Bright Angel, the Buddha called this Dukkha, the "unsatisfactoriness" of this life. No pleasure or satisfaction lasts forever--things always change--we want to hold on to something but it moves on anyway.

Jay

Robin, I would easily say that your original post and all the subsequent posts were the MOST helpful I’ve ever come upon. Looking, looking, looking. Wow, I truly get that. Pretty much daily – not all day, just at some point in the day. For me, I have a saying I ask during looking – will I feel better in 5, even 2 minutes from now if I have that ___? Of course the answer is no and I pretend I’m already to that 5 minutes away and bypass the craving. Eventually it falls away to other parts of my life. Occasionally I just say what the heck and have the ___ and when the 5 minutes pass and I want more, I re-ask my question. Usually it stops there. So far on this latest journey it hasn’t escalated but you know that I still harbor that fear. It’s part of who I have been for 42 or my 48 years. I am a food-aholic. I love food and I hate food.

Like most of us, I have lost and gained the same number of pounds for years. When I decided to try again, I made myself a vow. If I couldn’t maintain a loss, I wasn’t going to start. My promise was that I could have everything I wanted. The caveat was I had to log every morsel. Never could it not be logged. That is my rule. My one rock solid rule. Before I started I told my husband about the rule and said he was to ask to see the log (my iPhone) at any point in the rest of our lives because clearly I need help keeping my nose to the grindstone. I don’t know why, but that rule is still as rock solid as the day I started and I occasionally remind DH of his obligation. He now laughs and say he doesn’t need to because I grab my iPhone during breakfast, lunch and dinner and he knows I’m logging.

Bright Angel, I am in the same mind frame as you in regards to healthy vs. toxic foods. I “know” my healthy choices and I strive to making them. But I also know my relationship with the cocoa bean. I love dark chocolate and if I have to live the rest of my life without eating it in moderation, then why bother? Mostly when I step away from the cocoa bean there ‘s an indescribable pleasure in that because I am stronger than the cocoa bean or any of my other favorites.

I don’t have trigger foods that send me spiraling but I know others that do. We all have fat issues but how we ended up there is not the same for anyone. When we find something that works for ourselves, it’s awesome to be able to share it with others on 3FC even though it might be totally wrong for another that stems from a different place.

A side note, Robin. I saw your weight and height and know if I was 7” shorter, I wouldn’t even get 1200 cals to maintain. I lose very slowly at 1340-1400 cals per day and have figured I will get an additional 100-200 per day once my last 3 pounds are gone. When using those so called daily intake calculators, they say I should be able to eat about 2000 cals for my height/weight and activity level. What a crock – I’d gain weight like a banshee. So Robin, don’t ever let anyone tell you differently from what you know about your body. You, like me, are an individual with different caloric needs.

Marie

No no no, it always helps to bring another perspective to the table! The more perspectives we get on an issue, the more we are able to view it as honestly as possible. Your input, even if slightly contrary to what some of us were saying, is ALWAYS helpful.

I know I myself also make nothing "off-limits" but I have GENUINELY noticed that it is these "toxic foods" that seem to trigger cravings in me. I CAN sometimes have a very small amount and be okay, but I've noticed that it pretty much seems to be a formula of amount times frequency.. Having a miniscule sliver of cake (along with lots of healthy food) will NOT trigger me, but having a huge slice of cake will. Likewise, having a miniscule sliver of cake one day, then a miniscule piece of fudge the next day, and then another sliver of cake the next day, that probably WILL trigger me. Yes, it's a small amount, but after a few days of it I start to get my cravings back. I think I can only "safely" have a very small amount once in a great while. I'm not sure if that's the case for others, but it is for me. For instance, I had a very healthy meal yesterday and then a 50 calorie piece of dark chocolate, and I was fine. However, I know if I keep eating one piece of that chocolate every day, in a few days I'll start craving food, so it has to stop at that. Anyone else like that?

