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aerotigergirl 02-05-2008 02:28 PM

Are you embarrassed?
 
Does anyone else feel self-conscious about people finding out that you're doing WW (or that you're trying to lose weight at all)?

A couple of nights ago, my friend and I went out to dinner at Chili's (their Guiltless Grill is actually pretty good, and moderate in points). I took out my little WW journal and was writing down the points, and just then the waitress arrived with our food. I felt like I'd been caught with my pants down! :o

Then, on Superbowl Sunday, we were spending time with friends who (meaning well) kept on offering me pizza...and chips and salsa...and other various yumminess.... But I knew that I shouldn't, so I kept declining... I felt embarrassed, though, because they kept encouraging me to enjoy the food and I kept declining...:p

Trying to get healthy is certainly nothing to be ashamed about, so why am I so scared for people to know about what I'm doing? Is it just that I don't want people to know because then if I slip-up, my personal failure becomes a public failure? Is it because admitting that you want to change your body makes you vulnerable? What are your thoughts?

ChunkyDunker 02-05-2008 03:44 PM

I know what your saying, unfortunately my DH has no shame (he's doing ww with me.) :o. There's just no hiding it for me...just this weekend we went to a family baby shower and he brought his digital scale with him:lol: when it was time to eat he yelled across the house asking me how many "points I wanted to spend" (gawd love him was getting me a plate so I could avoid the buffet!):rofl:

So everyone knows :) and I think it bothers me a little for a few reasons.

First being that people feel free to give me advice on weird diets that I should be using instead, or saying oh I tried ww it didn't work for me blah blah blah :blah:

The other things that bothers me is that I don't mind being held accountable but if I PLAN for and have the points for a desert I don't need anyone saying are you sure you should be eating that? Aren't you on a diet? :nono:

shrinkinglizzy 02-05-2008 05:08 PM

yup, i feel the same way -- whenever I log into the daily plate at work, i get self conscious that someone will see.

I think it's because it's a way of admitting that you need help -- you can't just lose weight on your own. I think that's what embarrasses me. Honestly, though, that's a guess. All I can say is that I understand exactly what you mean!!

S

suitejudyblueeyes 02-05-2008 05:29 PM

Whole-heartedly AGREED.

I HATE telling people I'm on WW or losing weight or what have you. The DH needs to know, of course, because I need to have him by my side on this. I told my sister because I asked her to make sure I went to my first WW meeting just after she got home from hers (I needed the kick in the butt). I told my close friend here in town because she eats terribly and in her company I've really put on weight -- so I had to tell her I can't go on like that anymore.

Otherwise, I haven't *chosen* to tell anyone. My sister told my stepmother... And her first question to me is, "have you tried Alli? I bet it's easier than WW." :rolleyes: My coworkers don't know and I really don't know how I'm going to handle when people start noticing.

I think it's because I'm insecure about my weight/appearance to begin with, and when people know what I'm trying to do, it puts the focus on the very thing I'm trying to get out of the spotlight. I don't want people to think about the fact that I need to lose weight -- I think about that and that's enough. They're just there to work with me, not talk about my body.

I also agree with the not wanting to be "policed" -- Oh, looks like a salad again for Jaime, she's on a diet. (Hrm, what happens if I LIKE the salad I make? I love a good bed of spinach with some blueberries and walnuts on top, ya know.) Oh, Jaime, aren't you on a diet? Should you really eat that cookie? (This cookie is ACCOUNTED for, and it's the only thing that's going to keep me sane this afternoon.) Etc. I hate that. No one seems to get it's all about balance, not about deprivation. :rolleyes:

Then there's also the valid point that's been brought up regarding failure -- I don't want to "spread the word" and then have it discovered that I haven't been successful, or I haven't met someone's definition of losing weight in a proper time frame, etc.

It's something that I generally like to keep to myself :) I choose who I let in on it, and those are usually the people who are there to unconditionally support me (family, best friends, etc). Everyone else... coworkers, acquaintances, passers-by... they can mind their own for now :D

freedomreins 02-05-2008 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suitejudyblueeyes (Post 2039500)
I think it's because I'm insecure about my weight/appearance to begin with, and when people know what I'm trying to do, it puts the focus on the very thing I'm trying to get out of the spotlight. I don't want people to think about the fact that I need to lose weight -- I think about that and that's enough. They're just there to work with me, not talk about my body.

