Well said, aphil!

I agree totally Aphil. As you pointed out I am on WW - I am not starving myself, I am eating well balanced meals, I do my own cooking, I don't buy prepackaged or pre processed meals and don't eat junk food often., I don't beat myself up if I have some chocolate now and again or gain a pound or two back. I have a healthy body image and I feel comfortable in my own skin. I am doing this for myself and for health reasons, it has nothing to do with media manipulation or imagery.

I understand where you are coming from. as for converts that wasn't my goal. rather my goal was to show another way that is seldom advocated because really the information is almost new.

I know several people on different diets, one is on a insulin resistance diet, another on the atkins. the one on atkins lost quite abit of weight. But I hope his health is not adversly affected since he doesn't eat any of fruit and I am guessing not alot of vegies.

Also from what I read about low or no carbs diets,(except the vegies carbs) they put the body in a state of ketosis. Isn't that what diebetics go into when their sugar is all messed up?

I read too can't remember exactly it was a while back, maybe it was the fat instinct book, I read so many medical articles from different doctors and such I forget where I got it exactly anyway this ketosis is considered a metabolic emergency. It also suppresses the appetite (and who wouldn't want that?)

But it cannot be sustained for a life time. ketosis is a temporary way for the body to fuel the brain. I would love to see long term studies on the effects of ketosis on the brain.by the way.

so as carbs are consumed the body goes out of ketosis and I can only make a educated guess on what that means.

As for the zone at least there you can eat fruit.

the friend who is doing the insulin diet did the zone so many times before giving it up to do the insulin thing diet. I don't know how she is doing as I haven't seen her for awhile.

I know she lost some weight, don't know how much. And for telling you what I learned both through study, reasoning on things, personal experience what I have seen in others etc,

I get enthusiatic about something and have to share. I even told my freinds the things I have been telling you and they look at me like I am insane.

I am sure if I had lived back in the middle ages and discovered that the earth was round and the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa I am sure they would of thought me insane too for going against the grain.

So if I seem dogmatic, that is my enthusiam coming through, and this is something i find hard to control for some reason, being overly enthusiatic about stuff, not just the naturally thin principles.

As for me when I talk diets I am referring the eat less thing. it doesn't have to be a structured diet advocated by a doctor or some book.

you know eat less than you burn thing. It would work if it were not for the body's biological survival instincts in those who survival instincts are very strong. Just if you all disagree with me that is okay.

you have to decide what is best for you. I just thought the purpose of message boards was to share what insights knowledgte expereinces etc we have gained.

I still have not lost faith in the naturally thin principles because they make too much biological sense. (by the way I have and still love the medical field and studying it, even tho I will never be a vet or doctor, still gives me joy, so I have the scienticfic mentality.)

I wanted so bad to be a horse vet. But my life took a different turn which is okay. if I hadn't I would of never met my wonderful husband.

Also I was not condemning your choices of ways to control weight, that would be intellectually insulting. that is not my intention.

I guess what I am saying is keep an open mind. ONe of my favorite activities before finally being able to get on the net was sitting at the library reading all the diet books I could. I read the following that I remember

The Serotonin connection.
The fat instinct.
Stop the insanity book by susan powter
The Obesity Handbook for doctors (I think that was the title) a large green medical book)
The Zone,
A book written by doctors on what they know about obesity and the hormones and how they effect weight regulation. I took alot of notes from that book. I have the name written in the notes if I can find it.

I read a women's medical journal, didn't get much info on weight but I found alot of other good stuff.
Eat more weight less
Carb addicts diet
I can't remember the rest. To give you an idea of the reading i did there were two rows just on diets and weight control and obesity studies. So I would guess I read almost half of them. Of course that doesn't mean I understood all of them LOL

Of course there was the experiences I had and watched in others. you can learn alot watching how others react to things and listening to their stories.

I don't usually do this but I am calling you out on this Antidieter.
I went to the website you post on and read your post about 3FC.

Interesting how you are not looking for converts yet you had previously posted the link to that site and you said in your post over there that you had found one person who was going to buy the books you suggested. If you are just sharing information then why do you care if someone else buys the books or not?

Oh, and nice comments on the people here that are "dieting" and I quote " as I was reading the posts, the losses and the advice on maintaining I kept thinking you poor souls after all the struggle they will ultimatley fail and all the effort would have been in vain."

Excuse me but we are making our own lifestyle choices just as you are! Many of us are doing just fine on our programs and are losing and maintaining and are getting healthier and happier and feel our efforts are not "in vain".

