I have a story about wait times ... I had a pt, a 70-ish woman with urinary incontinence. Early in the morning we recieved word that they had a bed for her in a primary care facility with a urologist. Was her husband livid when I had to tell him a short while later that the bed had been taken and she'd have to wait. They didn't seem to care that the 'taker' may have been an accident victim or a transplant recipient.
She did go the next day but I can just imagine the stories at the doughnut shop later!
Often times ... waiting a long time ... is in the eye of the beholder.

We do pay a health tax but it's very little. I'm not getting my T4 out to see for sure how much, but it's not much. And I'm sure I used up my fair share having three babies and their emergency visits, immunizations etc.

Was it a financial hardship one year when I had two kids in casts and one going for daily dressings for a nearly severed toe? Yes!

Through work we have supplemental insurance ... medications, dental, vision, semi-private ... but I pay for part of those too. But I've only had those for a few months. We didn't have anything like that when the kids were growing up.

Yes, our system is flawed too.

SusanB, the lady with neurological problems, that I mentioned in my post above, was having to wait weeks and months for tests that should have been done NOW! I was stunned when I found out people were kept waiting who had life-threatening symptoms like that. It wasn't anything simple like waiting overnight for a bed because of urinary incontinence!

Well, I've been one of those 'deserving' poor with a low paid menial job. And I still didn't expect other people to float my bill for me. I expected to get to school and get out of my low paid menial lifestyle, and did. So maybe it's why I just expect no less of anyone else.

And during this time of low paid menial employment, my daughter needed tubes in her ears. I had no choice but to pay it in small monthly payments. I paid nearly half the bill before I found an organization that helped out with the rest of the cost. I'm thankful they came through and helped, but they did it voluntarily. And that's the same way I think we should all be treated. That we could help voluntarily, if we want to. But not be forced to shoulder others who we may not feel are trying nearly as hard as they could be.

As far as whether one gets better care with insurance or not...I dunno. My son has had the same insurance. I recently changed pediatricians because I simply felt the previous one wasn't being communicative with me. She wasn't taking my concerns seriously. He gets a LOT of colds, for a child who isn't in daycare and constantly messes with his ears. Turns out they could be allergy related and he's seing a specialist in a couple of weeks. The ears could be itching. But the previous doc kept saying it was normal behavior and that his ears were fine. I like his new doc. He talks to me, he explains things to me, he doesn't brush me off. And he's getting the same insurance payments she got.

So like someone mentioned about people not knowing whether they're receiving good care. I think with or without insurance, if you get crappy care, it's not gonna matter either way.

Babenwaiting ... honey ... I wasn't making any kind of corelation between your story and mine. I guess I should have clarified that, yes indeed, we do have some horrific wait times.

Your story is, unfortunately, not rare enough. People often become more and more debilitated while waiting for treatment.

I hope your friend has informed her MP about her ordeal. In fact, I'd like to know how things turned out. Good I hope!

SusanB, I lost touch with this lady with the neurological problems aound the time she was planning her trip to Minnesota to get medical care there. I've always worried about what actually happened with her. She was young, with three small children, and I was amazed that she was waiting weeks for tests that would have been done within hours at an emergency room here in the U. S., whether you had insurance or not. Both systems could surely use improvement, couldn't they? But, with Michael Moore, he always mixes in a little too much of "his fiction" with some of the facts, and confuses the issue. Thanks for your comments!

Abuse of our (United States Of America) system at the top...abuse at the bottom causes our system to be flawed. Many people get hurt...but we don't live in a perfect world.

I have been very fortunate to have always had insurance. I have been very fortunate to have always had good care and great success with several surgeries. I know I am lucky.

I am NOT a Michael Moore fan....I am not saying he doesn't have some good points....but it is easy to spin things the way you want them for your own agenda.

I saw him on Oprah say that Jesus said the way to heaven was to feed the hungry and take care of the sick....that statement is so not true!

I had wanted to see the movie, until I read of some of the inaccuracies and manipulations of the truth, and I realized it's just another piece of propaganda. It doesn't seem to matter any more whether or not a person tells the truth as long as they get to express their opinion.

There are people who aren't able to help themselves for many reasons. My brother-in-law's mother has a terminal brain tumor, but she's been repeatedly turned down for disability (she's worked all of her life, so she's paid into the disability system just like everyone else), unfortunately she's proud, not wanting to tell her very personal business to strangers, and not very savvy about how much detail she needs to go into to prove she cannot work (she thinks she still can, but the tumor is causing seizures that can't be controlled by medications any more). She needs an advocate, but there isn't any system in place that will allow for one. She's not mentally incompetent, just stubborn and proud, so none of her children can really intercede for her One social worker to which she was assigned to help her file for disability agreed that she could work "with epilepsy," and closed out her case because the social worker happened to have epilepsy I guess she did not read the entire file to know that the seizures are not epileptic but caused by a progressive tumor).

I have to admit that I truly felt like almostheaven most of my life. That helping others should be voluntary, not mandatory, and that we should expect people to take care of themselves under most circumstances. I still believe that systems have to be developed to make it easier to be self-reliant, and harder to be victims, but I've seen to many innocent victims of the system to believe that voluntary giving would be any more successful than mandatory. One of the main reasons welfare was developed was because people weren't voluntarily giving enough to help everyone who needed it. What do we do then, let people die in the street?