For me, "toxic food" means any food that is causing more hurt to our body rather than harm. I don't think it's necessarily a clearcut line between healthy and unhealthy. For instance, peach cobbler... that's not COMPLETELY empty calories, because you are getting the nutrients from the peaches. However, I bet if you take the amount of nutrients in the whole dessert and put it in a ratio (nutrients per calorie), it would be very low. For me, THAT is what I consider toxic food. No, it's not directly harming me, per se, but our body needs nutrients to function. That's why it's suggested not to go below 1200 calories, since our body might not be able to get enough nutrients from less calories. When our body is not getting what it needs, we start to reach poor health. A body that doesn't have enough nutrients will simply not be able to take care of itself properly, plain and simple. In and of itself, I think you can still have a piece of cake but be eating enough other healthy foods that your body can "compensate" and be getting enough nutrients from the other healthy foods, but the point still stands that it's still not BENEFITING from the cake at all. No it probably won't hurt, but it's still not helping your body. That's why I feel that a junk food addiction can be so dangerous, because what happens when you start replacing more and more of the food your body actually NEEDS with foods it's not benefiting from at all? It's TOXIC.
So for me, my trying to rid myself of junk food is not as much that I feel I WILL spiral out of control no matter what (though that is still a fear), but rather that if I really think about it, why would I want to feed my body food that it has to compensate for? I have come to respect my body more than that.

I think that it's great you're starting to figure out your own boundaries. That is never an easy thing to do. I think the most important thing is like what I've seen Meg saying as I read around these forums over the months, that we are all an experiment of one, or something like that, because it's absolutely true. Some of us might take one bite of cake and spiral out of control, while for others it might take others a large piece, while others could have the whole pie and not be left with any further cravings. That is why it is so crucial to try to set up your own boundaries based on your own limitations, not someone else's.

I couldn't agree with this more. I think the main thing is that too much of ANYTHING is a bad thing. Everything in moderation. We all know that water is very healthy, but even drinking too much water can be detrimental to our health, and in extreme cases, even cause death.

Well, there's another good point. Our body NEEDS sodium. I don't see sodium as toxic either, just being something that becomes harmful in large quantities, just like water can be harmful in large quantities.

However, I've come to view the difference as being, like I said, between toxic and non-toxic. Some things are good for us in certain amounts and harmful in large amounts, but some things are are not helpful for us, no matter how small or large the amount. We don't eat a sliver of cake because a sliver is beneficial to our bodies in some way, we eat a sliver because it's not too bad for us if it's just a sliver. To me that's the difference. For instance, having someone who gives you constructive criticism, such as critiquing someone's writing, is very beneficial in small quantities, but it can start to hurt us if there's too much and we are bombarded by it. But just plain old criticism with no basis in reality, such as calling someone stupid, is not beneficial even in small quantities. It is a lot easier to tolerate if it occurs infrequently, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't do small damage. I've come to view toxic food and empty calories much in the same way, and that's why, for me, it's a better thing to slowly take it out of my life. I wouldn't put up with even the smallest amount of abuse in a romantic relationship, so why should I think it's okay for my body to have to put up with even the smallest amount of abuse from food? Don't I respect my body as much as the rest of me? I SHOULD, because it's all I've got, and what goes into my mouth (unlike some aspects of my life) IS in my control.

But what you say about always wanting more is so true. In fact, I do believe that it's possible to become addicted to almost anything, even healthy food, or exercise, and I'm not denying that some people do, but I HAVE noticed that it is the TOXIC things in life that most people tend to get addicted to, and since they offer us no real benefit, that makes them even more dangerous.

WOW. You know, I have to say I never thought of it that way. Honestly. I just get the looking, looking feeling and try not to think about it. But I think if I honestly looked at what I was about to do, and asked myself directly if I will feel better 2 minutes from now if I have that, it might help snap me back to reality. Because I DON'T feel better later, I only feel guilty. I don't think it's worth it.

And robin, yes, I know what you were saying about how you don't have to get to 300 lbs to experience these types of behavior. I guess I just sort of felt guilty, that maybe I had insinuated I knew how you felt, when really I don't, because I feel like you had it so much worse, so I wanted to clarify.

