excellent option. I hope that all makes sense without me sounding b!tchy

HI LADIES - I'm back to haunt you, at least a bit for a little while!!!

My 2-cents on the meds & WLS: I think in general people who are overweight are considered to have character flaws and weaknesses rather than health issues. Doctors are VERY happy to treat any illness - diabetes, gall stones, high blood pressure, you name it - with any surgery or meds that will A) make them a profit and B) treat the illness, and it's socially acceptable or even expected that people do so. But if you're overweight, you're just "Lazy" or whatever, and the medical profession refuses to treat it. I thought of myself that way for years, and only recently really discovered that the compulsion has a medical / chemical cause. If people choose to treat any other medical condition with meds, they don't get put down for it, and I think it should be the same with weight issues. I think addressing the problem is the most important thing, not the method. That said, YES, some people abuse it, think it's a quick fix that requires no effort, pop pills like addicts or repeatedly have themselves whacked up to achieve the end, and NO, I don't think that's right. But simply using pills or WLS in and of itself isn't wrong.

I'd have had the lap-band if I could have afforded it because it's not permanant, and it's adjustable, and at some point I would still be totally responsible for my eating & exercize. I would have hoped that it could get me to a point where I was physically able to do more exercize and control it that way. I have used meds a little in the past, and that's how I learned what "normal" feels like. No, I don't want to be addicted or dependent on them, but I don't think it's a sin to have help when it's needed. If I were going into sugar shock I'd darn sure take some insulin and who would critisize me for that?? I used pills 2 years ago for less than 2 months. I still have a bottle around here somewhere, and I wish I'd had them last week to save me from the harm I did then. I couldn't pull a load of explosives into the Wal-mart lot to go grocery shopping, nor could we stop moving while I walked away from the truck. I had my choice of a few fast food joints and my diet went to heck. I had lost 2 pounds, but I gained 3 back in a week. Would I have preferred to maintain at the expense and shame of using a "crutch" for that week??? YOUBETCHA I WOULD HAVE!

Whether people use WLS or meds, there is still a huge challange to gain & maintain good health and permanant weight loss. But certainly I agree that they carry their own health risks, and abuse is abuse of any medical procedure. Both meds and surgery can be dangerous, no denying that, but they are *** edit: are NOT*** evil in and of themselves. ( I meant to say are Not evil...) It's just a personal choice.

By the way, it's fantastic to be back here. I was wiped out by the time we got home, and I'm so glad to have my kitchen back!! Sadly, my neighborhood meat market has gone out of business and I have farther to drive to another - I hate paying more and then having to trim my chicken & meats from the grocery!!! I've been back to Curves twice this week, and will try hard to stay OP today - I promise! Thank you everyone for being here!!!

Also, I adjusted my ticker since my current weight is now my with sneakers weight at Curves (rather than my at home, burfdee suit weight) so I added a few to my starting weight to make them the same... besides, it's a small way to fluff myself up, even if I don't deserve it

Hello chickies!

A stimulating discussion...I had to join in.

I have considered WLS a time or two. Never seriously. Why? Because I LOVE FOOD! I can't imaging living my life never able to sit down and eat a normal meal with my friends and family. Never going out for happy hour, never going to a restaurant...why bother? If there was a magic pill that would miraculously make me thin, I'd take it. But the consequences must be weighed carefully.

I know a couple people who are considering WLS. One man weighs every bit of 500 lbs, is diabetic, and I doubt he'll ever lose weight any other way. He's had a problem getting it paid for and some other health problems that have prevented it. My best friend is the other. She recently developed diabetes. Her dr. says losing weight would likely cure it. She isn't that large, but all her wieght is in her abdomen...which everyone likely knows is worse. She's also had a mild heart attack...at 39 years old. Yet, I see her eat and it makes me crazy. Being diabetic, having a heart problem, I've never even heard her talk about weight loss other than to say she can't do it without surgery. She eats anything she wants, often "forgets" to test her blood sugar. In an effort to shock her into taking better care of herself I once asked her "What will your daughter (15 years old) do if you die." She responded, "You'll take care of her." Maybe she should have WLS - maybe it would fix her health problems and the mere fact she couldn't eat poorly anymore would get her on track. But the fact that she may have it without ever trying to lose weight with any seriousness pisses me off no end!