There are always going to be abuses at the top and bottom. People who find ways to avoid paying the taxes everyone else does, and people who find a way to get benefits to which they're not entitled. Finding ways to reduce the abuses, and avoiding inefficiency wouldn't solve the problem, but sure couldn't hurt.

And while I agree that Michael Moore has twisted Christian doctrine, I don't think that ignoring the plight of the sick and hungry, or having a "let them fend for themselves" attitude is something to be proud of, whatever your religion or lack there of.

COLLEEN ~ I hope you didn't think that I didn't feel we should help the needy...did you?

My statement about Jesus from Michael Moore was meant to show an example of how he twists and spins things.

*Steps on soapbox*

As for people volunteering to help others... MORE people should volunteer, then! there should be a VOLUNTARY tax to help form a universal health care system of sorts! Medical conditions are EXPENSIVE and not everyone can afford to be in good health. The economy SUCKS and good jobs with benefits are difficult to find. A lot of employers PURPOSELY hire people for less than 40 hours (even if it is 35) just so they don't have to offer benefits. Health insurance rates for people with pre existing conditions are COMPLETELY outlandish and often unaffordable!

...and despite starving out of necessity and potentially jeoparadizing my health because I was broke, I've had it off easy compared to so many people - one of my aunts got hospitalized for a week and was given a bill that she still has never been able to pay... one of my friends owes over $100,000 in hospital debt alone because he neglected his health due to poverty... now, he has a good job with benefits (he is a teacher) but is considering filing for bankrupcy because he will never, ever be able to pay off all he owes!

As I said before, I know universal health care would be a two-sided coin... there are positives and negatives to everything... but SOME form of it would be NICE!

*Steps OFF soapbox*

...uh... it isn't?

Ok, I know there isn't a verse in the bible where he explicitly said that word for word, but I DO believe Jesus wants people to do everything in their power to help others, as He went out of His way to do so.

What part of that statement do you disagree with? Out of curiousity... not trying to start an argument.

Off to work here KIDDO...so quickly...Jesus did say to help others! My point was that doing so is not the way to heaven...we don't earn our way there.

Can't explain further because I am heading out...but PM me and I can explain tonight/this week-end.....

I didn't mean to make things complicated here folks.........

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION....WHAT ABOUT SICKO?

read my soapbox rant above your quote - I got back on the subject

Haven't seen it, don't want to see it because it IS Michael Moore.

However, we do have socialized Medicine for some: it's called the VA. I've never heard anything good about the VA (and I have several families members and friends who've used them). Also, try to get a hold of a doc or someone in the pharmacy by phone (ie: when we call from our pharmacy for a transfer/new script). The waiting is horrible along with many misdiagnoses.

My friends from Canada say there's is not good healthcare, either. Also the waiting, docs that don't really care (cuz I'm sure their salaries are what they should be), mis diagnosis again and you have to pay for your drugs as well.

I thought our ancestors moved away from Europe, esp. England, due to heavy taxation. I, for one, don't want my taxes to be so heavily increased to get this type of healthcare.

And I also don't mind helping out by helping to pay for Medicaid for those who need it because it was set into place for short-term use. From the pharmacy standpoint, I just see too much abuse of that system and that part of it really chaps my hiney.

I think if they started by fixing Medicaid and the VA, I might change my mind.

Just my 2 cents...

Maybe I'll watch sicko by the sicko, but only if it's for free cuz I'm not giving a dime to that man.

I'm thinking that a better form of healthcare would be to sponsor EMPLOYER healthcare for those employers that don't provide it or to part-time workers. That way, it's not footing the bill for those who won't work. Then, healthcare to the elderly or disabled, because they can't work. But people who simply won't work shouldn't be getting anything free until they can prove that they're willing to put something into what they hold their hand out for.

Part of the original post question was about prevention. I, for one, would find that hard to pay for. And I think that's human. Think of all the folks you know that don't go to the dentist until something hurts.

I don't do this very often but I'm going to stick up for the doctors. I've been at this for a long time and can only think of maybe one instance where a doctor was primarily responsible for long waits (I'm talking weeks or a month). This doc thought that if he spaced office appts far enough apart, he'd have time to spend time with new clients, call specialists and make his notes. He got waaaay behind and clients were furious!

Bed availability and time slots are the biggest problem in Ontario (IMHO) and for that we need space, doctors, nurses ... not more managment, not more funded inquiries, not more government interference .... BUT ... then you run into hospitals being run like businesses and I'm not real excited about that either.
Who knows?!

As a nurse, I have heard one too many stories about people losing their homes, life savings, etc. because they are so unfortunate to have an illness. These are people WITH insurance. I have a friend who is an ER nurse who hurt her back (at work) who has lost EVERYTHING, due to this injury. The insurance company has fought her every step of the way, and the hospital she works at has basically thrown her away like a piece of garbage. She has had surgery after surgery...infection after infection...only to be told she needs to be put in a nursing home to recover. THIS WOMAN IS IN HER FORTIES! She is too sick to fight, and is drowning in the paperwork. After seeing all of this first hand I am convinced our health care system is insane!

As for paying for people that don't or can't work....here's my take on it. MOST people can and do work. Most people want to lead a sucessful and productive life. We tend to focus on the smaller percent of people who don't. Unfortunately, poverty is a cycle that is not easily broken.