I for one am not a "poor soul". I am happy with myself as a person regardless of what size I am and am happy with the results of my good eating habits and exercise habits and I resent your comments on that other site.

You seem to be preaching acceptance but it appears that you can't accept other people's ideas and lifestyle choices.

Something else I found rather interesting is that you (Antidieter) who has basically bashed dieting (by which I assume you mean watching what you eat, exercising more, making permanent lifestyle changes) in NUMEROUS threads during your very short time here...you began a thread in this very forum titled "the diet I am trying".

Am I the only one who sees something, uh, contridictory here???

"...the information is almost new." That's what you stated above. The book you are continually advocating, "How to Become Naturally Thin by Eating More" was published (according to Amazon.com) in 1990. By my reckoning, that's 13 years ago (actually I think it's a bit older than that - I recall that I bought it from Rodale Publications back in the late 80's - might even still have it in one of my boxes somewhere - as I recall, like many weight loss/fitness related books whose authors are shooting for the best-seller lists, there are grains of truth sprinkled throughout - generally these truths are well known, but it's given a different spin in order to catch the potential purchaser's eye.

Again from Michael Fumento's book Fat of the Land:
I am oh so aware that folks tend to get rather, um, defensive about whatever particular diet plan they happen to be 'on'. Almost as though it were a religion or something. Shoot, if it works for them - and more importantly, if they're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle FOR LIFE in that way - more power to them! I myself do a combination of weight training, cardio, dressage and hunt seat riding, along with eating clean foods 90% of the time, with a couple of "free" treats or meals tossed in during the week. But others here do Pilates, Yoga, whatever, and that works for them. Great!

More later - gotta hit the shower.

And no...ketosis is not what happens when a diabetic's blood sugar gets messed up. It takes the body a few days of low carbing for the body to go into ketosis...it really has nothing to do with the blood sugar at all. Ketosis happens when the body burns fat as fuel when it runs out of carbohydrate stores...
Your blood sugar levels are a totally different thing-and they are tested differently. You can test your ketosis/or lack of with a urine test...and you check your blood sugar by pricking your finger and checking the blood. In ketosis you are checking for ketones in the urine.
Your blood sugar as a diabetic must be kept at a certain level-too many simple carbs such as sugar, pastries, white bread, and so on will cause it to rise rapidly...which is why candy or a dose of fruit juice is used to quickly raise low blood sugar. Your blood sugar is tested throughout the day numerous times-so if you are tending to that properly and following your diabetic diet-it is impossible for you to go into ketosis. Too high or low of blood sugar can cause anything from "the shakes" to a deadly coma...and repeated blood sugar problems such as someone who doesn't follow their diet are subject to heart failure among other things-which is what killed my aunt. She didn't take following her diet, doing her exercise, and checking her blood sugar as seriously as she should have...
I do not disagree that you have read a lot of medical books and diet books...what I do think is that maybe you internalize certain passages that you personally agree with, and totally forgo the things you read that you do not agree with...and that you quote things to fit your own purpose and need at the time-a lot like people do with religion.
The "naturally thin" book you quote from a lot is not "new information"-actually it is outdated-over 10 years old-and this book is already out of print according to Amazon.com.
Aphil
I also wanted to add a little info about Atkins...I am not on Atkins, but it is a common perception that you eat all meat and eggs and hardly no fruits and veggies...you made a comment about that above. It is another example of "not getting all the information"-and you are not the only person who thinks this. On Atkins-you are only on the all meat/eggs/cheese induction part of the diet for a few weeks...some people who don't finish the book stay on this the entire time and therefore cannot stick with it for life. Successful "lifers" on Atkins know that after the induction period-you slowly add in plenty of lower carb fruits and veggies in...such as cantalaupe and honeydew melon, most kinds of berries, and almost all veggies-save for corn because it has a lot of carbs. It is only the very beginning that the fruits and veggies are very limited-just to kick off the ketosis process. And you do not stay in ketosis for the entire time...only during the weight loss segment...not for maintanence. You raise your carb intake a such to get out of ketosis, but not high enough to start gaining weight back.

Once again, Aphil, you have said it well.

Antidieter - please do not presume to know about something you're not educated on. I do follow the atkins lifestyle and as Aphil stated, I eat lots of veggies as well as melon and berries. I also normally eat meat once a day. As for ketosis, you're confusing it with a condition called ketoacidosis, which is indeed dangerous. Ketosis means your body is producing ketones - a byproduct that is produced when your body is using fat for fuel. Please, get your facts straight before you start attacking the lifestyle choices of others.

Thanks.