And jay, I'm sorry for jumping to robin's conclusion about what you were arguing. You're absolutely right, not once did you ever say anything about her being deprived on 1200 calories! I'm the one who read into it, and it's my fault. I wholeheartedly apologize. :)

First ... Robin
My sister and I did that to my mother - her's was December 18, mine was Feb 3, that's about 6 weeks (with Christmas in between)! And, one of our best friends got married between us, and another the week after me. All 4 at the same church, all of us in the others' weddings, and a good part of the guest list the same! It's a wonder no one killed all 4 of us. :lol:

Second....

I've been sitting here reading this thread off and on for the last 1/2 hour. . and noticed I've been mindlessly eating a sleeve of Ritz crackers. Arghhh. I took it out because I peeled my orange and it was bad .... ewwww. So we have the crackers here at work. Usually I leave them alone. Okay, I'll have 5, which is 80 calories. My phone rings, I carry the sleeve into my office with me, finish the phone call, resume reading here, and keep eating the crackers...... I stopped at 1/2 sleeve only because I was reading this! They are now back in the common area where usually they live in a cupboard out of sight and don't call my name, but still, that mindless eating jumped out the minute I was distracted. Hate it.

And Marie, you're so right. We are all individuals with different calorie needs. I turn 65 this week. I'm 5'4" tall. I can maintain on 1400-1500 calories, but even dropping down to 1200 I lose very very slowly. Limiting carbs and increasing exercise helps, but I have arthritis and 65 year old joints that have been damaged by excess weight, so I have to be careful of injuries. Still, what choice to I have if I don't want to stay overweight, so I persevere. :) Love this thread BTW. So much good information.

Hey Robin - we finally set a date for our wedding - Feb. 20!!

Robin My 2 cents' worth.

Life is change. Change can be stressful or downright scary.
You have two daughters about to leave the nest, get married, and start their "adult couple" lives. Talk about change!

I usually respond to change/stress by eating badly. Maybe that's what you're doing?

But you are aware of it and you are coming out of it so you have replaced the old bad habits with new ones. Occasionally the old behaviours take over, but you are changing them.

And what an interesting thread!

Dagmar :dizzy:

I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier. It's been a hectic couple of days and I was only briefly on 3fc and didn't have the time to respond to this lengthy and thought provoking thread

I know it's not bulimia or anorexia, but yes I definitely believe compulsive overeating and binge eating ARE eating DISorders. I've often called it an addiction, but either term works for me - addiction, or eating disorder. I suppose labeling it EATING disorder is more apropos. But for me, I'm not a therapist or anything, it's semantics.

Oh Glory I am SO excited for you. That's really soon. How's the planning coming along? That gorgeous dress? The house? Now I know you are into the pics (lucky us) and I can't wait to see yours!!!

Pat, so you can relate to the two weddings thing! Not too many people can. Though I do know of one other person that's experienced it. I think we could/should do a reality show - "Battling Brides". Oy. The sisters (especially the older one and the first to be engaged/married is not liking sister number 2 "stealing her spotlight".

My brain is swimming that's for sure. We went gown shopping and I have to decide which gown I will wear at which daughters wedding. They kept showing me the sample gowns and I said that's never going to get on me, it's too small. Well they were all swimming on me and had to be clipped just so I could get an idea of how they would look in my size. The sales help didn't understand why I thought none of the dresses would fit me. If they only knew...

I found two FABULOUS dresses - the first ones that I put on, no less. I did get emotional there in the store. First of all seeing my daughter in a wedding gown. WOW!! Then the fact that I didn't have to deal with all this being morbidly obese and that every gown not only got on me, but looked fabulous. I've got so many to choose from. I kept thinking what if I were still so fat - what would there even be for me to try on? There were a couple of 1X dresses there. They looked so big, yet they wouldn't have even been close to fitting me had I not lost the weight. It would have been SUCH a nightmare had I not.

Like I said earlier, these weddings were one of the major drives in my losing the weight. And here they are. And I don't have to get *thin* for them. Thank G-d I did it ahead of time THANK G-D.

Umm, stress eating I've pretty much gotten a handle on over the years. Shockingly so. I really don't think that was the issue. I really think I just made some bad choices, let a little of the old me back in and then I was flooded with those old bad habits. It spiraled, brought out that horrible "looking, looking, LOOKING" sensation.