Brandnewme: You are NOT like my friend. If you choose WLS, I'm sure it will be because it is the best option and you will have made the attempt to lose weight and get healthy without it! Under those circumstances, you are to be commended, not condemed, for your choices.

As always, Catherine, your posts hit home. I've always said, "if I can lose the weight I'll keep it off." I've always said that. Every time I dieted and lost weight. Seeing how I started this last weight loss journey at 328, my highest ever, clearly I didn't keep it off. This is my fear. That even if I make it down to 190, it'll creep back on. I have lost 40 lbs three times in my life. I can't remember weighing less than 185...for a few weeks following removal of a 20 lbs ovarian cyst....then I gained it back in fat and was back to 205. I know this time it is a lifetime struggle. I will always have to watch what I eat. I will always have to weigh myself and go back OP if it starts creeping back on. Acknowledging this is what makes this time different for me than from all the other times I've decided to lose weight.

The other thing you said, "I will pray that your holidays are uneventful but satisfying. For everyone I wish that they receive enough. I am learning to be satisfied with just enough, and not more." also rings so true for me. Perhaps it is a function of being older, but I have learned something over the years...excitement is overrated. The world today always seems to demand "something more". People want more than they have and they want it NOW. People want their lives to be eventful and exciting and interesting and perfect. Nothing wrong with that...but I feel, especially as it comes to this journey of weight loss, that a person must learn to be happy with "just enough". They need to learn that "just enough" is perfect. I think that's the key to my ability to lose this time around. My life is comfortable. I am content...with my job, with my marriage, with my life.

So...my Holiday wish to you all is...may your life be filled with contentment and peace.

If I don't post again before the weekend...Happy Hanukah Julee and Merry Christmas to everyone else!

I'm feeling the same way -- and as I'm getting ready to turn 40 might also be considered "older". I think that wanting food NOW has been part of my problem in the past and that there's something to be said for "just enough". There will be times when having something special is the right thing to do, but I think it's got to be rare for me to succeed!

I was reading a thread on the main support board with people talking about what holiday goodies they are eating secretly. I haven't YET eaten any, because I haven't been around any (no parties and no visits and no officemates bringing in food)! [does that get a happy smilie or a sad smilie?!] And I'm okay with that. Now, when I am confronted with them, I hope to perhaps at most have a taste.

Every other time when I lost weight I battled with myself much more over what I should and shouldn't have. This time around I am much less likely to indulge, but also less likely to beat myself up when I do.

Great posts, everyone!

Well this surgery thing, I considered a lapband but at £6,000 it would total our savings. I would never have a permanent surgery, but I expect to have some (lots?) of lose skin removed at some point in the future. Though it seems safer to lose it naturally rather than have an op. with all of those other risks involved, clots, infection, bad/ugly scars, lumps of scar tissue, DEATH from anaesthesia (sp?) we all get the picture.

Dolphin girl, I laughed at you SLUG remark, my hubby calls me a lame slug when I'm feeling ill or low. I get him back for it tenfold though!!!!

hope you are all ok, or getting there,
bye,
sharon.

I did want to say something about loose skin. That is a creeping fear in the back of all of our minds. I have lost weight from the top down. Right now I am basically a tight 5XL from the waist down and between a 1-2XL on top. My top half has tightened up pretty well, but I’ve been worried about my bottom half. I am noticing though that it is starting to tighten some. I just try to remember what I read on this trainer’s web site. Pinch the back of your hand. That is how thick skin is. What I have hanging on my legs, lower abdomen and under arms isn’t loose skin. It is honeycombed fat that has lost its infrastructure. I am still convinced that loose skin is about % of body fat. I remember seeing pictures of POW camp and holocaust camp survivors. Their skin was tightly stretched across them. Some of those guys were older and had been overweight too in the beginning. I’m sure they lost weight pretty fast, but you see no hanging skin. Every show that I have watched on people having skin surgery, they always do some liposuction along with it. If you are done losing weight, lipo wouldn’t be necessary. So, I am remaining hopeful on that front. I often say that I feel like I am some kind of strange science experiment at this point. I had my gallbladder removed in 1981, and the old surgery left a scar about 6 inches long right under my ribs on the right side. That scar is now 4-5” lower than it used to be and slightly more towards the middle of my stomach. Talk about weird when I realized that. It even freaked my doctor out. I’m just hoping I don’t have to have my engagement ring sized down again before the wedding. Speaking of which, I’ve got to get back to sewing this gown thing.