This is exactly the reason I don't like telling people. It does embarrass me a little. I have lost about 13 pounds and because it's not super noticeable, sometimes I think people might not believe me. I told one of my best friends the other day and she was really surprised (in a nice way) and then we had a discussion about the beloved mini-stepper, as after I glowed on about mine, she bought last year. If I fail (which I won't this time!!!) I don't want people to think that I wasn't able to do it or that I am destined to be a bit chunky and have no dedication. I am doing this for me and not for other people, so generally I don't tell them. My housemates know and just chuckle, in a light-hearted way, when I weigh my potato chips or eat a WW meal, but it's working and that's what counts.

aerotigergirl 02-05-2008 06:02 PM

Quote:

There's just no hiding it for me...just this weekend we went to a family baby shower and he brought his digital scale with him:lol: when it was time to eat he yelled across the house asking me how many "points I wanted to spend"
OK, ChunkyDunker, this is just too hilarious. At least you've got a great support system and an excellent sense of humor! :)

I feel like the policing thing is probably the worst, and I didn't even mention it in my initial post. I couldn't tell you how many times (even as a child) people said to me "do you really think you should be eating that?" It's humiliating! And if I am having something that looks yummy, don't assume it's bad for me, and even if it is, I have allocated points for it that day, so just butt out! :mad: OK. Rant over. :)

But you all brought up another great point, as well. Eventually, it will become more and more obvious (here's hoping, right) that I'm losing. At that point, people may begin to ask me about it. What do you do then? :?:

Lovely 02-05-2008 07:16 PM

I don't advertise it. Just the very few close people who need to know so they don't think I'm crazy-go-nuts.

It comes down to it being a part of my life, but not my whole life. So I don't want to be "that fat chick on a diet". And, really, that many people can't care. If a co-worker came up to me and said "I'm on a diet", I'd say "That's nice, best of luck."

I haven't had ANYONE notice. This is both amusing & disappointing. I figure, another 50 lbs and someone's got to at least have noticed even if they don't say anything. If someone does ask, I may briefly tell them "eating less, exercising more."

kelijpa 02-05-2008 08:03 PM

Unfortunately, I've been through this a few times, so I've been through the not wanting anyone to know part and wanting to share my joy part. When someone would ask how did I lose the weight, I'd say "I'm sorry to tell you, I ate less and exercised more, there's no magic bullet" :D

This time we had the @work program and my new co-worker who was getting married talked me into joining and trying again. She was just so upfront about it to other people in the office when we went to meetings and started walking, I started thinking, what is the big deal. This is part of me, like Faerie says, it's not all of me, but it is part of me. It's my lifestyle.

I felt that insecurity, like I don't want to tell anyone in case I don't do it right, or quit again, but now I feel very secure that success is on the horizon, I have changed my lifestyle.

I'm not shouting on the rooftops that I'm a WeightWatcher, but if someone asks me how I'm doing it, I tell them WW. I figure they're looking for help and this is something that works. Maybe I might inspire them to live healthier, who knows. I'm getting older, too, and like my mother, the older I get the less I care what other people think about what I do.

Everyone has their own way of dealing with the journey, we each have to find what we're comfortable sharing with others. I've gotten where I take my slider out in the grocery store and figure out the points for some things when I'm deciding whether to buy or not. I used to feel funny about that, but there's alot of things other people do that has me wondering what the heck they're up to, so let them wonder what I'm doing!

I'm proud of you all! You're doing what you need to do for yourselves.

TheBabies 02-05-2008 08:37 PM

I agree with kellijpa. I don't want anyone to know because I don't want them to start looking at what I'm eating (whether healthy or unhealthy) and asking. I think it's a private issue/battle that I have with my weight. A few coworkers know because I joined at work but they don't ask any questions.

In a bizarre moment of openness, I told my parents and sister. Now, they ask about it all the time. I finally told them that I don't want it to be a topic of discussion. It's like when I quit smoking (both times) -- I'm a private person and it's a private thing.

emiloots 02-05-2008 08:50 PM

You know, it's funny, I lost ~30 lbs doing Weight Watchers and kept it off for 2+ years prior to getting pregnant. Back then, I didn't mind if anyone knew I was dieting or watching what I ate. I really think the reason I wasn't embarassed was because I was very successful in a fairly short amount of time and maintained my slimmer self well.