I am happy to report that Tuesday and Wednesday were impeccable. I ate beautifully.

I added something new to my day that's been on my mind. I've been in the mood lately for roasted grape tomatoes, don't know why. They happened to have been on sale this week. I bought them up, broiled them with garlic and salt. Sauteed a large amount of mushrooms and onions. Ate that with a large egg white omlette. Delish. It was just the change I needed, something new to look forward to.

I did have a slight "look-y" feel, Wednesday more so than Tuesday, walked into the kitchen (can you tell I work from my home?) and quickly walked out - look-y feelings squashed. Just like that.

I'm looking forward to today - day 3. That's a big one for me. I am more than confident I will get through the day. I am already relieved and feeling delighted with my food choices and happy to be back on plan - where I belong.

And I have dropped a bunch of the water weight. Did not stop peeing yesterday. I know - TMI, but what HAVEN'T I told you folks?

Thanks again for everything. You folks are the best. :smug:

Robin, I'm so happy for you! I knew that you would be able to get back on track. I so hear you on the gown shopping. That has always been one of my biggest fears--that DD22 would be planning her wedding (an engagement will probably be happening within the next year) and I would be too big to find a pretty dress for me. It's such a peaceful feeling that I know I could find something to wear to any event at any time now.

I'm glad things are looking up Robin. :hug:

I really wanted to comment on a few things I've have read here and I'll try to keep it short and sweet. This whole "eating disorder" vs. "Toxic food" vs. "addiction" thing is very touchy to a lot of people. When I bring up the subject people are usually very grounded in their opinion, and that's okay, but I do want to add a little "food for thought" into the discussion.

What came first the Chicken or the egg?

If you do a little research on the history of eating disorders you will find some interesting information. First off, seem anorexia has been around a LONG time. Historians believe the root of anorexic behavior was originated by the Christian revolution. "Fasting for Sainthood" sort of thing, but I'm sure there were some people who were just messed up in the head too. Some anorexics were also bulimics, but if you were a bulimic, you did not necessarily have anorexia. Anyway, just good old fashion binge eating or compulsive eating as we like to call it today really didn't reach epidemic proportions until the late 1960 - 1970's. Matter of fact that is when all eating disorders became epidemic scary. Interestingly enough that is precisely the same time that High fructose corn syrup (HFCS) was invented, (1967) and MSG (mono-sodium glutamate) although invented YEARS earlier, became a popular food additive in pre-packaged food and bread.

So here is where "toxic food" and addictions come into play, so again I ask, what came first the chicken or the egg? There were small groups of anorexic and bulimics, but morbid obesity was pretty much unheard of until the introduction of these crappy chemical food additives. I believe that toxic foods exist, and looking back through my food logs, every single time I have binged or fallen off the wagon, it has been on food that contained High fructose corn syrup, (ice cream, pop, chocolate syrup, regular salad dressing, ketchup, BBQ sauce, bread and the list goes on and on...) or MSG, or cows milk fats (butter, cream, cheese sour cream). I'm sure the cows were not organic and have been shot up with all types of hormones that make them produce more milk/cream. I can say I binged on healthy foods, but the half chicken I ate once was smothered in BBQ containing HFCS. The salad was smothered in a salad dressing containing all sorts of chemicals, and the block of cheese and crackers both contained massive amounts of MSG and milk fats, the ice cream and chocolate syrup almost the first ingredients are HFCS and milk fats. I have never binged on free range grilled chicken with no additives of any kind and baked potatoes dry without any toppings.

Anyway my point is, there would be no alcoholics if alcohol was never invented, there would be no crack addicts if crack was never invented, and I truly believe there would be no morbidly obese people if food additives and chemicals were never put in our food supply. YES, we can overeat on a pot roast, but ask ANY morbidly obese person what they eat and 90% of their diet will contain some sort of food additive. I did not get to 333 pounds by overeating strawberries and free range chicken breasts and a homemade whole wheat bun. I got fat by eating strawberry ice cream and chicken Alfredo and prepackaged bread.