This is who I am:

I started gaining weight when I began menstruating at age 11, even though I was extremely active and athletic. I have polycystic ovary syndrome and my hormones have always been screwed up and always will be (plus I'm glucose intolerant). I have accepted the fact that I will probably NEVER be "thin," "skinny," or whatever you want to call it ("normal").

I CAN and DO:

Exercise ~ it's good for my heart, lungs, etc.

Watch what I eat ~ it keeps me from getting bigger, even if I don't see myself getting smaller. Plus it prevents a number of diseases (like clogging up my arteries).

I do all these things to have a good quality of life. I do them so I can walk and still be active.

AND...

I am doing everything humanly possible to be healthy WITHIN MY POWER.

I would not have the surgery and I wouldn't expect another human being on this Earth to carve their body for ME (like people criticize and condemn us for being overweight). There have been instances where I have almost let these people with their criticisms make me throw up my food or be compulsive about it (almost eating disorder level). They are not worth it. I WILL NOT abuse myself for them!

We all kick butt because we KEEP COMING BACK. Even if I fall off the wagon, I can come here and you guys (without knowing it) put me right back on it. We're not perfect and neither are the skinny people. But we do kick butt!

I soooo needed to hear all of your comments. I've been kicking myself about not seeing great strides and huge losses. BUT I do a lot every day and so do you!!! We need to remember that guys! Look at all of the great things we are doing and the little hurdles we are jumping! It's like Catherine said, she didn't lose 268 pounds, she lost one pound 268 times! I can walk better than I did a year ago. I can breathe better. I am smaller (no matter how much smaller). I probably take better care of myself and my health and have more body awareness than most thin people do.

We are all making great strides that do not always relate to the scale! Remember that when the needle on the scale doesn't move or someone else is losing faster than you!

Everyone, give yourselves a pat on the back!!! You rock!

Like many of you, I considered WLS. I really thought it was my only option to lose weight and keep it off. However, the 1% mortality rate scared me quite a bit. There are a lot of other negatives as well. My insurance wouldn't pay for it, and I don't have a ton of spare cash lying around. Not being able to eat normally (forever? for a long time?) is a negative as well.

When my dad had his triple bypass this summer, I decided to try something I hadn't before -- go get help from a trainer at a gym. That has worked quite well for the exercise part. It has worked pretty well for the eating part except these past few days when I've struggled, but I am getting back OP. I knew enough about myself to know that it's important for me to be accountable to some one other than family/friend and that while I am well-read, I don't know everything, and sometimes I need some outside expertise.

I still am convinced that I can lose this weight and keep it off and be healthy and active without WLS, and I'm really glad for that. Thanks, Catherine, for the focus on "a day at a time" -- that's very helpful to keep in mind.

Wow guys, what a great bunch of conversation going on. Tashabella, thank you for bringing up that you are better then last year at this time. I will also dwell on that.

I weighed 505 pounds this time last year. I lost 8 pounds by the time I started 3fc. So that is better. I can swim for a long period of time now. If I have to walk far, I can. I feel hopeful now instead of so depressed I can't get out of bed. Largely in part due to you wonderful ladies.


Good to see you back Dolphingirl, Shari and Valerie!

Catherine: Thank you for pointing out to loose 1 pound at a time. It is something I will try to do without stressing about the other billion I have to go. Just the one. Thank you

Blessings to you all,
Dogpal

This is a great conversation. I personally am not for WLS for myself. I thought about it briefly but then I realized that my fat is simply a symptom of other things and until I dealt with those things then I'd probably have the surgery and then gain it right back. As I am losing weight, I'm not just thinking about the food but the emotions that go along with my eating. For me, while I'm at home, I'm fine so long as I have the right stuff in the house. But when I go out, I always wind up eating more than I plan to. So I am learning about myself that in social situations I overeat. I haven't figured out why yet but it's a new awareness that I'm learning from.

But back to WLS, I definitely feel that most people use it as a quick fix and don't really look at the risks of the surgery and whether they are really and truly willing to eat baby size portions of food for the rest of their life. They don't think about the loose skin and the thinning hair. It's not all lollipops and roses but I totally understand that some really do need the surgery.

On another note, Catherine, I must admit, when I saw your starting weight and where you are now I automatically assumed that you must have had WLS. You are a true inspiration to lose the weight on your own. I can't wait to see you on Oprah.