that is what I am saying...

the "naturally thin" are like non-alcoholics - controlling emotional eating isnt important because it doesnt hurt them

the naturally heavy have to try to resolve some of that emotional eating because it is damaging to us.

the author seems to be saying that since we alll eat emotionally and some are thin and some are fat, that emotional eating doesnt have to be addressed

for me, personally, eating isn't always a thing like addiction, eating FOOD isnt the problem. All food isnt like alcohol. Most food would be like asking an alcoholic to drink water or milk. I've never triggered a binge by eating a salad. But eating emotionally can be, that is when things spiral OOC.

The DIFFERENCE is that food is food and that is the trigger. For alcoholics, all drinks aren't triggers, only alcohol is. For people who have food addiction issues a banana is the same as a candy bar in that it is both food and both can be "used" for emotional reasons.

I do not believe the same can be said for water versus vodka.

You can't "use" water just like you can't "use" air. But ALL foods are suseptible to being "used."

And that is my point.

It's different for different people, I guess. :) Bananas are not triggers for me. Nor is broccoli. Nor is brown rice. Nor is boneless/skinless chicken breast. As long as I stick to foods I know aren't triggers for me, I'm okay. But I always know that those "other foods" are there, so every day it's a conscious decision not to eat them. I'm 100 days abstinent today, and I'm abstinent because every single day I chose to avoid my trigger foods. I stick to foods that I cannot "use". As an alcoholic sticks to drinks that they can't use. Different strokes, I guess. :dizzy:

Something that is confusing here with comparing obesity to addictions is that for some obese people, food actually is an addiction (compulsive overeating), whereas for others it is not. Kind of like how someone can be skinny and not eat much food, but they are not the same as someone who has anorexia. You don't have to be a compulsive overeater to get fat, nor do you have to be anorexic to be skinny. If you do have an eating disorder, then it is much tougher to lose or gain weight.

So I don't know if it is fair to compare alcoholism to obesity. Maybe it is more fair to compare it to compulsive overeating disorder.

Not all obese people are addicted to food or are compulsive overeaters. But, you are more likely to find an obese person that is addicted to food than a thin person (unless they are in recovery).

I think that addiction to food is just as possible as addiction to alcohol. Check out the section Overeaters Anonymous in Chicks in Control. It works on the same premise.

I am not saying that all people who are overweight are addicted to food, but some might have a "food problem" just as most college students who go out partying once a week and drink to get drunk might not be alcoholics per se but might have a "drink problem."

That is GREAT! :carrot:


As for the tigger food issue---- I HAVE totally binged out on fruit, vegetables and lean protein. So, it is entirely possible.

I've been fooling around with polls in the General Diets section. Over half of participants name psychology as a cause for their weight ... with a strong vote for a combination including genetics and environment.

I think it's interesting to ask people, but I'm not sure we are all aware of the degree to which biology, especially, affects us. Am I hungry because of emotional/psych issues, or because my chemicals are out of whack? To what extent does my biology affect my psychology? It's impossible for me to know.

About once a week I get an email from Bob Greene's Your Best Life. Here was the advice today:

So Heather? do you think folks are taking blame when it ain't necessarily so?

We get pretty wound up about folks blaming their weight on outside sources and not taking responsibility, however .... I guess there could be folks who blame themselves when other factors are afoot here.

I definitely think people are afraid or embarrassed to acknowledge that there may be physical, biological causes for obesity. We're all here at 3FC because we're committed to doing something about our excess weight. Since (at this time) science and medicine have very little to offer us to assist in our lifelong struggle, we all realize that it boils down to personal responsibility for weight management. And no one here wants to be perceived as making excuses and not stepping up to take personal responsibility.

You're right, Susan, people here do get "pretty wound up" about blaming weight on outside causes and posters are gun-shy about saying something that in the least bit implies that they're not totally, 100% responsible for their weight problems. As a matter of fact, most people go to great lengths to call themselves names and beat themselves up for being overweight. :(

I think both a belief in genetic/biochemical causes for obesity and a sense of personal responsibility for weight management can co-exist in harmony. One deals with causation; the other deals with how we fix the problem. I hope we all recognize that it's overly simplistic to say "I'm fat because I eat too much." The larger question is: why? Why do we want to eat more? Why do our bodies return to a setpoint? What makes us hungry? What shuts down appetite? And science has much to offer in answering those key questions. :)

I'm not at all ashamed to say that I believe that I was born with a tendency for obesity. Obviously I've taken responsibility for dealing with it, but I truly believe it's not a fair game we're playing. The genetic deck is stacked against some of us and it undoubtedly makes weight management much, much harder for some of us than others. Seriously, does anyone still think that it's a level playing field when it comes to weight?