I never beleived food had this kind of effect on people until the day that our autism specialist requested that we get all "crap" out of our autistic sons diet. At the time he was 4 years old and totally 100% out of control. He was tactile sensitive and would only eat a few food items and unfortunately they all contained loads of additives. We went home with our screaming, fit throwing, hyper active child and removed aspartame, MSG, HFCS, food dyes, and all other chemicals. I made everything from scratch and watched every thing very carefully. I kid you not, within 2 days...TWO DAYS, he was a totally changed child. Hyperactivity GONE, spinning, flapping, GONE. Anyway just wanted to throw that in too. Additives screw some people up...either by making the morbidly obese, hyper, or just plain sick. This is only my opinion, but I firmly believe every word of it! There is TOXIC food. We are walking, talking, sick chemical factories, and when people say that someone can be addicted to alcohol, but cannot be addicted to High fructose corn syrup which is made very similar to the distilling process of alcohol, (and in 1000's of food products) it floors me. Most plain foods are not toxic, but when you start adding in all the chemicals they become toxic.

Yes I have over eaten grapes or watermelon, but I could not ever eat enough grapes or watermelon to gain 190 pounds. First by the 2nd day I would be sitting on the toilet for hours and secondly there are not enough hours in a day to eat enough good foods to gain that much weight....but it only takes me 30 minutes to down 3000 calories worth of cookies and cream icecream containing massive amounts of chemicals and additives.

Lori, thanks for your input, it is really fascinating to read about all of this. In general I am a follower of the whole foods/local foods movement (although I do not stick to that diet 100%) so I'm always interested to hear about different food additives.

The one thing I might disagree with is that many of the foods that people overeat on do not necessarily have to be made with additives. For example, I can buy ice cream made at my local organic, grass-fed dairy, and I will want to eat just as much of that ice cream as I would any other standard store brand ice cream. True, bread from the store often contains HFCS, but I love fresh, homemade bread made from scratch enough to eat half a loaf as soon as it comes out of the oven. To be honest I am more likely to overeat homemade bread than store-bought bread. On the other hand, most morbidly obese people are not eating a whole foods diet, so it may be a moot point.

I do think it is absolutely worth noting that the rise in obesity happened at the same time as the rise in food additives. One chart I would absolutely love to see would be a chart comparing obesity levels over time to computer usage over time. I don't think it's a coincidence that obesity levels have climed much more quickly since the invention of the PC, video games, and the internet. More and more people work at a computer all day, then go home and use their computer, and don't do many active things at all.

Which Dairy would this be? Oberweise Or Trader point Creamery? (My sister lives near your area so I know it pretty well.) Oberweise claims to be hormone free, but low and behold they add copious amounts of corn syrup to their ice cream. Traders Point Creamery claims to be Free-range, but they are more secretive about their ingredients, they don't list allergens, (or ingredients for that matter) on their web site under "nutritional information" . I sent them an e-mail and told them I was highly allergic to corn and asked them to let me know if there was any corn syrup in their ice cream before I stopped by and bought some. I'll let you know what they say... It is all so interesting.

Lori, I was thinking of Trader's Point Creamery. We actually got married there! My understanding was that Oberweis was much larger operation out of Illinois although I admit I don't know much about it. I haven't actually watched them making ice cream at TPC, but I have watched the cows grazing on the field and I know the owners are committed to local and whole foods and grass-fed, hormone-free dairy. The cows are out on the very large pastures all day so they are definitely free-range.

I think there are a couple other brands of ice cream now that sell at groceries with only a couple simple ingredients. I also have an ice cream maker and occasionally make my own ice cream with just cream, sugar, and whatever other ingredients are on hand (mint, vanilla, etc.). It is just as tasty as store brands.

Robin, I just wanted to thank you for starting this post and keeping us up to date on your progress. As a newer maintainer, it is invaluable information. I live in fear of losing control. It really helps to know that if a bad week happens that it doesn't have to lead to a relapse. Your good habits kicked in and you got right back on track. Awesome!

Lori, I have a son with Aspergers syndrome. I'm going to work harder at getting the chemicals out of his diet and see if it helps with his stress levels. His diet has improved greatly with mine over the last two years, but I let him have his snacks sometimes. I think I'll experiment with some days of no bad stuff and see how he feels. Thanks!