This time around (postbaby) I'm really struggling and don't want people to know I'm dieting outside of my DH and one or two close friends. I think the reason I don't want to spread it around is because I'm really struggling, I keep gaining and losing the same 3 or 4 pounds. Committing and sticking to a diet has been really hard; I've been starting and restarting trying to lose this weight over the last few months. I'm embarassed because I don't want to seem like I'm "crying wolf", you know the girl who's constantly on a diet but never seems to lose weight.

beachbabe8406 02-05-2008 08:56 PM

I haven't felt so bad about telling people. If I don't know the person I get a little embarrassed, but usually I am okay with telling people all about WW and how it works. I get really excited over the whole points formula and calculating points that I have actually gotten other people to look at their nutritional information on foods they were eating and calculate how many points they were eating! :) Sometimes when I get ebarrassed I will tell people that I am a self proclaimed diet queen since I have tried every diet under the sun.

Just keep your eye on the prize and stay excited... that will show people that you have the confidence to diet without shame!

Manick 02-06-2008 02:29 AM

Oh man...I feel this topic! I am in the camp with those that have done this before and am back again. I am really embarrassed that I let myself get to this point. I was dating DH and he LOVED to eat and loved to take me out to eat...and well...after 3 years of what I call the non-stop-happy-party I am back up there!!! Ugh. I hope that I will look back at my wedding pictures with sort of a bitter sweet feeling...the most wonderful day, but I can't believe I was SO big!

Anyway...THIS time I have actually told a few people. I am annoyed that my mom monitors what I eat whenever she is around to see it, and obsesses about what she could or should fix food-wise if we come over to her house, she is a lifetime skinny person, but is married to my dad who IS not. My mom tries to be understanding and I know she means well, but lets face it, if someone has NEVER been obese, they really cannot understand what it is like.

WW did work for me before and I KNOW it will work this time. DH is supportive and has to eat WW meals with me at dinner so he is on board. My SIL has lost and maintained a loss of 70 lbs for over 7 years so she is good support. And I am posting honest, soul-bearing stuff on this board and the WW boards for the first time in my life. Having been a private person all my life I figure that might be part of my problem, I am too private...and I have been over-eating in private... so at least here, semi-anonymously, I am putting it out there! I have told one close girlfriend but I am absolutely closed mouthed at work. They saw me lose before and gain it all back...and I just want to do what I need to do with no comment.

When I looked dramatically different before (having lost 70 lbs) I did say...it is hard work..eating less, exercising more. No magic pill. I would not and will not tell people "how much" I have lost. For some reason people think that is an acceptable question to ask someone.

Anyway, good luck to all on your renewed determination to succeed!

AnnCan1111 02-06-2008 07:33 AM

Wow I can relate to all of these post. I was embarrassed at first and didn't tell anyone. It was after people kept pulling me aside and asking me if I was very ill because I was losing so much weight, I realized I would much rather tell them about my healthy new lifestyle than have them pray for me and my family and my new illness that I wouldn't disclose to anyone. It was hard to convince people I meant to lose weight. I know I was embarrassed in case I couldn't do it. I know that when I am struggling with losing weight, and people are trying to help me lose weight I think oh man why did I tell anyone.
I also find that people often tell me to buy Alli, and other weight loss products. I have to keep remembering that eating less, and moving more is and will continue to work for me.
Good luck to everyone.

Jane 02-06-2008 09:36 AM

I'll say I'm on WW, but won't say how much I've lost.

I learned a lesson from last time I lost, which was 85 pounds, 4 years ago. I saw an aunt at a funeral, and I hadn't seen her for years. When someone standing near us asked how much weight I'd lost, and I said 85 pounds, my aunt said, "Oh my God! How much did you weigh BEFORE!" I told her I don't give out that info, and left her standing there.

So, yes, if it comes up, I'll mention I'm on WW. In real life, I tell only those close to me how much I've lost. Here on the boards, it's different. :hug:

noodlebean 02-06-2008 10:03 AM

Wow. I just wanted to chime in and say I completely agree with what so many of you have said -- I share all these insecurities, worries about people wanting to get up in my business, etc. I totally feel embarrassment and even shame about letting my weight get to this point, and I agree with what a few of you have said about bringing up weight loss and having the thing you want most to hide/ignore be brought into the spotlight.