I think the reason that, as a group, we claim total responsibility for our weight, is that it gives us a feeling of being in control. If we let ourselves dwell on the possibility that some outside factor is responsible for our weight, we feel powerless.

I totally agree.

Also I agree that it is not a level playing field, but that is true of lots of life issues.

Today, I've been thinking about the emotions that come from overeating. Not the ones that trigger the overeating, but the ones that happen after the eating is done.

While I was on the medicine that clearly changed my appetite and food cravings, as the weight built up I began to experience emotions I had never felt before.

I began to blame myself for not being able to resist the hunger pains or the desire to continue eating sweets until I had finished a whole 1 pound bag of M&M's in one sitting. I started to have very negative thoughts about my will power and strength of character.

As a thin person, I never had those feelings when I indulged in a second piece of cake or ate far more than my share of cookies. But as a fat person, I held myself to a different standard.

Meg talked about personal responsibility verse biochemistry in her recent post. During my fat period, I felt personally responsible for all the food I consumed, but I don't know if I could have done much to control it. The biochemistry of my medication made me feel as though I was constantly starving. I had a biological need or drive like I had never before to eat much, much more.

And I knew cognatively that I was making wrong food choices. I was the one going to the grocery store and buying the big bags of chocolates knowing I would eat them all that night. I could have opted to buy a big bag of carrots instead (and they would have all been gone by the next morning).

I knew that the medication was fueling my desires to eat, eat, eat. But I still had very negative emotions about my behavior after I did.

So there were bad feeling about what I had done and the feeling of being out of control, and then there were bad feelings about my appearence.

Now that I'm on the new medication and have lost all the weight, I still sometimes overeat because of boredom or because something just tastes too good or I can't resist one of my trigger foods. But I just don't have those negative feelings when it happens.

I've been very lucky to only experience those feelings for a few short years. My heart goes out to the rest of you who may have felt this way for decades.

Carolyn, I can't thank you enough for sharing your experiences with medications and weight gain/loss. You add a dimension to our discussions that we wouldn't otherwise have. In a way, you were a lab rat for the biochemistry of weight and the results (though painful to you!) are just fascinating.

I DONT want to hear that I am not 100% in control. I try very hard not to beat myself up if I am not perfect. I DETEST when people call themselves names.

But I dont think "learn to be satisfied being fat" is a reasonable thing for me, especially not with my health issues and 2 small children who deserve to have me around for a long time (I know I know, the obesity/=bad health chapter is still coming)

I dont want to hear that I should give up hope and that is what this book seems to be attempting to do.

Ennay, acknowledging that a condition has genetic or biological roots doesn't mean we're not in control. Of course you and I are in complete control of everything we put in our mouths and whether we choose to exercise or not. :)

I don't know if this will make sense to anyone else, but this is how my thinking goes ...

My son has Type 1 diabetes. Was it his fault that he got diabetes? No, it was a genetic tendency that he was born with that was triggered when he was 17 (there's speculation as to what the triggers for diabetes are, but that's not important here).

Does the fact that his condition has a genetic cause absolve him from the responsibility to manage his condition and his health? Of course not! There are things he, as a diabetic, must do every day to stay healthy: monitor his blood sugar levels 5 - 6 times, give himself 4- 6 insulin injections, monitor and limit his carb intake etc. These are things we non-diabetics don't worry about because our pancreases (sp?) handle our insulin needs without any thought or effort from us.

Likewise, I was born with a condition called obesity. It doesn't have a cure yet, so it's my responsibility to manage my condition to stay in optimal health. Certain things are required of me every day: exercise, monitoring of my calorie intake, careful meal planning, ignoring hunger, limiting food intake. It is my personal responsibility to manage my obesity and remain in the best possible health. Normal people don't need to do the things that I do in order to maintain a normal weight.