Just adding another two cents to this thread...

Ketosis: I understand that many doctors treating kids for epilepsy often put them on ketogenic diets specifically to get them into ketosis. I myself have done what is called "Carb cycling" in the past - zig-zagging my carbs where I have high-carb days and low-carb days, which can often be helpful in getting past a plateau...

Eat More/Weigh Less and all that ilk: I've not only read a lot about this theory, I've done it. Basically the idea is a simple one - there's a book out called Picture Perfect Weight Loss that illustrates it in nice big color photos actually - the author shows that you can eat a LOT more of certain foods (generally what I term as "clean" foods and Dr. Phil calls in his excellent new book "high-yield nutrition") than others - check out the cover which shows how much 'clean' food you can eat for the same calories as a bagel and cream cheese:


That's basically "eat more weigh less" in a nutshell. Whatever way you do it, it comes down to calories - calories ingested vs. calories expended - along with the QUALITY of your caloric intake.

If you (or anyone out there reading) is interested, I'd like to list some books I highly recommend about PERMANENT weight loss. Be advised that there are NO miracle diets in these books, just plain common sense.

Fat of the Land - The Obesity Epidemic and How Overweight Americans can Help Themselves by Michael Fumento. A bit dated (published in 1997) but still has quite a lot of great info, not to mention a VERY entertaining read. (I'm hoping that he comes out with an updated edition one of these days - IMO this book came out five years too soon...)

Thin for Life by Anne Fletcher. This book PROVES that YES you CAN lose weight PERMANENTLY. Dr. Fletcher talked to weight-loss 'masters' who lost 30 pounds or more and have kept it off for a minimum of three years - I believe she found most of them through the National Weight Control Registry whose website is here: http://www.lifespan.org/services/bmed/wt_loss/nwcr/ The NWCR's home page states as follows:
Diary of a Fat Housewife by Rosemary Green. I have conflicts about this book - different emotions each time I read it. Rosemary Green was a slim beauty queen as a teenager, but after she married and had babies, gradually went up and down the '**** scale' up to 320 pounds. It took her over 20 years but she DID get her weight down to 135 and from what I've heard has kept the weight off up through today (I believe she does a radio show in Oregon nowadays). If you can find it, I recommend getting the 1996 paperback version over the hardcover since it has a very good afterward/update that is not in the first edition.

And adding this NEW addition to my list...

The Ultimate Weight Solution: The 7 Keys to Weight Loss Freedom by Dr. Phil McGraw. I just started reading this over the weekend (after waiting for the library to get it) and I'm definitely going to be purchasing my own copy - Dr. Phil does a great job putting the mental part of weight loss (IMO the hardest part) into perspective and breaking things down. I'm sure many people who read it will fling it aside, since there is no miracle plan in it - he says that right from the get-go - and there's quite a lot of WORK involved - journaling, getting inside yourself and WHY you live an unhealthy lifestyle. But as Pa Ingalls said in Little Town on the Prairie: "Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was anything else worth having."

compared to the dieting concept it is new. diets ideas started back in the 1800's. it really took off I would say in the last fify years. that is only an educated guess.

In this case I am referring to eat less thing, the diets being advocated of around 1500, this is a figure that some of my friends are vying for to lose.

here is alink I think you would like. TCS tech central station, I was lurking on the ttap and the link address is there I can't remember which post it was recent one tho.

if one finds a diet idea or pattern of life that works for them then I say go for it. but I know too that there are those who are frustrated, (maybe not on your forum maybe? )and who struggle and diet and work out and yet can't figure out why they end up fatter in the long run?

they would benefit by the studies in that tsc site. it was educational.

And I apologize if I am coming off as attacking anyone's choices of how to improve their health or lose weight. But by my giving you other information that you may or may not be aware of does give you another choice usually not advocated in the media.

I thought it would help others understand why some do not manage to get weight off permanently through dieting efforts. maybe some compassion would have been forthcoming, but don't misconstrue that I think any of you lack compassion.

but society in general, and the media really bash overweight people, expecially obese.