At the same time, it's a weird conflict, because I think most people would be really supportive of my weight-loss efforts and would be happy to know about them, but I don't really feel inclined to share. Interesting!!!

dali78 02-06-2008 02:36 PM

Yeah it sucks at first. I sucked it up after a while. I can't hide the fact I am fat, so I am not hiding the fact I am trying to become healthy. Don't worry what anyone thinks. At least you are doing something about it. That's awesome!

kelijpa 02-06-2008 06:02 PM

It's funny what people think is ok to say or ask other people. For the longest time, when I was in my 20s and 30s people kept asking "when are you getting married? having kids?" I'd say when I meet the right guy, well, I was 39 when I got married, so that was quite a few years of that!

When I had lost the weight and then gained it back there was one guy at work who said a few times to me "I see you've put some of that weight back on" erg... Recently a guy said to me "It looks like you lost some weight, that's good, as long as you don't get crazy with it" I said "thanks, I'm staying healthy that's why it's taking so long".

But I think, I never say anything like that to anyone, why do some people feel the need to say out loud whatever's in their brain...

I do find that this time I don't feel like saying the exact number of lbs. I've lost is necessary, I guess I had to learn that just because someone asks you a question, you don't have to give them a specific answer. You'd think after 40+ years of reading Dear Abby and Miss Manners I'd have figured that out...

:sunny:

aerotigergirl 02-06-2008 06:20 PM

True words, Keli! Some people seem to have been born without the filter that is supposed to go between brain and mouth.;)

imsoocute 02-07-2008 07:25 AM

OMG I agree with all of you!

It's no secret that I'm fat. And it's no secret that I need to lose weight. Anyone who LOOKS at me knows that. So don't you think I know that TOO? I hate when someone, especially FAMILY MEMBERS (it's ALWAYS family I swear) tell you that you need to lose weight. It's like "NO ISH! Really? LAK OMG I DIDN'T KNOW!"

I have this one uncle, every Christmas, Thanksgiving, or other family event whenever I am getting my plate of food he is always like "What is this? Your second plate?" Or be like "No, no... you don't need all that!" Or some crap. It's HUMILIATING. He does it in front of EVERYONE. He's NATURALLY skinny. He'll probably NEVER be fat, even if he TRIED. Not everyone is like him, or his kids... not everyone can just "be skinny".

And what I hate when is when "skinny" people tell you that you need to exercise when THEY don't even exercise. If they're not motivated, what makes you think I should be? Practice what you preach. And just because you're not fat, it doesn't mean you're healthy.

So when I try to lose weight I hate telling people. I don't want anyone's comment, or advice. I rather them I think I don't care that I'm fat and that it doesn't bother me. Or just see me lose the weight. Even when people ask me if I have lost weight I just say "NO" and move on.

girl anachronism 02-07-2008 05:49 PM

I definitely used to feel this way. I used to feel like letting other people know I was trying to lose weight was acknowledging I knew I had a flaw. I had a lot of trouble doing that. But I also failed at losing weight every time.

So this time, everyone I know knows I'm trying to lose weight. So I can share my struggles and victories with them. Plus, it makes me so much more accountable. I'm really happy I've been open about it this time.

LizzieW 02-08-2008 04:33 PM

Great thread -- and wow, can I relate to so much of what many of you have said!

I'm telling very few folks...and not going into any detail, either. My size is just a personal thing to me, however visible it is to the public. I don't want monitoring (except from hubby who isn't formally dieting, but is enjoying the "eating healthier" part -- he helps me when I'm waffling and weak) and I don't want to give progress reports. I'm trying to limit my "public" discussion to stuff around just needing to get in shape for work I've got planned for this year. I figure if I limit the conversation to "getting healthy," the issue of pounds/diets/fat should be side-stepped.

(Years ago, when I'd lost my post-baby weight, a colleague actually asked me if I'd been seriously ill -- as if I couldn't have worked hard to lose the weight! Sheesh, people can be so...off.)