Regardless of why I became obese, I believe that I am 100% in control of my actions and consequently, my weight. No one and nothing can make me fat again except me. And I tell myself that every day! :D

I think how Meg is talking is a great way to think about this issue. I do believe I did things that made me obese. I guess now I can sense that perhaps the reasons I did some of those things are because of genetic predispositions, but that doesn't mean I CAN'T do something about it. It doesn't mean I'm absolved of responsibility.

When reading Kolata's book, I got the sense that she thought the people in the research study should be happy to lose 10% of their weight and keep it off. I think she sees the biological explanation as more "pre-ordained" -- thus the discussion about the 20-30 pound float, for instance.

I didn't see a lot of hope in the book.

But I DO see a lot of hope on 3fc and especially the maintainers! Yes, we may have biology working against us, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

Oh I agree, I do think there are genetic factors at work as well as environmental...

I just think that is why most people may want to deny those factors exist - while providing a nice excuse for people who dont want to do the work, they also take away some hope for the rest of us.

Plus....well if the author was saying "HEY --yes--you DO have to work harder, but it can be done" that would be one thing. That would actually be a huge relief to a lot of us who have been told it IS only our lack of control that caused our problem. I would like to know it isnt entirely my fault that when I was younger and didn't know better that I didnt do better. (But now that I know better its up to me!)

I just chafe at her...hopelessness. It feels more to me like her book is saying "you are genetically screwed, your best bet is to learn to live with it and be happy".

I completely agree. :yes: This is the exact feeling that I got from the book. It was actually a bit of a downer to read.

For me at least ... and I'm learning that nothing I feel is new or unique when it comes to my body ... pride has a huge influence. "I caused the probelm, but I have overcome!"

Although I would like to take credit for overcoming ... it is a comfort to know that perhaps it wasn't all my fault. If I have to battle to stay slim, at least I know I'm not just battling a willpowerless me.

Is there a difference in how this factor is viewed by those how have lost weight as opposed to those who are actively losing?

Count me also as one who found the book discouraging regarding losing weight permanently.

**DISCLAIMER**
Haven't read the book, but have been keeping my eye on quotes from it. Over 4 years ago, I shed 80+ pounds and I have kept it off. It isn't rocket science, but it IS a refusal to return to my old food habits. So I don't buy into the "you can't keep the weight off" message. I can. I have. I will continue to do so. (have I mentioned I'm stubborn and opinionated and those are my GOOD qualities? :D)
Most of us drift back into bad old food habits for one reason or another and BLAM! The weight comes back. This shouldn't be a surprise - those bad old food habits contributed to most of our weight gain in the first place - but all too often, it is. I'm thinking mindless eating, caving into "just one bite won't hurt" and that most specious of reasoning, "I've been so good, I DESERVE <insert junk food here>" and an increase in stress are common factors in the "here I am again-obese" :(
Well, for far too many of us, just one bite WILL hurt! AND we need to stop using food as anesthesia when we are emotionally upset. Most of all, if we have been good, we DESERVE to continue to eat a healthy, balanced diet which does not include fast food, transfats, and packaged low carb dinners. When we are the MOST stressed is precisely when we need to stick to our healthy eating because eating cr** will make us feel WORSE, not better
Buy fresh
Buy local
Make the food choices that are best for you
Laugh every day. Life is short. ;)
PS. Don't you think the best revenge is to show the author it IS possible to shed weight and keep it off? :D

My DH comes from a family in which all but he are morbidly obese and he is "just" obese. Was normal weight as an adult until he hit 40.

He has, at 46, finally started to take charge of his weight and health. He is not doing this by dieting so far but by changing bad habits he's had for the last 5 or so years. He's lost 12 lbs. in 7 weeks.

If I had bought this book before he started changing his life I don't think he would have even tried. I am not going to show it to him as I think it would depress and demoralize him instantly.

Yes, there is a genetic component to overweight IMHO and the author makes a reasonable case for a biological cause as well. But I think cultural/environmental factors largely outweigh (pardon me) these. And we can control those.

I think a lot of people regain their lost weight not because of thier biology but because they change only their weight, not the factors that caused them to gain the weight. I believe you have to do both to sucessfully keep the weight off.

Dagmar


He's lost 12 lbs. in