Yet all you've managed to do is underscore how little reason people have to actually believe you.You've also managed to show how little you know about the things you express concern over. There are two different conditions: Ketosis and ketoacidosis. Just because they have some of the same letters don't make them the same thing.I would like to think that admirable, but what is appropriate is for folks to share personal experiences of success. That is a motivator. Personal experiences of failure, without scientific evidence that that failure would be visited on everyone, is counter-productive, both to the aim of providing support, and to adding credibility to your own exerpeinces.Don't flatter yourself. Copernicus had volumes of scientific data providing his points.

i have myself self lost around 90lbs in 18months. i did lose 100 but after withdrawing myself from my diet and allowing myself to stabbalise out i gaine some weight back which was to be expected after 18months although i'm not on a "diet" i'm still eating the same as i was when i was on it. i.e its no longer a weightloss tool its my diet. the word diet means your daily intake of food over a period of time. what is commonly reffered to as a diet is a weightloss tool as i call it. its a short term alteration in your consumption of food to achieve a loss in weight. why people don't keep this weight off is cos they don't then alter there life to suit there new weight. they stop using there tools and revert back to the old ways if it made you fat before it'll make you fat again. my diet as it now is started as a weightloss tool but i now live by it. the basic rule is healthy food choices fresh fuits veg and fresh meat and fish. lots of excersise. i maintained my weight since march by doing this and i see no way how if i stick to it it'll start to creep on. i know the metabolism slows with age but at only 21 i got a few years untill i need to worry bout that.

and i'm not annorexic. annorexia nervousa???(please correct if wrong) is a mental illness where the sufferer doesn't eat. or consumes very little. they eventually die from malnutrition. i am not annorexic. i know this because 1. i'm not losing weight and i still have 22% body fat. and 2. because i'm maintianing my weight at 230ish consuming in excess of 2500 calories a day. cos i burn it all up. i agree that weightloss tools (diets) are bad and usually fail. because they are used incorrectly. most people who have successfully lost and kept off for a period of time havn't used a weightloss tool of any description they have changed there life. i'm sure the big losers here who have kept the weight off have infact changed the way they eat drastically compared to what they ate before they lost weight. its not about shedding using a weightloss device and stopping cos thats yo-yo dieting. its about healthy food choices regular excersise and not passing hte buck complaining you are special and can't do it. everyone can it just requires will power and hard work. and if people are not succeeding then in there hearts they really can't want to lose the pounds that much

i think the expression is shot down in flames

Congratulations on your success!

Indeed: The main challenge in this realm is adopting new, healthy behaviors. While you may employ various sets of eating behaviors in your diet as you reduce your level of risk, the eating behaviors you practice while losing, say, the last 20-35 pounds, should very well be the ones you practice for life.

Precisely. Such short-term alterations are appropriate for those at greater risk, but all responsible weight-loss regimens include transition to regimens that are more appropriate at lower risk, for patients who reach that level of weight-loss achievement. For example, Atkins has "Induction" and then an ongoing regimen, and I think it even has a third regimen, specifically for transition to maintenance and maintenance.

Using a weight-loss regimen improperly, i.e., only using the regimen intended to address the highest risk when that risk isn't present, or never transitioning to the regimens intended for the lower risk states, is like using a hammer to apply a screw. It's just plain incorrect practice.

Heheh... Yup! I just hit 40, and what I'm doing is racheting up the duration of exercise. Eventually, I, like my hard-working ancestors before me for centuries, will simply reduce intake as I get older and my metabolism slows.

Or perhaps never really applied with the intention to live heathfully for life in the first place.

That's not clear to me. While it is true that most people who have lost a significant amount of weight and kept it off long-term haven't used any particular diet regimen, it is clear that most have used some diet regimen, and to deny that even those who supposedly "craft their own" aren't heavily influenced by what they know with regard to other diets is a bit ludicrous.

With only minor exception (i.e., PCOS), I agree with you completely.

thankyou and congrats on you managing to keep the 100 off. i still got a few to lose when i get round to kicking myself in to making another change to my lifestyle lol.

what i meant about people with success not using any weightloss tools. isn't that they havn't used them. its that they have used them as lifestyle changes not as short term fixes it was a step in a successfull management of weight. we as "fat" people. are more efficient at storing fat for emergency times. which back in the day would have been a genetic gift but today is not so good as there is no need for it. so we must fight the fight against our gift in order to preserve our health. hence we have to manage our weight. not fix it.

with regards to PCOS??? i have no idea what it is lol. so i wont try and say anything the only possible problem with weightloss i know of is being diabetic my mother has recently last 5 years become diatbetic i keep telling her she needs to excersise but she uses her "illness" as she puts it as an excuse not to do anything. but there is science behind excersising to controll it. but she wont accept it. lol i just tell her to eat what she wants to get fatter and die so i can have the house we have a very warped sense of humour in our family. plus we're british which don't hlep much

The story isn't clear with respect to PCOS. Many afflicted with PCOS claim it utterly prohibits effective weight-management, while others disagree. I haven't heard enough from either side to be compelled to support either perspective.