My bottom line (hee-hee) is that my weight is nobody's business. And I'm only sharing my journey with people I trust!

colneen 02-08-2008 05:12 PM

I get embarrased when people start to notice that I'm shedding pounds. I want to be able to loose it without them knowing, which does'nt make sence really. I'm a big girl and sooner or later they are going to see the difference. Problem is once they do they are watiching you like a hawk and contantly asking how much I've lost. I should be happy that they care enough to ask but I've failed so many time in past efforts so somehow it's unwanted attention.

kelijpa 02-13-2008 05:51 PM

Funny, today so many people seemed to be noticing my WL, I wanted to just say "quit looking at me!" A few asked how many lbs. I lost, I still find m uncomfortable saying how much I lost. I feel like, this is me now, what does it matter about how much of the old me is missing. Does that make any sense?

I have no problem with telling them WW, but I feel funny saying how much, I said about 30, but I feel kind of on the spot when I have to come up with a number. And of course, got a couple of those "you're getting too skinny" funny, my bmi still says I'm overweight, I just got out of "obese" recently and now I'm too skinny??!!

When I was talking to my friend at lunch, I said "they don't know what's under my shirt" we were laughing about that.

DH says overweight has become the norm, so people don't know what normal size people are supposed to look like.

I just feel like all of sudden I'm under a microscope, like now I'm going to be anorexic, no chance of that :D thanks for letting me vent!!

:sunny:

diet diva 02-17-2008 11:36 AM

I feel your pain! I work with a bunch of skinny people that say things like "it what you put in versus put out" "it's easy" it's not hard". I'm getting better at it not hurting as bad, but there are days! We all have to keep going and remember it is for US and our well-being, not there's!!! This is my turn to prove that I can do it!!!!

Phillygirl2 02-18-2008 01:12 AM

Quote:

No one seems to get it's all about balance, not about deprivation.
This is what I would have posted. The thing people don't realize is that Weight Watchers is not really a diet, it's how you should really eat! Hubby saw me eating Frosted Flakes one night and said the "Should you be eating that" thing, and I explained to him that not only had I planned for this little treat before I went to bed, that Frosted Flakes have no fat, and the FF milk was a requirement. He was stunned.

Four years ago when I lost 25 pounds in six weeks without telling anyone I was on WW, a co-worker finally asked me if I was losing weight. I don't know why I was embarrassed, but I was! I guess it has to do with being embarrassed that I had to lose it in the first place.

I treat WW like I do the 12-step program I'm in. People who need to know, do, and others just don't need to know.

The worst offender is my MOTHER! I'm 56 years old and feel like 12 when she starts. "Maybe you should just eat less points." She just doesn't understand the concept. And I hate it when people know and they ask "How are you doing on your diet?" That's why I choose very carefully who I tell. Unfortunately, I told my mother and that's the first thing she says every time she calls me now.:rolleyes:

A few years ago, I was at a picnic at my sister's, and her mother in law saw me with my plate and a diet soda. Now, this woman and her entire family have been morbidly obese their whole adult lives, have never made an attempt to lose it, and she says to me "Oh, I think it's really funny when people have a big plate of food and a diet soda." Well, first of all, it WASN'T "a big plate of food," and secondly, why add 200 calories to a meal if you don't have to? I really wanted to punch her.

There, that's out!

No, wait, there's one more thing. Know that commercial where the couple both lose weight by cutting out fries and eating salads instead and he loses weight all over and she only loses her boobs? That's me! Although I've only lost 12 pounds so far, I swear 6 of it was from my boobs! My husband can ANNOUNCE he's going to lose weight, and two weeks later he's ten pounds lighter!

rachinma 02-18-2008 09:46 AM

I think people just generally lack tact.

Why say, "Oh my god! You've lost SO MUCH weight!" to someone? Really. First of all, I've only lost 22#. Second of all, wouldn't it be more appropriate to simply say, "You look really good. Are you doing something different?"

People suck.

Amy8888 02-18-2008 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emiloots (Post 2039840)
This time around (postbaby) I'm really struggling and don't want people to know I'm dieting outside of my DH and one or two close friends. I think the reason I don't want to spread it around is because I'm really struggling, I keep gaining and losing the same 3 or 4 pounds. Committing and sticking to a diet has been really hard; I've been starting and restarting trying to lose this weight over the last few months. I'm embarassed because I don't want to seem like I'm "crying wolf", you know the girl who's constantly on a diet but never seems to lose weight.

I was coming to post that in many ways, I was the opposite of you. I have always had a weight problem, and I was SO ashamed of it for years. I finally lost a bunch of weight on my own about 7 years ago and maintained pretty well until I got married. I was still very ashamed about being overweight and didn't want to tell people when I was trying to lose weight.

Then I got pregnant. For the first time in my life, I was gaining weight and I was SUPPOSED to be. I was being weighed monthly and eventually weekly. I didn't like it, but I wasn't ashamed of it. Then I got pregnant again after my girl was born, and now I'm carrying the weight from two babies. So I don't really mind telling people I'm on WW. I guess I feel I can always default to "You know, to lose the baby weight."

And I come from an overweight family, so they're supportive. My sister has even been on and of of WW...I was excited to hear she joined around when I did (but she quit soon after). But a lot of people at work have been on WW, and I keep finding out more and more people I know are on it. And that's a really good thing...I am always looking for low-point snacks, so when someone knows I'm on WW, they can share what they learn with me.

Finally, I have to ask emiloots, have you had your thyroid tested? I experienced a lot of that gaining/losing the same few pounds and at a doctor's visit for another reason the doctor asked about that, and had my thyroid tested. It turned out to be okay, but it's very common for new mothers to have thyroid issues, and to have these masked by thinking you're just experiencing normal post-partum symptoms. Just something for you to consider if you're really making a strong effort and not seeing results.

fatnflab2fitnfab 02-18-2008 09:05 PM

The only reason I don't want people knowing that I'm trying to lose weight is because I don't want them to think I don't like my body AND I don't want them to confirm what I already know: that I do, in fact, need to lose weight. But the people I'm close with know about it, and that's okay, lol.

Fressca 02-19-2008 12:18 PM

This is an interesting thread... it really made me think.

My problem with WW isn't so much the people I know - I tell some people and not others. Sometimes it makes me squirm a little, because some of those I choose to tell have known me through (many) other weight loss attempts, but my discomfort stems from my disappointment with myself, not because I think they're judging me.

The weirdest thing for me is that I hate the thought that a stranger(!) might see me walking into the WW building, or that I run into someone I barely know while there. What's that all about?

ElayneRae 02-20-2008 01:54 PM

I know exactly what you mean. If it's obvious that I NEED to lose weight, then why is it embarassing to be doing something about it?

I think I am worried about failing again, and people knowing I was actually trying. Rather than just getting heavier and acting like I dont notice or care....

I've done it so many times. I dont want my husband to think, "Gee, we'll see how long it lasts this time."

:^:

tukogirl 02-20-2008 03:03 PM

When I lost the original 70 pounds I hated to have anyone mention my weight loss or ask about what I was doing. For me it was because *I* was in denial for so long about being heavy that starting a weight loss plan was like finally admitting to everyone, and mostly myself, that I was out of control and fat. And then the realization that everyone else knew it all along, everyone except me. That was very hard to come to terms with.

Phillygirl2 02-20-2008 08:30 PM

I just have to chuckle because it's starting to sound just like an AA meeting here!

We are embarrassed to let people know we're on WW because we're embarrassed that we're heavy. We're afraid to see someone we know at a WW meeting (duh, what are THEY doing there?). We're afraid to let people know we're on a weight loss program because we're afraid we'll fail. We hate people asking 'How are you doing on your diet?' We're afraid of letting down our loved ones, when the only one we should be concerned about letting down is ourself!

The difference of course, is that being overweight SHOWS, ALL THE TIME.

Really, we should be proud of ourselves that we have finally taken ACTION! With the support of WW meetings, if you're going to them, or support forums like this one if you can't afford meetings, we will SUCCEED!

mxgirl737 02-20-2008 09:17 PM

I've found that telling people at work has been an advantage to me. There are a few people who would LOVE to see me fail and make snide comments...but the majority of the people I work with are so kind and helpful. They bring me recipes, give me ideas...and today I had three of my coworkers tell me how proud of me they are. There are a few of them that also accompany me to the gym. That said... I can totally understand the embarrassment. I feel that way with a few of my friends. When I tell them (happily) that I've lost nearly 25lbs... they sometimes say things that are sort of rude. I really don't think they mean to be rude though.

Isn't it funny how we can beat ourselves up and call ourselves fat and ugly, question if the diet is even working, ect.---but if someone else so much as whispers any of that to us it's enough to start a war?


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